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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: lines]
    #13527918 -

The drunken thuggery is very attractive in the irish way of life.:monkeydance:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #13528684 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Unfortunately, many of my family members are Sioux and their ancestors did in fact war over land, food, women, and children.  In fact, like most ethnicities found throughout the world, they participated in slavery of their  own kind as well.


Of course. The previous European-American idea of Indian as ignorant savage, has been replaced by Indian as wise, spiritual being. Both are caricatures.


I would have to disagree.  White man living in America thinking he's a superpower is a caricature. 

But then again - if you wish to get into a philosophical discussion about caricatures - everything around you is nothing but a caricature.

We can continue a circular reasoning debate if you wish - but be prepared to have a few facts placed upon the table.

Unless one actually lived amongst the Native Americans at the time the OP is suggesting for discussion, we can really never know.  The only thing we have to go on is historical data - on behalf of the Native Americans as well as The "white" man. 

I suppose then, the real debate would not be over pedagogical issues such as caricatures - but what life is supposed to be about.  Corporate mentality and slave life or free and natural no taxed life.

Unfortunately, the Native Americans engaged in their own type of tax system when conducting trades and such with other tribes...and especially when a young woman got married.

Again - to further the debate of the OP - we must set down a definition of "just" or "justice."  Without that - there is really nothing to debate.

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: ThaBoas]
    #13528923 -

ThaBoas said:
Unless one actually lived amongst the Native Americans at the time the OP is suggesting for discussion, we can really never know.  The only thing we have to go on is historical data - on behalf of the Native Americans as well as The "white" man. 



I've lived among them, heard their stories and read the white man's lies.  If you want an opinion from the Native American perspective don't be too shy to ask.


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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13528933 -

The deal through all of human history is the fight for territory and the winner gets the spoils.  Everything else (unfortunately) is sour grapes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Icelander]
    #13528941 -

For some, not all.  If you're white with white thinking it's common to see others as we/they are.  To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.


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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13529042 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
I've lived among them, heard their stories and read the white man's lies.  If you want an opinion from the Native American perspective don't be too shy to ask.


That got my attention -- I'd be curious to hear anything you care to relate to us.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: laserpig] * 2
    #13529086 -

To sum this thread up:

White men killed white men.
White men killed Indians.
Indians killed Indians.
Indians killed white men.

From these facts we can easily deduce moral superiority.


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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13529104 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
For some, not all.  If you're white with white thinking it's common to see others as we/they are.  To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.



Not sure what you mean here.  The point I was trying to make is that fighting for territory is common among human primates in all times.  Before the white man the tribes were jockeying for the best hunting grounds.  What was so ugly about the white man imo was he lied when his true goal was to rub out every threat to his dominance and had no real desire to share any of this land. The white man has no concept of balance and sees everything in black and white.  I believe this is basically still true today.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Icelander]
    #13529135 -

White man's motto is "We've gone too far? Oh yeah? Or have we gone not too far enough?"
Crazy fuckers.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: laserpig]
    #13529238 -

Our motto is :  "Too much is never enough"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Icelander]
    #13529260 -

Icelander said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
For some, not all.  If you're white with white thinking it's common to see others as we/they are.  To a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail.



Not sure what you mean here.  The point I was trying to make is that fighting for territory is common among human primates in all times.  Before the white man the tribes were jockeying for the best hunting grounds.  What was so ugly about the white man imo was he lied when his true goal was to rub out every threat to his dominance and had no real desire to share any of this land. The white man has no concept of balance and sees everything in black and white.  I believe this is basically still true today.


All true except for this:

Quote:
Before the white man the tribes were jockeying for the best hunting grounds.


What was true for some wasn't true for all.  We only think that way from a white perspective.  Introducing our minds to certain Native authors may help to change that.  A good start would be Vine Deloria Jr.


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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: Mr. Mushrooms] * 1
    #13529355 -

Once again, you 'win'. In every single one of these threads you brush my historical references (such as The Beaver Wars et al) aside as valueless.

Your sayso and personal bias trumps any facts. :congrats:


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13529505 -

Quote:
ThaBoas said: I think that we shouldn't forget that the Native Americans stole land from other tribes - food, women, children..etc.


Mr. Mushrooms said: We covered that.  It is a lie.


I don't think that's been established, especially WRT the Beaver Wars.

I had not heard of these until just now looking it up.

Are you claiming that the Beaver Wars never happened? Cuz it seems pretty conclusive that ThaBoas' comment is true, not a lie. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Diploid]
    #13529576 -

The Beaver Wars also references the LA Porn studio in-fighting in the '70s. :yesnod:


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Re: Just Sioux Me [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13531443 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Once again, you 'win'. In every single one of these threads you brush my historical references (such as The Beaver Wars et al) aside as valueless.

Your sayso and personal bias trumps any facts. :congrats:


If I had said, "What was true for some Natives wasn't true for all people" would it have made a difference?  How could anyone with a smattering of Native American history conclude that no tribes warred with each other?  I have never said that.  Perhaps a personal bias is getting in your way.

And I'm not interested in "winning" anything.  That would be someone that is competitive and that wouldn't be me.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Diploid]
    #13531465 -

Diploid said:
Quote:
ThaBoas said: I think that we shouldn't forget that the Native Americans stole land from other tribes - food, women, children..etc.


Mr. Mushrooms said: We covered that.  It is a lie.


I don't think that's been established, especially WRT the Beaver Wars.

I had not heard of these until just now looking it up.

Are you claiming that the Beaver Wars never happened? Cuz it seems pretty conclusive that ThaBoas' comment is true, not a lie. :shrug:


No, if you interpret ThaBoas statement to mean [all] Native Americans stole land from other tribes that would be incorrect and a lie.  The preposition "the" can mean that.  If he meant otherwise he should have some "some."  That would have rendered a different interpretation and I would have readily agreed.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #13531606 -

Its also important to consider the size at which things occurred. Native American tribes did go to war against eachother but they were tribal skirmishes. No tribe of natives went through the country slaughtering all the tribes and putting the survivors in concentration camps which is what the USA government did. When Europeans fought against eachother they didnt do that either.

Comparing the treatment of the natives by the USA government to the way the tribes treated eachother is just nonsense. Are people really making this argument in a serious way or are they just being silly on purpose? I can't even believe that some people are even trying to make that case. Are these people serious?


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http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/brahmacharya.htm

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: lines]
    #13531632 -

Well said.


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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: lines]
    #13531795 -

lines said:
Its also important to consider the size at which things occurred. Native American tribes did go to war against eachother but they were tribal skirmishes. No tribe of natives went through the country slaughtering all the tribes and putting the survivors in concentration camps which is what the USA government did.

I'm pretty sure they enslaved many individuals from foreign tribes; if they were able to put them in concentration camps, and if doing so benefited them, they probably would have.


lines said:
When Europeans fought against eachother they didnt do that either.

Because doing so would've ended up in total war--Native Americans weren't as much of a risk to Americans as any given European nation was to any other European nation.


lines said:
Comparing the treatment of the natives by the USA government to the way the tribes treated eachother is just nonsense.

Not..really; the only difference is the US was able to do more because they had more resources and advanced technology. Had the "Natives" been in the same position, they probably would've behaved similarly.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Who Was Just? The American Indian Tribes Or USA Government [Re: lines]
    #13531859 -

Native American tribes did go to war against eachother but they were tribal skirmishes. No tribe of natives went through the country slaughtering all the tribes

The wars were brutal and are considered one of the bloodiest series of conflicts in the history of North America. As the Iroquois succeeded in the war and enlarged their territory, they realigned the tribal geography of North America, and destroyed several large tribal confederacies—including the Huron, Neutral, Erie, and Susquehannock—and pushed some eastern tribes west of the Mississippi River, or southward into the Carolinas. The Iroquois also controlled the Ohio Valley lands as hunting ground, from about 1670 onward, as far as can be determined from contemporary French (Jesuit) accounts. The Ohio Country and the Lower Peninsula of Michigan were virtually emptied of Native people as refugees fled westward to escape Iroquois warriors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaver_Wars


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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