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Re: astrology [Re: zeppa]
    #4140146 -

I did not say the signs shifted, I said that the interpretation of the signs had altered over time.  Just like beliefs about psychology and medicine have changed with the times so has astrology - such the incorporation of new planets, emphasis and de-emphasis on particular stars, and branching schools of thought on how everything works, should be read, or what constelations to take into account.  There are in fact astrologers who adjust their readings based on changes in constelations over the years, and others who believe that the stars were simply markers of time.  That's just in western astrology too, not counting eastern and native american.  (though I have not studied those too much).

I said "works more often then not", not "this is a theory that has been proven and is now in your science book".  I also did not claim that this is a miracle cure to all our questions on life, the universe, and everything - merely that its something that seems to work.  (Active word being 'seems', as in to me and several million other people, all of whom could be right or wrong depending on when you open the box)  If there had been a controlled study done without bias proving things either way then there would no longer be a cause for debate.  I could point out to my own life experiences, but that would not be a controlled study because neither am I a scientist (in this particular context), nor do I think that I could get a grant involving astrology so that I would have an incentive to try to prove it.   

The online Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "theory" as: "a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption" (definition 6a).  Therefore those 'theories' are perfectly acceptable.  I might add that virtually every discovery of our species came when people looked at something, tried to imagine how or why it might work, and then looked deeper to prove or disprove their imagination and flesh out the details.  Very few ever found something new by starting with 'why this can't work' (except for proving algorithms of course)

Please keep in mind that I posted just to give an alternate view on the subject, not because I particularly care to convert anyone - I am don't do astrology for money and have nothing to sell and no profit to make from people believing me.  Perhaps its BS.  That's what western science has proven about acupuncture, many folk herbal remedies, and the spherical shape of the world, (surprisingly the cures were stubborn and kept working and the world kept spinning) but in this instance they may be right.  I don't know, and I am in the business of using tools available to me when its advantageous, not telling people what to think. If you would prefer to disbelieve it that's your choice, though I can't see an advantage in not keeping an open mind just because the information isn't taught in regular colleges.  *shrug*  In short - don't like, don't use pay attention to it. :smile:

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4140322 -

I rather enjoyed hearing about these kinda~ gifts.....    :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4140764 -

There are in fact astrologers who adjust their readings based on changes in constelations over the years

Please show me an astrological chart that shows, for example, Aquarius in March. This is required of any astrologers who "adjust their readings" as you say.

I said "works more often then not",

According to these studies:

http://www.skepsis.no/english/subject/astrology/studies.html

it doesn't work at all. :shrug:

Please cite a study where it "works more often than not".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4140783 -

According to generalized studies with no proofs, and bunk protocals that aren't utilized by the scientific method....

Find a report with some 1,000 folks that are picked out of the blue and have their personalities correlated with their sign, as well as various other degrees such as their ascendant, their moon, etc... pertaining to their natal chart. If nothing short of that is achieved (we can reduce that number down to 10, or even 1 if you want) with 100% certainty by a group of say 20 astrologers with no former knowledge of the sample.... I don't see the point in suggesting that.

As far as something being credible because of its past.... in the past astrology was based on a 13 sign system, so taking the modern account into question (more often then not your "studies will be utilizing this form)... well, their is much to be desired.

We can also talk about the flat earthers and their beliefs of the world being flat, as the thought is old and still in existance; various other organizations exist based on this even though... theirs absolutely no merit to the belief whatsoever;

http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html
http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/flat_earth.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html

A general astrological forecast; click on the animal associated with your sign for optimal results.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/horrorscope.htm


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4144609 -

*sigh* i don't quite know why i'm answering, though its likely something to do with not wanting to get to work.  oh well, i've heard of worst reasons to post.

I had already looked over those studies, thank you for the link - they were most interesting.  it was equally interesting to note that most of those studies either didn't mention what they studied or specifically referred to sun signs (which i'd mentioned are about as acurate as the horoscopes you get at the gas station)  out of the remaining ones as near as i can tell all had fairly small sample groups, not enough that a tabloid would consider them worthy of predicting a local election.  skipping that detail, all the ones that had been done by professionals (i'll assume they were for the sake of argument) were then either handed to people to 'identify with' or used to see if the astrologers could predict which people matched them.  Considering that psychology tells us how people have a real persona, a persona that they think they identify with, and then a public persona on top of that, the basis for the 'astrology is bunk' proof seems to be that a bunch of people said they liked to identify or not identify with what they read.  No offense but give me enough time and I can convince someone to identify with a walnut.  Astrology is more useful for helping people heal and grow on an individual basis by suggesting some of the more common maladies based on full workouts of a chart.  Some astrologers use them it for other purposes and you would have to talk with them about their success rates. 

As for studies that work 'more often then not', I repeat what I've said in the last two posts - I am not refering to a particular study, I am refering to personal non-scientific experience.  For myself I use it to get rough overviews of people and together with my other studies I use to sidestep potential problems and find effective ways to communicate what I need to communicate to specific individuals.  Can I hand you a sheet with proof?  No.  Would I?  No, because it really doesn't matter enough to me so long as it works 'more often then not' for me.  If you would like unbiase studies proving things then you might want to be careful visiting psychiatrists, doctors, or your grocery store - the jury is still out on most of them and there is substantial proof that their methods don't work and are potentially harmful.

In the end though, que serra, serra, believe as you would: "see as thou wouldst want to see, be as thou wouldst want to be" - you may be right. :smile:

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4144683 -

I love the quotes at the bottom of your message. :smile:  I think your argument is well made - it is a lot to ask for in a proof.  What I was trying to say was not "prove or disprove it conclusively' so much as that there are no certainties.  That's one of the reasons I am not trying to produce proof, I think you are right - there is a chance astrology is bunk, and there is a chance that it works, and like with a lot of things its very difficult to prove things either way.  I just don't understand why people need to work in absolutes rather then odds - "there is a good chance this doesn't work, but who knows". 

For example with the flat earth group.  For the longest time they said the world was flat and burned anyone who said otherwise, even though there was a chance they were wrong.  Now we think the world is round and ridicule anyone who thinks its flat, even though none of us has personally seen our planet from space.  Granted, the physics match up but I have to take the word of the physicists and astronomers, I don't have time to devote myself to those studies just to prove that the world is in fact round (which I already believe).  As such I acknowledge that the world is round but I also acknowledge that there is always a chance that I might be wrong - it doesn't hurt me either way to think this way.  Maybe our world is a disk on the back of four elephants who are riding a giant turtle through space, and everything we've heard is PR and special FX.  Same with astrology.  I happen to believe it works and that its been working for me, but I acknowledge I could be wrong.  So why would anyone care so much to disprove me if it doesn't affect them and there is a chance that it might work? 

Perhaps its a middle ground even - perhaps astrology works but not as it is at the moment.  Medicine jumps into mind again - a lot of the old theories were right but not in their implementation at the time.  People thought that transfusion worked even though in a lot of the cases the person died anyways (odds similar to those of random chance).  Now we know that transfusion works but only if you use the right bloodtype, otherwise the patient will die - we had no tools before to realize this might even be a possibility.  *shrug*

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4145151 -

For example with the flat earth group. For the longest time they said the world was flat and burned anyone who said otherwise, even though there was a chance they were wrong.

Scientists never said this after evidence to the contrary was found. In fact, it was much the other way around when Galileo pointed this and other facts out and was threatened with torture by the Inquisition in 1611.

Science changes in the face of new evidence; mysticism remains stagnant. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4146155 -

You know what, you're completely right.  Science has embraced change with open arms over time as soon as it got proof contradicting its beliefs, "mysticism" and "mystics" have never changed or looked into new ideas, and unless something has been proven by the scientific method it can't work because its only studied by mystical yokals.  :thumbup: *shrug*

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