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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
This is Liberation?
    #1447751 - 04/10/03 06:47 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Suicide bombing in Baghdad as city descends into chaos
2 hours, 19 minutes ago

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1515&ncid=1515&e=1&u=/afp/20030410/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_worldwrap_030410221828

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Baghdad descended into chaos as ministries blazed and looters rampaged and the first suicide bombing since the fall of the Iraqi regime killed one US soldier.

The attack came just a day after the city fell to US troops and Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime collapsed, offering evidence that die-hard loyalists were prepared to put up fierce resistance.

A US military source said the suicide attack happened in Saddam City, an impoverished suburb in the north of Baghdad.

Another US soldier was killed and 20 were wounded in a firefight with Saddam loyalists near a Baghdad mosque.

Five ministries were on fire in the center of the occupied city and looters pillaged the German embassy and the French cultural center.

US and Kurdish forces meanwhile seized northern Iraq (news - web sites)'s key oil city of Kirkuk, raising Turkey's concerns of an independence bid by Kurdish fighters, who later said they would leave the town in US hands Friday.

US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) made a televised address to the Iraqi people on a new channel named "Towards Freedom," promising that the country's future lay in the hands of Iraqis.

But in Baghdad, where three weeks of bombing to wrest power from Saddam and his regime have shattered communication networks and cut the electricity supply, the message failed to reach its intended audience.

British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon said that an incipient interim authority was likely to be in place within days in southern Iraq,

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) said the military campaign had been waged at a heavy toll, urging the United States and Britain to respect international commitments to maintain law and order (news - Y! TV), amid the anarchy on Baghdad's streets.

"When you think of the casualties, both military and civilian, the Iraqis have paid a heavy price for this," he said. "It appears there is no functioning government in Iraq at the moment."

US troops arrived in Kirkuk to replace Iraqi Kurds fighters who had taken control, according US and Turkish officials.

In a repeat of dramatic scenes in Baghdad on Wednesday, Kirkuk residents toppled a statue of Saddam in the central square after a popular uprising which left Kurds in control.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said US-led troops will find the banned weapons of the Iraqi regime.

"We have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction -- that is what this war was about, and is about -- and we have high confidence it will be found," he said.

In his television address to Iraqis, Bush said: "A long era of fear and cruelty is ending... You deserve better than tyranny and corruption and torture chambers. You deserve to live as free people."

His vow was matched by Blair, Washington's steadfast ally in the 22-day war to oust Saddam, saying: "The money from Iraqi oil will be yours to be used to build prosperity for you and your families."
"This Iraq will not be run by Britain, or by the US, or by the UN. It will be run by you, the people of Iraq."

There was still no news of Saddam, and it was unclear what had become of the man who ruled for nearly a quarter of a century using fear and brutal repression.

But a tip that Saddam was hiding in a mosque led to a firefight between marines and Saddam loyalists along the northern banks of the Tigris River.

Shooting at the mosque and at a presidential palace complex led to the death of a marine and the wounding of 20 more.

US combat helicopters came to the aid of the troops and at least five Iraqi civilians were killed, witnesses said.

The battle was a stark reminder that not everyone in Baghdad was pleased to see US troops in the city.

US troops clashed with isolated Iraqi loyalists and Saddam's Fedayeen paramilitary units in various parts of the city.

"Baghdad is still an ugly place. Many parts of the city are either not secured by US forces and in other parts there are paramilitary forces or Republican Guards," Major General Victor Renuart said.

The car bombing that claimed the life of a US soldier also underscored the dangers facing US forces, Army Major General Stanley McChrystal, vice director of operations of the Joint Staff said in Washington.

"This certainly reinforces the danger that will remain," he said.

Dozens of corpses, including those of children, and burnt-out cars littered the streets of the southwestern al-Dora neighborhood, an AFP photographer said.

The fighting broke the calm that had reigned over Baghdad since US troops poured into the capital to scenes of jubilation on Wednesday, three weeks after the launch of the war on March 20.

Crowds no longer afraid to show their feelings for Saddam's regime ransacked deserted villas belonging to his son Uday and Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz.

With Saddam's regime in ruins, the only comment from any of his former loyalists was from the country's UN ambassador Mohammed al-Douri, in contrast to the stream of defiant declarations over the past weeks.

"The game is over," he said Wednesday.

Elsewhere in Iraq, US forces continued to move north towards Tikrit, Saddam's home town, 200 kilometers (125 miles) north of Baghdad, a US military spokesman said.

In the southern city of Basra, largely under British control since Monday, troops struggled to contain looting, killings and petty crime.

At the holy city of Najaf, senior Iraqi Shiite leader Abdul Majid al-Khoei was assassinated, a spokesman for his London-based group told AFP.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw meanwhile warned Syria against helping what remains of Saddam's regime and urged Damascus to cooperate with US forces in Iraq, after a similar warning by US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Ankara fears Kurdish control of oil fields there could embolden Iraqi Kurds seeking independence and encourage Kurds in Turkey to do the same.

Kurds have allowed oil to flow out of the region and into Turkey, according to press reports.

A member of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan said that about 10,000 of the group's fighters would abandon Kirkuk Friday and leave it in US control.



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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447759 - 04/10/03 06:50 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

It sounds like the fighting isn't over yet, but we knew that already didn't we?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447761 - 04/10/03 06:51 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)



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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1447766 - 04/10/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It sounds like the fighting isn't over yet, but we knew that already didn't we?



The fighting will never be over. Think of all the different factions that want to sink their teeth into the now "liberated" government. Their intentions are no better than Saddam's.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447784 - 04/10/03 06:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The fighting will never be over anywhere. It is still going on in the USA and pretty much every country. Life is full of people struggleing for power and riches. It is our very nature.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1447791 - 04/10/03 07:01 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The fighting will never be over anywhere. It is still going on in the USA and pretty much every country. Life is full of people struggleing for power and riches. It is our very nature.



When fighting is occuring in EVERY country (including ours), doesn't it make more sense to focus on domestic violence?


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1447798 - 04/10/03 07:04 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I knew that was coming. The military CAN NOT do anything about domestic violence. That is the job of the police force. The military can concentrate on one thing and the police on another.
Just because we are doing something over there doesn't mean we are doing nothing here.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1448130 - 04/10/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Although, doing something over there requires money that could be spent here....


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1448137 - 04/10/03 09:07 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

We don't need more money. We need better management of the current funds. Throwing money at a problem rarely fixes it and often just makes it worse.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1448507 - 04/10/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder if "throwing money at corporations" is ever considered to "rarely fix them"? Somehow I doubt it.

With corporate welfare three times the size of welfare for the poor and getting bigger every year it looks like the rich consider throwing money at themselves to be of great benefit.

Lets try throwing money at other things and see if it works as well.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1448562 - 04/11/03 12:06 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lets try throwing money at other things and see if it works as well.



It doesn't work. A quick examination of welfare spending from Johnson's 'Great Society' to the present day is ample evidence. Illiteracy is higher, children with only one parent in the home are more numerous and crime is greater among the lower classes than before all the welfare spending. If you subsidize failing businesses, you are subsidizing failure, you are subsidizing bad practices for the management of their enterprises, why should it be any different in other spheres of life? If you are failing at something, the best thing that you can do is change your behavior. Paying for failure is no incentive to alter the behavior.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1448586 - 04/11/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

"It doesn't work. A quick examination of welfare spending from Johnson's 'Great Society' to the present day is ample evidence. Illiteracy is higher, children with only one parent in the home are more numerous and crime is greater among the lower classes than before all the welfare spending. If you subsidize failing businesses, you are subsidizing failure, you are subsidizing bad practices for the management of their enterprises, why should it be any different in other spheres of life? If you are failing at something, the best thing that you can do is change your behavior. Paying for failure is no incentive to alter the behavior. "

Okay, so we can do it for enron, we can do it for airlines.. but we cant do it for humans. The Illiteracy rate and crime rate has nothing to do with the abundance of welfare spending.. it has to do with the lack of profit that the united states government puts back into the care and safety of its people. Which, regardless of what anyone would like to say, the paltry percentage that we spend on the american people is not nearly enough.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1449300 - 04/11/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, so we can do it for enron, we can do it for airlines.. but we cant do it for humans.



Did you even read my post? Emoting over words instead of trying to comprehend them does little to facilitate understanding. No where did I state or imply that. It IS NOT OKAY to do it for Enron or for the airlines, that was part of my point.

Quote:

The Illiteracy rate and crime rate has nothing to do with the abundance of welfare spending.. it has to do with the lack of profit that the united states government puts back into the care and safety of its people.



To me this seems to be a contradiction. You're saying that spending money on social programs (welfare) is not related to illiteracy and crime rates, but then you say it has to do with the lack of profits (amount of spending of confiscated tax money) that the government puts into social programs (care of its people = wellfare, safety has to do mostly with the military and police). Lets put on our thinking caps shall we? BILLLIONS of dollars have been spent on social programs. What do we have, more fathers who don't stick around to raise their children, increased illiteracy, increased teenage pregnancy, increased crime.

Throwing more money after failed programs is a foolish myopic tendency of many leftists. Has it ever occured to you that there's some negative effects which have resulted from generations of welfare, the most obvious being the disintegration of the black family unit?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449323 - 04/11/03 10:07 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

American corporations seem to be doing ok with the biggest welfare program in history.

Why not try giving the corporate welfare budget to the rest of us for a change? Spending it on the environment, education, health. Hell, even spend it on saving the doomed Rwandan gorrillas and the african great ape population before giving it to some fucking useless corporate director.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1449339 - 04/11/03 10:16 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder just how bad it really is there right now...
im sure all teh media is very one-sided, and makes sure to press images of "happy liberated iraqis'"

Why would the american soldiers allow the looting?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449344 - 04/11/03 10:18 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Welfare sucks. People are responsible for thier own fate. Handing them money someone else earned does nothing to improve thier situation.....welll, it imporoves thier situation, but doesn't make them independant, or willing to change behaviour and work.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1449350 - 04/11/03 10:20 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Doesn't look like that "toppling of the Saddam statue" was all it seemed either. Apparantly american tanks had closed off the entire area and there were only 150 iraqis allowed in. Most of whom had been flown there last week from exile as supporters of the new guy america wants in charge. Forgotten where the link was, if it turns up I'll post it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1449357 - 04/11/03 10:22 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

welll, it imporoves thier situation, but doesn't make them independant, or willing to change behaviour and work.

Depends whether you believe Bush when he tells you all people on welfare are scum who need exterminating. I know many men who have worked harder than any of us will ever know for their entire lives get thrown out of work through no fault of their own. To hear vermin like Bush call them "scroungers" is really beneath contempt.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449389 - 04/11/03 10:38 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Im all for employment insurance, but if you dont end up working, you dont deserve to free-load. In canada here, many people collect numerous checks, or work "under the table" and claim they have no income.

You cannot prevent it from being abused...what about affordable education and stuff like that?! Then its not money, but skills and knowledge for people to help themselves.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1449412 - 04/11/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I'd rather risk 10 freeloaders than one guy who'd worked his entire life be persecuted and forced into slave labour. Or the handicapped be forced into slave labour. Sure it can be abused but so is corporate welfare and for far greater amounts. And you definately never hear Bush say he's going to "crackdown" on corporate welfare.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449415 - 04/11/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

American corporations seem to be doing ok with the biggest welfare program in history.



What, like the airline industry? Only a relative handful of corporations receive help from the government, IF THEY WERE PROPERLY MANAGED THEY WOULDN"T NEED IT. Let them fail like they should if they are badly run.

Quote:

Why not try giving the corporate welfare budget to the rest of us for a change?



So you propose that U.S. taxpayers give out money to slack jaws in Great Britain? Look to your own government to mooch off of.

Oh by the way Alex, in typical form you have changed the topic of the thread in an attempt to further your agenda of hate of the American Government and the American people.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/11/03 11:16 AM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449420 - 04/11/03 10:51 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

See, thats where i draw the line.  If theres 10 freeloaders to one decent person its a failed system.  I think handicapped peoples' family should pay for them too, not me.  And im for abortion.

...but anyways... :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449453 - 04/11/03 11:12 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Depends whether you believe Bush when he tells you all people on welfare are scum who need exterminating....To hear vermin like Bush call them "scroungers" is really beneath contempt.



Does your hate know no bounds? Will you ever stop making things up or is the truth something which you find an inconvenience towards furthering your agenda? Please provide sources to prove that Bush ever said these things that you alledge.

** Edit ** Full quotes, within context of at least paragraphs, preferably the complete text of any speach or interview. Thank you.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/11/03 11:15 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449650 - 04/11/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

in an attempt to further your agenda of hate of the American Government and the American people.

Please do not try and insinuate that not being a rabid right-winger means you "hate" america. I love America and hate to see it's name being dragged through the mud by the people you worship. If anyone truly hates america it is you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449679 - 04/11/03 12:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I love America and hate to see it's name being dragged through the mud by the people you worship.

Your definition of America, however, refers merely to it's forests and canyons and anti-American comedians. By that definition, I could say that I love any country in the world, as all of them have geographical formations that are esthetically pleasing.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449691 - 04/11/03 12:27 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Please do not try and insinuate that not being a rabid right-winger means you "hate" america.



How did I insinuate that? I was referring to your apparent position, this has nothing to do with right wingers or left wingers.

Quote:

I love America and hate to see it's name being dragged through the mud by the people you worship.



You're making no sense (again). Who is it that I worship?

Quote:

If anyone truly hates america it is you.



How do you come to this non-thought out conclusion? How many times have I blamed America for the world's problems versus the number of times you point to American as the cause of the world's ills? It seems that evertime there is something in the world that is not to your liking that you consider it the fault of America or American based organizations or individuals. If find this a very narrow minded and simplistic view.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/11/03 12:28 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449706 - 04/11/03 12:32 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I was referring to your apparent position

Can you find me one post where I state "I hate america"? Link please.


** sorry, I mistakenly hit 'edit' instead of 'reply.' - evolving


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Evolving (04/11/03 12:41 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Phred]
    #1449712 - 04/11/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Your definition of America, however, refers merely to it's forests and canyons and anti-American comedians

I'm sorry but America is a country. A country usually consists of land, lakes and trees etc.

Give us your definition of "America". Do you mean "the american leadership" when you say "America"? Why is George Bush's opinion anymore "American" than Bill Hicks?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449727 - 04/11/03 12:39 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I'm sorry but America is a country. A country usually consists of land, lakes and trees etc.

A country consists of MORE than land, lakes, trees, etc. To you, the ONLY thing good about America is its land, lakes, trees, etc.

Oh, and a dead comedian and a live whackjob (Hicks and Chomsky).

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449741 - 04/11/03 12:42 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I was referring to your apparent position

Can you find me one post where I state "I hate america"? Link please.



It's not necessary to explicitly state it. Your position is clear, you blame America for almost all, if not all of the world's ills. You spout lies and insist that they are the truth. Every chance you get, you change a topic or set up a straw man to lay blame at the feet of America or Americans or American based organizations.

Now, why don't you please provide the quotes of the sentiments you attribute to our president., or are you going to insist on dodging again in the hopes that your lies will go unchallenged.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Phred]
    #1449746 - 04/11/03 12:44 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Well, how long do you want this list to be pink? I like pretty much everything about America. Certainly far more things than I can think of that I dislike.

Once again, what is your definition of America?

Oh, and a dead comedian and a live whackjob (Hicks and Chomsky).

Hang on pink, they're both american. Is George Bush more "american" than Chomsky?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449761 - 04/11/03 12:46 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

It's not necessary to explicitly state it.

Ah....so in other words I've never said it.

Your position is clear

You can make yourself believe anything if you want. Doesn't make it true.

provide the quotes of the sentiments you attribute to our president

It's not necessary to explicitly state it. His position is clear.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449775 - 04/11/03 12:52 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Alex you stated:
Quote:

Depends whether you believe Bush when he tells you all people on welfare are scum who need exterminating....To hear vermin like Bush call them "scroungers" is really beneath contempt.



This is an example of the kind of mindless hate which you exhibit constantly on these boards. Please retract your lies or provide proof to back up your statements.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/11/03 12:53 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449789 - 04/11/03 12:56 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Please retract your lies or provide proof to back up your statements.

This coming from a guy who'se spent the last 5 posts lying that "You hate america and it's people"....

Please provide evidence of your lies that I hate america or the american people.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449790 - 04/11/03 12:56 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

back to the point of the post, do you expect baghdad to become tottally peaceful days after the US begins to occupy it? Of course there's going to be looting. Of course there's going to be some crazy fucks blowing themselves up. Is any of this really unexepected?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: flow]
    #1449797 - 04/11/03 12:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Nope, it's not unexpected.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449812 - 04/11/03 01:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Please provide evidence of your lies that I hate america or the american people.





Here's one sample, you stated:
Quote:

Depends whether you believe Bush when he tells you all people on welfare are scum who need exterminating....To hear vermin like Bush call them "scroungers" is really beneath contempt.




Now, please provide proof to back up your statements about one of the American people, George W. Bush, the American president.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1449827 - 04/11/03 01:08 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Here's one sample, you stated:

Whoa, hang on there. How does wanting americans to be treated with dignity, respect and compassion mean I "hate americans"? It's the complete opposite!

Explanation please!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1449997 - 04/11/03 01:59 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Here's one sample, you stated:

Whoa, hang on there. How does wanting americans to be treated with dignity, respect and compassion mean I "hate americans"? It's the complete opposite!

Explanation please!




Funny, this is what you said:
Quote:

Depends whether you believe Bush when he tells you all people on welfare are scum who need exterminating....To hear vermin like Bush call them "scroungers" is really beneath contempt.



This comes across as a hate filled statement and you have yet to provide any source for your assertion that George W. Bush stated these things.

Source please!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
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Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1450193 - 04/11/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

HOLY FUCK!!! GIVE IT A REST ALREADY....

This is really lame.  I hate reading this petty shit, if you boys want to squabble pm each other, or at least relate it to the thread!...sheesh!... :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1450266 - 04/11/03 03:24 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HOLY FUCK!!! GIVE IT A REST ALREADY....

This is really lame.  I hate reading this petty shit, if you boys want to squabble pm each other, or at least relate it to the thread!...sheesh!... :tongue: 



Perhaps a better way would be for people not to say things that are either distortions or blatant lies.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1450335 - 04/11/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The better way would be for certain people to stop nursing petty grudges.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinearabmobster
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1450341 - 04/11/03 04:01 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

bush is gay


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1450343 - 04/11/03 04:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The better way would be for certain people to stop nursing petty grudges.



No grudge Alpo. Perhaps a better way would be for you to stop feeling attacked when you're asked a simple question.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1450348 - 04/11/03 04:04 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Why not see if you can do as the guy says and give it a rest then?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1450365 - 04/11/03 04:11 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why not see if you can do as the guy says and give it a rest then?



Give what a rest?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1450451 - 04/11/03 04:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

I hate reading this petty shit, if you boys want to squabble pm each other, or at least relate it to the thread!...sheesh!...

Ah, but you see, Azmo, that's the standard Alex123 debating technique. Whenever he gets pinned to the wall on something, he tosses in a completely irrelevant, blatant fabrication in the hopes that he can get someone to respond. Then he twists and dodges and weasels and takes it ever further off-course, quibbling and nitpicking and evading, in the hopes that eventually someone like you will step in and and ask that the thread be brought back on-topic. By that time his original proclamation is likely to be forgotten, and he can slink off quietly and start the same thing again in some other thread.

You think it's tedious? Try to imagine how those of us who have had to observe it for over a year now feel about it.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Phred]
    #1450634 - 04/11/03 06:29 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think I've ever seen Alex back up anything hes been asked to..

wonder why that is.. hm


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Phred]
    #1451530 - 04/12/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Ah, but you see, Azmo, that's the standard Alex123 debating technique

As usual you and your rabid right wing friends standard debating technique is never to address the point at hand and merely flame. I think we're all tired of all it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: This is Liberation? [Re: ]
    #1451535 - 04/12/03 12:05 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think I've ever seen Alex back up anything hes been asked to..

Probably explains why you're an extreme right winger...you're able to believe whatever you want regardless of the truth.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1451624 - 04/12/03 12:43 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Alex, I now it goes against your nature to give a direct answer to a direct question but, what in your mind is a right winger?

Oh, while you're at it please provide sources to back up your claims of George W. Bush's statements.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Evolving]
    #1451626 - 04/12/03 12:45 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Can you give it a rest?

If you want to carry this any furthur do it by PM.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: This is Liberation? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1451648 - 04/11/03 06:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Can you answer a direct question?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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