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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8984949 -

Quote:
that is opinion formed through observation, not evidence imo. 


I thought all evidence is based in observation (i.e. observational science).

I think the chance that Cypher is getting at could also be defined as natural selection.  Meaning that things that can survive will survive and things that can't survive won't.  This, arguably, could be 'by chance'. 

Also, psilocybin could be a remainder of a more powerful toxin or brains could have evolved in a manner that could withstand an overload of 4-HO-DMT.

Another thing that could have saved the psilocybin mushroom from extinction could be cultivation.  I'm sure humans have been cultivating powerful mind altering plants longer than we think.  I mean, indians cultivated peyote in the desert for spiritual awakenings.  Maybe north-western indians cultivated mushrooms for the same reason (I'm obviously not an expert on the regional locations of psychoactive plants).


--------------------

Customize your Shroomery experience!
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Idiot]
    #8985043 -

Idiot said:
I think the chance that Cypher is getting at could also be defined as natural selection.  Meaning that things that can survive will survive and things that can't survive won't.  This, arguably, could be 'by chance'.


I think we need to clarify the distinction between the reason why mushrooms have psilocybin, and the reason why psilocybin has such dramatic effects when introduced to a human nervous system.

The first is probably as a defense mechanism, although the jury is still out.  The second is probably due to mere chance and similarity among common chemical compounds on Earth.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Idiot]
    #8985065 -

Idiot said:
Another thing that could have saved the psilocybin mushroom from extinction could be cultivation.


I was wondering that too. It's possible, but it's a separate issue to the question of why the magic mushroom evolved in the first place. It didn't become psychedelic to make us cultivate it, because that would imply it evolved after human agriculture appeared (ie, not very long ago).

Arden said:
Of course. Didn't you know the appendix is where the body converts psilocybin into psilocin? I thought everyone knew that.


I think you misspelt 'liver'


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: zouden]
    #8985115 -

zouden said:
I'd like to gently remind you all that mushrooms aren't plants.


duhh ! pardon the incorrect usage of words :tongue:

Quote:
>the most probable truth is that the truth is probably far from what our limited minds could imagine.

No, actually, the most probably truth is that psilocin is a defense mechanism. It makes evolutionary sense, it's consistent with the way other organisms work and it requires no theoretical higher being. I'm sorry if this not compatible with your belief system.



i have considered that it may be a defense mechanism.  but i have also considered that there may be much more to it than that.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985141 -

SyntheticMInd said:
i have considered that it may be a defense mechanism.  but i have also considered that there may be much more to it than that.


Like what, though?  Do you have any argument for what "more" there is to it, besides hints of metaphysical generalities?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Idiot]
    #8985220 -

Idiot said:
I thought all evidence is based in observation (i.e. observational science).


the evidence itself is, but when brought into mind is no longer purely evidence.  it gets mixed in with a collection of observations, experiences, interpretations, opinions etc. which make up the belief system.  anyone can take in some facts and think they know something.  but does this take one to an actual understanding of the substratum of existence and its evolving nature?  me thinks it is purely imaginary.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #8985251 -

The Cypher said:
SyntheticMInd said:
i have considered that it may be a defense mechanism.  but i have also considered that there may be much more to it than that.


Like what, though?  Do you have any argument for what "more" there is to it, besides hints of metaphysical generalities?


one argument is the fact that mushrooms can alter one's perception in such profound ways.  that is enough to prove to me that psilocin acts as more than just a mere defense mechanism.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985278 -

A hammer can alter perception in profound and often irrevocable ways.  Doesn't mean that the hammer was intended to do anything but pound nails in.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985295 -

Like I was saying, maybe it was a defense mechanism.  Maybe the brain was introduced to this chemical and was able to use it more efficiently than what it was using.  So animals that ingested non-lethal amounts and produced offspring slowly evolved in a manner which the brain now uses a similar form of the compound.  Introducing a mass amount of the compound into the brain function just produces an over production of what that compound normal produces.  So, maybe, our current brain owes thanks to this 'defense mechanism' which helped it work at its current efficiency.


--------------------

Customize your Shroomery experience!
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985365 -

THC can also alter your perception, but it's certainly a defence mechanism since it has anti-insect properties.

Here's how I see it.

1. Most living things contain serotonin.

2. Serotonin belongs to a class of monoamine neurotransmitters, closely related to the aromatic amino acids. This family includes dopamine, serotonin, tyrosine, tryptophan, phenylalanine, amphetamine, methamphetamine, MDMA, tryptamine, dimethyltryptamine (DMT), psilocin, psilocybin, and bufotenin.

3. Living organisms use the monoamines for different purposes. Some toads, for example, use bufotenin as part of their secreted toxins, as a defence mechanism. Some fungi produce psilocin, possibly also for defence.

4. The monoamines act on various receptors. In humans, MDMA acts on the 3rd serotonin receptor, which controls mood (among other things). In humans, Psilocin, along with LSD, mescaline, DMT and bufotenin, act on the 2nd serotonin receptor, which controls hallucinations (among other things).

5. In other organisms, these same chemicals may act on other receptors, or not at all. The fact that it binds to a receptor in an organism does not indicate it was meant to bind to that receptor - its intended target may be a different receptor in a different organism.

6. Thus, the fact that psilocin binds to a human serotonin receptor can not be used to infer the evolutionary reason for its presence in magic mushrooms.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #8985515 -

The Cypher said:
A hammer can alter perception in profound and often irrevocable ways.  Doesn't mean that the hammer was intended to do anything but pound nails in.


i see your point, but it sounds like nothing more than an escape from what i'm actually talking about.  you are bringing ideas into this discussion that do not relate to my viewpoint, at all.  keep feeding those words though.

zouden said:
6. Thus, the fact that psilocin binds to a human serotonin receptor can not be used to infer the evolutionary reason for its presence in magic mushrooms.


it was not inferred as a reason, but to describe the connection between these two things and how they relate. like stated before this isn't about the coincidence vs. reason duality.  you are mis-reading.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985567 -

You were asked what the "more" was, since you stated that there is a purpose beyond insect/animal repellent for the presence of psilocin in magic mushrooms.  What other purpose does it serve?  Obviously it has an effect beyond that of an insect/animal repellent, but you seem to be claiming that this effect is proof of a further purpose.  Whose purpose?  The mushroom's?

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Arden]
    #8985812 -

Arden said:
It's becoming can clearly be accounted for by cellular evolution, protein synthesis, or survival adaptation among other factors. No shit. But those explanations do not account for why it is extremely compatible with human brain metabolism, why the 4-HO-DMT (Psilocin) molecule so closely resembles endogenous neurotransmitters like serotonin, nor why the experience itself almost consistently induces a transpersonal experience.


The explanations are simple.  As for its supposed "compatibility" well, that means nothing.  Poor choice of words.  Humans can metabolize many chemicals, including chemicals which we've never observed in nature before.  Psilocin is one of who knows how many chemicals that are "compatible" with metabolism.  (If you feel this doesn't address what you mean by "compatible" then you need to clarify what that means).

Why does psilocin resemble neurotransmitters?  20 amino acids serve as common building blocks for all organisms on earth.  It's not remotely surprising that the substances made via biochemical transformations of these building blocks would resemble each other.  (I don't even think that this really requires much of an explanation).

I'm guessing you meant to say that an explanation for why the chemical itself induces a transpersonal experience (doesn't make sense to say that the experience induces an experience).  You want an explanation?  Again: 20 common amino acids serve as building blocks which all organisms use.  Life is very diverse and so it is not surprising that a very wide diversity of biomolecules would exist (consistent with the observation that many biological molecules are structurally similar to their building blocks).  So, this would also lead us to expect that many organisms likely produce biomolecules which are similar to neurotransmitters, which is indeed the case.  Basic chemistry explains how two similar small molecules like psilocin and serotonin can have slightly different effects on the molecules they interact with.  It then also shouldn't be much of a leap to expect that this would also mean that if one of these compounds resembled and hence interacted with the CNS that it might alter how the CNS works.

That's a simple explanation, but it works.  I don't see any reason to think that there is any more to psilocin's existence.

Quote:
As an energy, as an influence, it has always existed in prehistoric sunsets, rain drops, and falling leaves. With the right breeze it came to be, but with the right dosage you can see it has always been.


No.  Pretentious hippy mysticism sucks at explaining things and getting ideas across.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985901 -

SyntheticMInd said:
that sounds like one severely limited assumption, it's kind of obvious it's incomplete and nowhere near accurate.


So, do you have a better explanation?

Quote:
it makes sense that there is a major connection between the evolution of psychedelic mushrooms and the human brain.


So what?  The bare minimum for a scientific hypothesis is that it must "make sense."  The problem is that many scientifically illiterate people seem to think that if a scientific hypothesis is simply logically sound and valid, then it's also correct.  This is far from the case.  Ideas also need to be consistent with evidence. 

Is there much evidence that human beings had a significant impact on the evolution of psiloc(yb)in bearing mushrooms?  Is there much evidence that the genetics of psiloc(yb)in synthesis have been affected by humans?

The same type of questions can be asked of the idea that psilocin evolved as a defense mechanism (to prevent organisms from eating them).  One of the questions would be, which organisms might psilocin help defend the mushroom against?

On one hand, I can see it being possible that initially psilocin did ward off animals and especially humans.  As no organism evolves alone, perhaps one of the evolutionary changes that human brains went through was a shift from finding psilocin aversive to finding it desirable.  This could then be very beneficial for the organism as humans might then start cultivating it.

It might then be that the magic mushroom did not "evolve into existence" but that they existed before humans and that an evolutionary change in humans ended up being beneficial for shrooms. 

I like that explanation, because it's inconsistent with the hippy notions I dislike about psilocin "evolving into existence" to teach people about the earth or whatnot.

Quote:
my guess is that the earth and the human mind are evolving together as some sort of collective intelligence.


I think that's an incomplete idea which is nowhere near accurate (that is, not based on evidence).  Please, if you're going to criticize ideas and suggest that they are rationally unacceptable, then the alternative ideas you offer should at least be rational.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Plasmid]
    #8985902 -

Veritas said:
You were asked what the "more" was, since you stated that there is a purpose beyond insect/animal repellent


purpose... no.

any purpose that i come up with is just going to be imagination.  that includes the purpose for psilocin being merely a defense mechanism.

Quote:
SyntheticMInd said: whether or not they exist for a reason is out of the question. this isn't about one or the other, reason vs. coincidence.  both are two sides to the same conceptual coin. the point is how connected the mind and body are to mushrooms


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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8985946 -

SyntheticMInd said:
it can't be concluded as right or wrong. . . .

 

You do realize that what you've just said is that your ideas are exempt from being concluded right or wrong, but that other ideas are.  That just doesn't make sense.

In a previous post:

Quote:
we're all just imagining things, why fool ourselves by seeming so sure.


What you're doing is providing poor justifications for exempting your ideas from being examined with critical thought.

Quote:
it couldn't just be coincidence that they allow us to experience profoundly out-of-this world states, and that this is just a mere reaction to the "defense mechanism" that psilocin is.  the pieces don't fit here.


What is inconsistent with this hypothesis?

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Plasmid]
    #8985982 -

Plasmid said:
SyntheticMInd said:
that sounds like one severely limited assumption, it's kind of obvious it's incomplete and nowhere near accurate.


So, do you have a better explanation?


any explanation i could give you would not provide you with an accurate understanding as to the underlying nature of evolution and what it is all about.

Quote:
I like that explanation, because it's inconsistent with the hippy notions I dislike about psilocin "evolving into existence" to teach people about the earth or whatnot.


... everything that you see is the result of evolution.

Quote:
I think that's an incomplete idea which is nowhere near accurate (that is, not based on evidence).  Please, if you're going to criticize ideas and suggest that they are rationally unacceptable, then the alternative ideas you offer should at least be rational.


notice how i stated it was a guess.  we all come from the same source, we are all evolving together.  that is all i really meant.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Plasmid]
    #8986045 -

Plasmid said:
SyntheticMInd said:
it can't be concluded as right or wrong. . . .

 

You do realize that what you've just said is that your ideas are exempt from being concluded right or wrong, but that other ideas are.  That just doesn't make sense.


wow...

what the underlying nature of evolution and existence is cannot be concluded conceptually.  if you think it can then you are deluding yourself.


Quote:
Quote:
we're all just imagining things, why fool ourselves by seeming so sure.


What you're doing is providing poor justifications for exempting your ideas from being examined with critical thought.


we have very different ideas of critical thought.  assuming things is not critical thinking imo.


Quote:
Quote:
it couldn't just be coincidence that they allow us to experience profoundly out-of-this world states, and that this is just a mere reaction to the "defense mechanism" that psilocin is.  the pieces don't fit here.


What is inconsistent with this hypothesis?


your ability to understand it.  thinking things exist the way they do because of mere coincidence is a major assumption.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: zouden]
    #8986071 -

zouden said:
edit: are you trying to draw a parallel between the activity of psilocybin and a vestigial organ? Why would you do that?


Maybe he now "realizes" that psilocin adapted as a defence mechanism to a species which no longer exists and hence can be considered a "vestigial metabolite."

I don't know of a reason to think that psilocin is now a molecule which has lost its function in the evolutionary sense (which is to say that the conditions that favored its preservation have since disappeared and so there is no more advantage to producing psilocin).

I do not have a hard time imagining an explanation for the evolution of psilocin which specifically relates to its psychedelic properties (and not just its psychedelic qualities, but more specifically, to it's ability to produce "transpersonal" or "transcendental" experiences).

My question to those who think that such an explanation is the correct one: "So what?"  Wouldn't it just mean that cultivating shrooms has been carried out by humans simply because we seek psychedelic experiences?  IMO, this type of explanation gives psilocin the same kind of significance as morphine, marijuana and alcohol.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Plasmid]
    #8986284 -

unless you want to go into "intelligent design"
which is the least intelligent thing you could do,
there is not any "Why" to Evolution.
there is, however, a lot of "What" to this ongoing process.
searching for a why in any of it is retrogressive, and makes you victim for the likes of george bush and terrence mckenna.
one wants all your money and your children's money, and the other is happy with a bit of undeserved fame.
there is tons to discover about what is happenning and what has happenned without trying to map motivation into the story where randomness and natural life are involved.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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