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Offlinerommstein2001
Rise ye Must!
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Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 3,180
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government
    #1195839 - 01/06/03 08:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Every form of government rests on violence, and is therefore unnessessary and wrong... my favorite quote. True freedom shall never be found so long as wherever you are in this solar system a government has at least some control over you.


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
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Re: government [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1195847 - 01/06/03 08:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Right on bro....

The basic tools or our american government is incarceration or outright death. Those are the ultimate forms of coercion.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
\/\/¡†¢h |-|øµ§³ ¢å†
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Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 2,473
Loc: The Shadow of Neptune
Re: government [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1195897 - 01/06/03 08:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

It is my belief that our government was set up with good ideas, good intentions.
As Mr. Mushrooms has said, the "founding fathers" were marijuana smokers.

I conjuction with that belief, I also think that over the years our democracy has been unwittingly hijacked.
I know that sounds bad, but I'm not as paranoid as that statement may make me seem.

Human error is a bitch aint it?


Edited by dee_N_ae (01/06/03 08:45 PM)


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OfflineCrowHeart
No one

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 90
Loc: Cast?lo da Maia, Maia, Po...
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Re: government [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1196375 - 01/07/03 12:45 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Are you talking about anarchy?


Anarchy eventually will lead to violence, it's not a questionos government form, it's a question of humas nature... A government doesn't work because some one is mor intent on personal goals than on helping the constituents...


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What the hell am I supposed to write here???


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Anonymous

Re: government [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1196729 - 01/07/03 05:38 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Wrong, anarchy will lead to peace. Human's are strangled by the straightjacket of laws and government. Citizens are taught that government is the highest morale authority. The truth that it is within each of us, and when power is eliminated, people will treat fellow humans with respect and love.
Anarchy was achieved once before, but was destroyed by greed, hate, ignorance...all from a government that was doing the "right thing". I'm talking about the native americans.... here are the words of Thayendanegea (Mohawk)

"In the government you call civilized, the happiness of the people is constantly sacrificed to the splendor of the empire. Hence the origin of your codes of criminal and civil laws: hence your dengeons and prisons. We have no prisons; we have no pompous parade of courts; we have no written laws; and yet judges are as highly revered amoung us as they are among you, and their decisions are as much regarded.
We have no exalted villains above the control of our laws. Daring wickedness is here never allowed to triumph over helpless onnocence. The estates of widows and orphans are never devoured by enterprising swindelers. We have no robbery under the pretext of the law."


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
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Re: government [Re: ]
    #1197066 - 01/07/03 08:57 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The native americans didn't live in anarchy. They had tribal leaders. Which is government. The leaders decided when to move, where to go, when to go to war, etc...

Anarchy did exist in the time of the "cavemen". I guess there was "government" to some extent even in these times, in the form of the alpha male, and alpha female of the family unit. I would have a hard time beleiving that these people we're never violent towards each other.

There will never be anarchy. People are pack animals. Someone will always arise to lead the pack. These people will always look out for their interest first and the rest of the packs interests second. Other packs will always come into conflict with your pack. Leading to war, granted not on the level of wars in todays society, but war none the less.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Offlineribbit
up till dawn

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 290
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Re: government [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1197124 - 01/07/03 09:21 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

on the notion gov't

what would you suppose the US gov't should be?
society obviously can't survive in a free for all...

i think the US gov't is great, i don't agree with how some issues are dealt with...

-changes i would make
a. abolish the drug war, reform laws/regs
b. raise the speed limit on I-highways to 75 :grin:
c. eliminate the national debt (its there for a reason, not that we can't rid it)
d. bring our troops home, support NATO. not (US Military World Police)
e. social security/medicare reform (correctly, not one fuck up to another)

**those are the main points***
you get the point


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
Loc: Far away and very near
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Re: government [Re: ribbit]
    #1197134 - 01/07/03 09:25 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

All your main points are good ones (with the possible exception of the increased speed limit :grin:)

points c. and e. are rather complicated issues, easier said than done.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Anonymous

Re: government [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1197384 - 01/07/03 11:03 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"There will never be anarchy. People are pack animals. Someone will always arise to lead the pack. These people will always look out for their interest first and the rest of the packs interests second. Other packs will always come into conflict with your pack. Leading to war, granted not on the level of wars in todays society, but war none the less. "

Yes, there are innate survival instincts in human beings, just like all animals, the difference is with our incredible brain power and a sense of whats right/wrong. I don't look at human nature as a sad truth, but hope of what we can accomplish and what can be achieved. If we can dream a world of peace and total freedom, why can't it be achieved? It might be a longshot and it WILL take a change of thought, but it can be done.

I guess you can consider the tribal leader as a government, but not nearly as concrete as our current system. They respected their chief because of his knowledge of the land and how to survive. He wasn't a power hungry leader that drove masses of individuals to war because he felt it was the "right" thing to do. The indians are the closest example of peace and anarchy and that was 200 years ago, lets look to the future and we can achieve the same thing they had... its just a shame it was totally destroyed =(


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Anonymous

Re: government [Re: ]
    #1197565 - 01/07/03 12:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Keep in mind, Indian tribes, even the largest, were nowhere near as large as even the original colonies (in population). Plus, America has always been very religiously diverse, and religions such as Catholicism, Protestanism, Judism, and Islam do not mix well enough to have a tribal government.


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
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Re: government [Re: ]
    #1197607 - 01/07/03 12:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Still anarchy will never reign for any extended period of time. People need leadership. Without leadership there is no organization, and that will get you nowhere. Someone will always arise from the disorganized masses, to begin organizing people to get shit done. Even if you abolished all government today, things would eventually get back to where they are now.

My point is that there is no society without government and people as social animals need society.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


Edited by 3eyedgod (01/07/03 03:01 PM)


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Offlinerommstein2001
Rise ye Must!
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Registered: 05/10/01
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Re: government [Re: CrowHeart]
    #1198611 - 01/07/03 06:45 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

It'd the media (fueled by government propageganda) that introduced the whole bombs and violence thito anarchy. anarchy is simply living without a strong central government. smaller "tribal" kinds of governments would be used for big crimes...


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Offlinetrippinlizard
gridwalker

Registered: 12/29/02
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Re: government [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1198675 - 01/07/03 07:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

anarchy, while a beautiful dream, would not work, because, as pointed out, people look to leaders instead of to themselves for ideas and direction. if anarchy became a reality, one day we would wake up to find that some terrible crime had been commited and the primary victim (or relatives thereof) screaming for blood. Mob justice would happen. maybe a lynching or beating to death, and the person who was giving direction during the activities would say something along the lines of: "we can't let people get away with this anymore"or"_this kind of people_ have always done these things, it's not right"
and due to thier new found credibility and leadership, we would likely find ouselves with a home grown dictator on the warpath, calling alike thinking people to his side and cutting down any opposition with the words:"repent!"or simply"die!"
even if the regime was put down quickly there would likely be much bloodshed, and if not put down at all, we would have a nice little hostile govt. quietly growing and plotting until one day...
so unfortunately, there will never be socially accepted anarchy, because human nature encompasses hate, greed, fear, and rage, as well as love, compassion, and an beauty.

peace out.


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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
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Re: government [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1198699 - 01/07/03 07:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

As has been touched on here, leaders rise naturally. Alpha males and females exist. They dominate "naturally". I have seen this in action in communities based on primitive living situations. Anarchy, though I love Michael Bakunin
[image][/image]
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bakunin/Bakuninarchive.html

I don't know if it would really work. Might seems to make right and that is the big problem with Anarchy in practice.....


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: government [Re: rommstein2001]
    #1198822 - 01/07/03 07:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"Although we give lip service to the notion of freedom, we know the government is no longer the servant of the people but, at last, has become the people's master. We have stood by like timid sheep while the wolf killed - first the weak, then the strays, then those on the outer edges of the flock, until at last the entire flock belonged to the wolf."
Gerry Spence - 'From Freedom to Slavery'


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: government [Re: Evolving]
    #1198837 - 01/07/03 07:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Great quote Evolving. I think it's very true.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: government [Re: ]
    #1198904 - 01/07/03 08:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Without government there'd be no order. Without order there'd be chaos. If criminals(not all ppl would live in peace n respect to all, although it sounds good) had no laws to be afraid of, then there'd be SO MUCH CRIME. Think of how many women would be raped all account of there's nothing to stop you from doing that unless you had morals. It wouldn't be right.

Dilauded


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
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Re: government [Re: Evolving]
    #1198909 - 01/07/03 08:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's the kinda shit that keeps you in 3 shroom land :cool:

Jerry rules.....

My 10 year old daughter came up with this one-
"Don't be a sheeple, be a real people."

Gotta love the little thinker.....


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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