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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8981287 -

Yet you ignore all the other molecules that DON'T resemble serotonin.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #8981360 -

yeah, because we're talking about mushrooms.

it was an example of our relationship with the world :tongue:

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8982330 -

You do realise that all animals use serotonin? It's nothing unique to humans.

Your post sounds like you didn't even read mine.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: zouden]
    #8982415 -

zouden said:
You do realise that all animals use serotonin? It's nothing unique to humans.

Your post sounds like you didn't even read mine.


i read your post and it doesn't have the slightest impact on my view, nor does it relate.  it reads like a pointless point, or an example of how the mind deceives itself by holding on to repetitious ideas and a stagnant belief system.

what it comes down to is our own personal view of how everything came to be.  we just see no point in each others views and generally do not agree with them.  we're all just imagining things, why fool ourselves by seeming so sure.

and who said serotonin is unique to humans :tongue:

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8982454 -

But when you say
Quote:
being that the psilocin and serotonin molecule are very much alike, it makes sense that there is a major connection between the evolution of psychedelic mushrooms and the human brain.


you're not just expressing your opinion, you're making a claim that can be examined and found to be right or wrong.

edit: the "serotonin is unique to humans" was sort of implied by the statement I quoted. If you weren't implying that, then your logic is faulty.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (09/25/08 03:48 AM)

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: zouden]
    #8982535 -

zouden said:
But when you say
Quote:
being that the psilocin and serotonin molecule are very much alike, it makes sense that there is a major connection between the evolution of psychedelic mushrooms and the human brain.


you're not just expressing your opinion, you're making a claim that can be examined and found to be right or wrong.


it can't be concluded as right or wrong.  there is no way to know for sure why mushrooms are here.  i am simply recognizing not only the resemblance of the molecular structure between serotonin and psilocin, but how symbiotically perfect mushrooms are with the human brain and experience.  it couldn't just be coincidence that they allow us to experience profoundly out-of-this world states, and that this is just a mere reaction to the "defense mechanism" that psilocin is.  the pieces don't fit here.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8982701 -

Quote:
>But those explanations do not account for why it is extremely compatible with human brain metabolism

Because if it wasn't, we wouldn't be talking about it. That, alone, is enough to explain the entire situation.



Wow, we can close this question for all eternity then, huh? Explain your rationale for thinking this way.

Why does evil exist in the world? Because we are talking about it. Why is avoiding radiation good for longevity? Because we lived to talk about it. Why are cornflakes a good source of fiber? Because we are talking about it. Why is the moon so beautiful at night? Because we are talking about it.

Genius.


Quote:
>why the 4-HO-DMT (Psilocin) molecule so closely resembles endogenous neurotransmitters like serotonin

Because that's why it works? Really, there's nothing unusual about this.


Another genius, one sentence answer.

Who said it was unusual, anyway? Certainly not me. But saying this is unimportant is akin to saying all the phytonutrients in plants have no relationship to the diet of mammals, that flowers just happen to have organized color patterns that have nothing to do with bees, that there are no implications about the fact nature is the #1 drug store.

I am not saying some supernatural force is guiding anything, that the mushroom or nature has a hidden agenda, or that evolution is directed towards any intention or necessity. I'm merely saying that Psilocybin has a relationship with humans that exceeds coincidence or randomness.

I thought this became apparent to people after awhile? Geez, eat more.

Quote:
Exactly.  It's like asking; why are the conditions on Earth so perfect for life?  (aka therefore it must be designed that way for a reason.) Instead, it's because if it was any other way we simply wouldn't be here to ask the question in the first place.



So we cannot examine the role of carbon in biological structuring, because if it was any other way, we wouldn't be here in order to examine it? We cannot examine the troposphere, because to begin to do so would already imply it's importance since we live and breathe in it? Do you see where I'm going with this?

I wasn't using intelligent design logic to formulate why Psilocybin resembles neurotransmitters, nor its compatibility with brain metabolism.

Quote:
You do realise that all animals use serotonin? It's nothing unique to humans.


It is also in fruits, vegetables, and mushrooms. Surely the animal and plant kingdom have no relationship to each other... another coincidence, I'm sure.

Lastly, some of you guys would much rather resort to humor than pick a subject apart. It's rather annoying when you notice this trend in nearly every thread in P&S.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Arden]
    #8982797 -

Quote:
Lastly, some of you guys would much rather resort to humor than pick a subject apart. It's rather annoying when you notice this trend in nearly every thread in P&S.

You have to realise that this must be the 10th thread about the supposed connection between mushrooms and humans that I've read since I've been here, and I haven't been here as long as most of the regulars. That said, I am trying to pick it apart...

Quote:
Why does evil exist in the world? Because we are talking about it. Why is avoiding radiation good for longevity? Because we lived to talk about it. Why are cornflakes a good source of fiber? Because we are talking about it. Why is the moon so beautiful at night? Because we are talking about it.

These are pretty poor straw-man responses to my use of the anthropic principle. Cornflakes aren't a good source of fibre because we're talking about it, it's because they contain fibre.

Quote:
[serotonin] is also in fruits, vegetables, and mushrooms. Surely the animal and plant kingdom have no relationship to each other... another coincidence, I'm sure.

If you are being sarcastic, it is misplaced because I'm perfectly aware of the evolutionary relationship between plants and animals. Serotonin is in so many organisms because it's closely related to the amino-acid tryptophan, ie, it's very old. It was present in our common ancestor.

Quote:
But saying this is unimportant is akin to saying all the phytonutrients in plants have no relationship to the diet of mammals, that flowers just happen to have organized color patterns that have nothing to do with bees, that there are no implications about the fact nature is the #1 drug store.

Are you suggesting that hallucinogenic mushrooms benefit from humans consuming them? Yet other animals don't? We don't see cows choosing to eat them all the time, despite being the animal with the most access to them and being the animal with the greatest potential to benefit the mushroom. There's really no evidence for any sort of symbiotic relationship, especially not with humans.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: zouden]
    #8982867 -


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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Arden]
    #8982887 -

?

edit: are you trying to draw a parallel between the activity of psilocybin and a vestigial organ? Why would you do that?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (09/25/08 07:51 AM)

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: zouden]
    #8983028 -

Quote:
edit: are you trying to draw a parallel between the activity of psilocybin and a vestigial organ? Why would you do that?


Of course. Didn't you know the appendix is where the body converts psilocybin into psilocin? I thought everyone knew that.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8983453 -

Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:it couldn't just be coincidence that they allow us to experience profoundly out-of-this world states, and that this is just a mere reaction to the "defense mechanism" that psilocin is.  the pieces don't fit here.


The human mind, being the pattern-recognizing computer that it is, has a very hard time encompassing its concepts around the fact that some things happened just by chance.

The formidable resistance against evolution, and the belief that things are here on this world for a purpose are telling examples of this.  Because so many things we create and use throughout thousands of years were designed for a purpose, it's only logical to assume that the things that were here before us must be here for a purpose--but this is a false inference.

There is no reason why the psilocybin allows us to experience profoundly out-of-this-world states, just like there is no reason why eating oleander leaves will cause you to die.  You have a very biased sample by only selecting those plants that have positive effects on the mind--what about those plants that are poisons or simply have no effect whatsoever?

Unless some new information comes to light, the only reasonable conclusion is that it's sheer coincidence.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #8983463 -

Word


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: Arden]
    #8983704 -

Arden said:


I don't think the presence of psilocybin is a coincidence; there are no coincidences (albeit RAW's "cosmic giggle"). It's becoming can clearly be accounted for by cellular evolution, protein synthesis, or survival adaptation among other factors. No shit. But those explanations do not account for why it is extremely compatible with human brain metabolism, why the 4-HO-DMT (Psilocin) molecule so closely resembles endogenous neurotransmitters like serotonin, nor why the experience itself almost consistently induces a transpersonal experience. This is discussed in greater detail in Ralph Metzner's "Ayahuasca and the Spirits of Nature".

Also, I'm very surprised no one has mentioned Terence Mckenna amidst all of this. He has a few popular / good ideas about it, though people seem to quote him on this particular thesis only because its easier to point fingers at a person of intellectual authority rather than thinking for yourself.

Through the eyes of biological evolution, there is no static state of being, all is in flux. It takes a stretch of the imagination, but the essence of what psilocybin does to our species is not unique, it just happens to be represented in this particular time and space within fungi. As an energy, as an influence, it has always existed in prehistoric sunsets, rain drops, and falling leaves. With the right breeze it came to be, but with the right dosage you can see it has always been.



Nature has quite the chemistry lab.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #8983895 -

The Cypher said:
The formidable resistance against evolution, and the belief that things are here on this world for a purpose are telling examples of this.


it is the belief that the purpose of psilocin is for a defense mechanism that i am against. 

Quote:
The human mind, being the pattern-recognizing computer that it is, has a very hard time encompassing its concepts around the fact that some things happened just by chance.


the human mind has a hard time realizing that "chance" is just a human made concept and has no relevance to what is not of conceptual reality.  it would have been more accurate imho to state this -

Quote:
The human mind, being the pattern-recognizing computer that it is, has a very hard time encompassing its concepts around the fact that some things just don't happen just by chance.


it goes both ways.  we don't know shit, why pretend.  you're just favoring one side of the coin.  the most probable truth is that the truth is probably far from what our limited minds could imagine.  sure, chance could have something to do with evolution.  but throwing it off as just chance is typical of the minds ability to deceive itself.

also, you claim it as fact that some things happen by your conception of chance.  you are mistaking fact for imagination.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8983909 -

I quite honestly don't know why psilocybin is present in magic mushrooms, if we're talking as to what purpose this evolutionarily serves the mushroom.

My sole point of contention, however is your belief that there's some ulterior reason or purpose as to why this chemical causes out-of-body or spiritual experiences.  The evidence points to its interaction with our neurotransmitter system as mere coincidence, nothing else, especially when there are countless other plants and fungii that just as easily kill you or do nothing at all.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #8984112 -

Quote:
My sole point of contention, however is your belief that there's some ulterior reason or purpose as to why this chemical causes out-of-body or spiritual experiences.

 

Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:it couldn't just be coincidence that they allow us to experience profoundly out-of-this world states, and that this is just a mere reaction to the "defense mechanism" that psilocin is.  the pieces don't fit here.


i am against the belief that life has evolved according our conception of coincidence. 

i do not have a solid belief in why mushrooms are here, there are many ideas that come and go and change.  but i try not to hold on to any of them.  these ideas have no relevance to non-conceptual reality or the process of evolution, they are just projected masks.  nor does your belief that things happen just by coincidence.  the major difference here is that you seem so sure of your belief and hold onto it as fact.

i never stated my belief to be fact.  you however did -

Quote:
The human mind, being the pattern-recognizing computer that it is, has a very hard time encompassing its concepts around the fact that some things happened just by chance.


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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8984362 -

We both have beliefs, to be sure.  You believe that mushrooms do not possess psilocybin that interacts with the human nervous system purely by coincidence, whereas I believe that this property exists purely by chance.

However, in my estimation, I have more evidence on my side.  Just look around at all the other plants, and millions of other alkaloids that are present in these plants that have either deleterious effects on the human nervous system, or simply do nothing.  If plants exist on Earth for a reason (namely to interact with our consciousness), then one would expect all plants would do the same.  But since we see all three phenomenon (positive effects, no effects, and negative effects) occurring in plant organisms around the Earth, we can draw a valid logical inference towards the mushroom's effect on our consciousness being due to mere chance and an evolutionary fluke.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deCypher]
    #8984728 -

The Cypher said:
We both have beliefs, to be sure.  You believe that mushrooms do not possess psilocybin that interacts with the human nervous system purely by coincidence, whereas I believe that this property exists purely by chance.

However, in my estimation, I have more evidence on my side.  Just look around at all the other plants, and millions of other alkaloids that are present in these plants that have either deleterious effects on the human nervous system, or simply do nothing.  If plants exist on Earth for a reason (namely to interact with our consciousness), then one would expect all plants would do the same.  But since we see all three phenomenon (positive effects, no effects, and negative effects) occurring in plant organisms around the Earth, we can draw a valid logical inference towards the mushroom's effect on our consciousness being due to mere chance and an evolutionary fluke.


that is opinion formed through observation, not evidence imo. 

Quote:
If plants exist on Earth for a reason


whether or not they exist for a reason is out of the question. this isn't about one or the other, reason vs. coincidence.  both are two sides to the same conceptual coin. the point is how connected the mind and body are to mushrooms, and this isn't excluding other plants. 

Quote:
then one would expect all plants would do the same.


sorry but that sounds like a very baseless assumption.

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Re: Why Has the Magic Mushroom Evolved Into Existence? [Re: deranger]
    #8984869 -

I'd like to gently remind you all that mushrooms aren't plants.

>it is the belief that the purpose of psilocin is for a defense mechanism that i am against. 

Fair enough, the jury is still out on this, and I'm willing to hear evidence against this idea.

>the most probable truth is that the truth is probably far from what our limited minds could imagine.

No, actually, the most probably truth is that psilocin is a defense mechanism. It makes evolutionary sense, it's consistent with the way other organisms work and it requires no theoretical higher being. I'm sorry if this not compatible with your belief system.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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