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OfflineAdamist
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Astrology
    #771096 - 07/23/02 06:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I know most of you don't give a second thought to Astrology, but for those who are interested here is a website that will calculate what position the sun, moon, and planets were in at the time of your birth. It's explanations can sometimes be too general for my liking, so you might want to try Astrodienst too; they also draw charts for free.
Here is mine:
Sun - Aquarius
Moon - Aquarius
Mercury - Aquarius
Venus - Aries
Mars - Aries
Jupiter - Aquarius
Saturn - Scorpio
Uranus - Sagitarrius
Neptune - Capricorn
Pluto - Scorpio

I think the longer the orbit of the planet, the more general the information will be. For example, Pluto takes a long time to orbit the sun, so would have less of a direct influence as say, Mercury.

Feel free to post your own data, as I personally find it pretty interesting.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771113 - 07/23/02 06:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I know most of you don't give a second thought to Astrology

You're right. Here is a list of reasons why I don't:

Gauquelin, M.
Zodiac and Personality: An Empirical Study
Skeptical Inquirer, 6:3, 57
1982
Compiled personality profiles from biographies of 2000 sports figures, actors, scientists, and writers. Compared these profiles with personality traits associated with the sign of the sun, moon, and ascendant according to eight astrology texts. No correlation was found using either the sidereal or tropical zodiac.

Press, N., Michelsen, N.F., Russel, L., Shannon, J., Stark, M.
The New Yourk Suicide Study
Journal of Geocosmic Research, 2, 23-47
1978
Examined records of suicides in NYC from 1969 to 1973. Selected all suicides who were born in NYC and for which birth data was available. This resulted in 311 suicide cases. For each of these, a control subject was randomly chosen who was born in the same borough and year. The suicides and matching controls were divide into three groups according to year of suicide.
A computer program was used to test 100,000 different astrological factors in each of the 622 birth charts for significance between suicide and control groups. None of the factors consistently correlated with the suicide cases.

Culver, R.
Sun Sign Sunset
Pachert
1979

Van Deusen, E.
Astrogenetics
Doubleday
1976

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 147
1977
The above three references examined the correlation between sun sign and over 60 occupations. The results of all three were negative -- no correlation was found between occupation and sun sign.

Dean G., Mather, A.
Recent Advances in Natal Astrology p113
The Astrological Association
1977

Silverman, B., Witmer, M.
Astrological Indicators of Personality
Journal of Psychology, 87, 89
1974

Per Dalen,
Season of Birth
American Elsevier Publishing
1975

Pellegrini, R.,
The Astrological Theory of Personality
Journal of Psychology, 85, 21
1973

The above 4 references all found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits as measured by standardized psychological tests, mostly the California Personality Inventory (CPI). However, Pellegrini found a slight correlation between the CPI femininity index and season of birth.

Illingworth, D., Syme, G.
Birthday and Femininity
Journal of Social Psychology, 103, 153
1977

Tyson, G.
Astrology or Season of Birth: A 'Split-Sphere' Test
Journal of Psychology, 95, 285
1977
These two studies found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits measured by the CPI, including the femininity index.

Mayes, B., Klugh, H.
Birthdate Psychology: A Look at Some New Data
Journal of Psychology 99, 27
1978
Compiled natal charts and results of Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory and the Leary Interpersonal Check List for 196 subjects. Compared 13 personality traits with sun signs, signs and houses of the moon and 8 planets, and with five planetary aspects. No correlations were found.

Mayo, J., White, O., Eysenck, H.
An Empirical Study of the Relation between Astrology Factors and Personality
Journal of Clinical Psychology, 105, 229
1979

Jackson, M.
Extroversion, Neuroticism, and Date of Birth: A Southern Hemisphere Study
Journal of Psychology, 101, 197
1979
These two studies found correlations between astrological factors and the Introversion/Extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Veno, A., Pammunt, P.
Astrological Factors and Personality: a Southern Hemisphere Replication
Journal of Psychology, 101, 73
1979
Failed to duplicate the correlation found above.

Pawlik, K., Buse, L.,
Self-attribution as a Differential Psychological Moderating Variable
Zeitschrift fur Sozilpsychologie, 10, 54
1979
Showed that the correlation above could be explained by the fact that some of the subjects knew what the expected results would be for their astrological signs.

Eysenck, H.,
Astrology: Science or Superstition?
Encounter, Dec 1979, p85


Jackson, M., Fiebert, M. S.
Introversion-Extroversion and Astrology
Journal of Psychology, 105, 155
1980

Saklofske, D., Kelly, I., McKerracher, D.
An Empirical Study of Personality and Astrological Factors
Journal of Psychology, 110, 275
1982
These three studies found no correlation between astrological factors (sun and planetary) and personality, including the introversion/extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astrology: True or False, p215
Prometheus
1988
A double blind test of astrologer John McCall was organized at the University of Virginia by Charles Tolvert and Philip Ianna. McCall claimed an 80 percent success rate in choosing the correct natal horoscope for a subject from three false ones. Twenty-eight subjects were chosen according to McCalls requirements (naturally born caucasians). McCall had 7 successes out of 28 trials, exactly the number predicted by chance.

Silverman, Bernie I.,
Contemporary Astronomy by J. Pasachoff, cf p437
W. B. Saunders
1977

Kop, P., Heuts, B.
Journal of Interdisciplenary Cycle Research 5, 19
1974

The above 2 studies found no correlation between marriage/divorce rate and sun sign combinations in the state of Michigan and the city of Amsterdam, respectively.

John McGervey
Physicist
Case Western Reserve University

Found that the sun signs of 6,000 politicians and 10,000 scientists were randomly distributed.

Shawn Carlson
A Double-blind Test of Astrology
Nature, 318, 419
1985
116 adults filled out California Personality Index surveys and provided natal data. One set of natal data and the results of three personality surveys (one of which was for the same person as the natal data) were given to an astrologer who was to interpret the natal data and determine which of the three CPI results belonged to the same subject as the natal data. The San Francisco chapter of the National Council for Geocosmic Research recommended the 28 astrologers who took part. They approved the procedure in advance and predicted that they would select the correct CPI profiles in more that 50 per cent of the trials. Out of 116 trials, the astrologers chose the correct CPI 34 per cent of the time. This agrees with the random chance prediction of 1 of 3 trails producing a correct choice. Horoscopes were prepared by professional astronomers for 83 subjects. Each subject was given three charts, one of which belonged to the subject. In 28 of 83 trials the subject chose the correct chart. This is the success rate expected for random chance.

Dean, Geoffrey
(trying to find reference)

Astrological readings were done for a groups of subjects. The content of some of the readings were reversed (changed phrases describing the subject to their opposites). Subjects reported that both the reversed and normal readings applied 95 per cent of the time.

Gauquelin, M.
L'Influence des Astres, Etude Critique et Experimentale
Dauphin Press
1955
Found no correlation between occupation and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Moon at the time of birth.

Gauquelin, M.
The Cosmic Clocks, p84
Henry Regnery Co.
1967
Found random distribution of the house containing Saturn for successful individuals, and the house containing Mars for murderers.

Barth, J., Bennet, J.
Leonardo 7, 235
1974

Found no correlation between occupation, medical problems, height, longevity, and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter at the time of birth.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 85
1977
Pretty much the same study and results as the previous reference. Additionally, no correlation was found between occupation, medical problems, etc. and angular separation (along the ecliptic) of planet pairs at time of birth.

Dean, G.
Does Astrology Need to be True? Part 1: A Look at the Real Thing
Skeptical Inquirer, 11, 166
1987
Astrologers prepared horoscopes for subjects correct natal data. Reversed charts were then constructed from the correct charts by retaining the sun sign, but reversing all of the planetary aspects. Half of the subjects were given correct charts, the other half were given reversed charts. There was no correlation between the perceived accuracy of the charts and whether the subject was given a correct or reversed chart.

Dwyer T.
Unpublished word described in Dean, 1987.

Horoscopes were prepared for correct natal data and for a birth date 5 years and 6 months before the correct date, with the correct sun sign retained. Thirty subjects were given the correct and incorrect charts. Half of the subjects picked the correct chart, half chose the incorrect chart.

From James Lippard (lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu):
McGrew, John H., McFall, Richard M.
A Scientific Inquiry Into the Validity of Astrology
Journal of Scientific Exploration, 4, 75-83 1990
Six expert astrologers independently attempted to match 23 astrological birth charts to the corresponding case files of 4 male and 19 female volunteers. Case files contained information on the volunteers' life histories, full-face and profile photographs, and test profiles from the Strong-Campbell Vocational Interest Blank and the Cattell 16-P.F. Personality Inventory. Astrologers did no better than chance or than a nonastrologer control subject at matching the birth charts to the personal data; this result was independent of astrologers' confidence ratings for their predicted matches. Astrologers also failed to agree with one another's predictions.

Marbell, Neil Z., Novak, Angela R., Heal, Laird W., Fleming, Land D., Burton, Jeannine Marie
Self Selection of Astrologically Derived Personality Descriptions: An Empirical Test of the Relationship Between Astrology and Psychology
NCGR Journal, Winter 1986-87, 29-44
Twenty-four female subjects were asked to recognize as true or untrue complex personality characteristics describing themselves and to select one of three personality profiles as their own; personality information had been derived by "blinded" astrologers from natal charts representing the moment of birth. Three different experiments varied as to the complexity of the astrologically derived personality characteristics, method of test material administration, and subjects' knowledge of the astrological basis for personality information. Overall results for the three experiments evaluated using cumulative binomial distribution were significantly non-random, with p<.001 for 15 valid trials and p<.01 for all 24 trials including nine found non-eligible for inclusion. These results supported the validity of astrology's capability to generate unique personality descriptors that subjects affirm by selection as representative of their own personalities



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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771150 - 07/23/02 06:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

*GASP!* No! Not factual data based on real study instead of "feelings". Steve, you will now be branded the new Swami and scorned by the hoardes of open-minded believers.

Better put on full body armor...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771156 - 07/23/02 06:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you PM me your birth date, time, and location I think I might be able to make you look at it from a different angle... I have this pretty good astrology program on my computer.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #771170 - 07/23/02 06:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

/me dons my armor...

after laughing my ass off at swami's post


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771178 - 07/23/02 06:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What do you have against "feelings", Swami? Are you afraid of them?


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771197 - 07/23/02 06:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"Psychinfo" search? Thanks for the refs!


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771220 - 07/23/02 07:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Feelings are an incredibly unreliable and inaccurate way to measure or test the veracity of something.

What's the matter Adamist? Are you afraid of critical examination and double-blind studies?


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #771241 - 07/23/02 07:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think so...

Just that I wouldn't call some feelings unreliable or inaccurate. Emotions have just as much a place in life as logic. Actually, I rely on intuition first, and I then will logically analyze.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771262 - 07/23/02 07:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don't mean to be attacking you or your beliefs, Adamist, but I wanted to post a little bit more about my feelings on astrology.

I believe that people who put a lot of faith in astrology and actually hold it to be true (it still surprises me that there are so many people who do!) are simply displaying a number of human weaknesses. Here is how:

1. People love to hear about themselves. Some astrologers act as shrinks to people who would feel a stigma about going to a therapist
2. We all want a single source for easy truth.
3. We'd love to know what the future holds, and we want to think there's a grand plan, not randomness.
4. We remember meaningful coincidences and ignore misses.
5. We think our own situation and problems are very unique.
6. We love the exciting promises, not difficult boring prosaic explanations.
7. Once we've invested in something, it's hard to admit a mistake.
8. The "second try" fallacy: You can take a difficult to calculate prediction scheme, fail to get a match, and then be very impressed when you try again and get a better hit by chance.
9. A technologically bewildering world can nurture a "human" backlash against cold rationalism.
10. We love mystery (note popularity of shows and books about unexplained vs popularity of skeptical publications)
11. Individuals often fall prey to self-fulfilling prophecy. If they think something will happen, they subtly cause it to happen. If you wake up expecting a bad day, guess what?
12. Studies have shown we are easily lead by suggestion.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771309 - 07/23/02 07:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

We all want a single source for easy truth.
I don't claim astrology is an "easy truth", but rather a general system that in my experience is largely more accurate than not.

We'd love to know what the future holds
So far I havn't found any horoscopic type astrology that is accurate, either.

We remember meaningful coincidences and ignore misses. But what if the "coincidences" largely outnumber the misses?

We love mystery
I do, but I love solving them even better.

Again, I do not believe in horoscopic astrology. I do think that the signs and planets do hold merit, though.


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Edited by Adamist (07/23/02 07:33 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771315 - 07/23/02 07:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

RebelSteve33, if you keep this up:

you may bruise the delicate egos of the egoless...

you may be called 'closed minded' for trying to enlighten the enlightened ones...

the non-judgemental may judge you to be a 'skeptic'...

those who say there is no truth may brand your statements as lies...

those who preach acceptance of all beliefs may refuse to accept or believe these statements...

or any combination of the above.



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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771338 - 07/23/02 07:40 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No one is egoless.
I am not enlightened.
I don't think his statements were lies... far from it.
I accept his statements, but I don't believe them.

Gettin a little hostile, Evolving... you need to settle down, man.


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Anonymous

Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771366 - 07/23/02 07:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Adamist, getting a little defensive? Don't worry, I wasn't attacking you. There was absolutely no hostility when making that post. I was merely pointing out (with some sense of irony ) what may be expected from some individuals.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771566 - 07/23/02 08:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Here's some of my more negative qualities you might find humorous:

"...rebellious, unconventional, stubborn, argumentative, radical, erratic, bohemian, eccentric..."
"At times you express unusual ideas simply to shock or surprise others out of their lethargy or just to see what kind of a reaction you'll get."
"...in search for the Holy Grail."
"need to learn how to be more practical and down-to-earth."
"You are a bit impatient with those who are conservative and unimaginative and those who are afraid perhaps to think about and try new things and ideas."
"You follow your own convictions regardless of what others think of you."
"Makes no concessions or compromises. Can become a fanatic of a creed, a party, work or a religion." LOL


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771582 - 07/23/02 08:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Note that in response to my earlier post, Adamist quickly turned personal , inquiring about my fear level, rather than building his case. This type of dodge is rampant when discussing esoterica with close-minded believers.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #771638 - 07/23/02 09:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

| )) <--- theres my case.

THE END.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771668 - 07/23/02 09:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #772113 - 07/24/02 02:56 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry to step into this discusion but i think this thread had a porpuse. I don't get why Rebel had to reply stating the 1001 reasons he doesn't believe in astrology, i read 1/3 of Rebel post and i got tired of reading that probabilistic data wich i have probably read it two or three times before, why don't you post a new thread explaining why people shouldn't believe in astrology instead of bashing this one ? I don't mean you shouldn't post your thoughts about this issue but you got to agree with me that you got way off the main subject, was there any need to do so ? It's anoying. I mean, there are 16 replies and none directly refers to "Feel free to post your own data, as I personally find it pretty interesting.", i'll post mine latter so this thread don't go useless. I believe astrology is a part of the explanation but i also believe probabilistic data proving astrology wrong is an explanation why astrology is only a part and not the whole explanation, this happens when you try to explain and analize an esoterical science like astrology with a math based analisis such as quantitative methods, the objective meets the subjective, everyone can draw conclusions, now we know yours, so ? Nice.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Astrology [Re: MAIA]
    #772285 - 07/24/02 06:25 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don't get why Rebel had to reply stating the 1001 reasons he doesn't believe in astrology, i read 1/3 of Rebel post and i got tired of reading that probabilistic data wich i have probably read it two or three times before, why don't you post a new thread explaining why people shouldn't believe in astrology instead of bashing this one ? I don't mean you shouldn't post your thoughts about this issue but you got to agree with me that you got way off the main subject, was there any need to do so ? It's anoying. I mean, there are 16 replies and none directly refers to "Feel free to post your own data, as I personally find it pretty interesting.", i'll post mine latter so this thread don't go useless.

It's a discussion. Discussions have tangents. I don't recall any bashing; RebelSteve just posted some facts. If facts aren't your thing, you're in luck, because you don't have to read them. It ceases to be annoying when you cease paying attention to it. I think what he posted was relevant but if you disagree, fine. People in OTD make posts about when they are going to poo or shower; I don't think they're particularly useful but it's okay because there are plenty of other posts to read. If you think it is truly a bad bad thing then tell a mod about it.

I believe astrology is a part of the explanation but i also believe probabilistic data proving astrology wrong is an explanation why astrology is only a part and not the whole explanation, this happens when you try to explain and analize an esoterical science like astrology with a math based analisis such as quantitative methods, the objective meets the subjective, everyone can draw conclusions, now we know yours, so ? Nice.

Astrology is not a science. Science doesn't work if you deny it quantitative analysis. Science is two things: i) a system (yes using quantitative analysis) for gaining knowledge based on objective observations of data and previously established knowledge, such that a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt can be reached; and ii) A body of knowledge collected using this method. Subjective evaluations are the opposite of science. Astrology is a belief system that I personally don't subscribe to because of evidence like RebelSteve posted. I don't have any disdain towards those who do believe it, but it ain't no science.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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