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OfflineAdamist
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Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
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Astrology
    #771096 - 07/23/02 04:07 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

I know most of you don't give a second thought to Astrology, but for those who are interested here is a website that will calculate what position the sun, moon, and planets were in at the time of your birth. It's explanations can sometimes be too general for my liking, so you might want to try Astrodienst too; they also draw charts for free.
Here is mine:
Sun - Aquarius
Moon - Aquarius
Mercury - Aquarius
Venus - Aries
Mars - Aries
Jupiter - Aquarius
Saturn - Scorpio
Uranus - Sagitarrius
Neptune - Capricorn
Pluto - Scorpio

I think the longer the orbit of the planet, the more general the information will be. For example, Pluto takes a long time to orbit the sun, so would have less of a direct influence as say, Mercury.

Feel free to post your own data, as I personally find it pretty interesting.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771113 - 07/23/02 04:15 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

I know most of you don't give a second thought to Astrology

You're right. Here is a list of reasons why I don't:

Gauquelin, M.
Zodiac and Personality: An Empirical Study
Skeptical Inquirer, 6:3, 57
1982
Compiled personality profiles from biographies of 2000 sports figures, actors, scientists, and writers. Compared these profiles with personality traits associated with the sign of the sun, moon, and ascendant according to eight astrology texts. No correlation was found using either the sidereal or tropical zodiac.

Press, N., Michelsen, N.F., Russel, L., Shannon, J., Stark, M.
The New Yourk Suicide Study
Journal of Geocosmic Research, 2, 23-47
1978
Examined records of suicides in NYC from 1969 to 1973. Selected all suicides who were born in NYC and for which birth data was available. This resulted in 311 suicide cases. For each of these, a control subject was randomly chosen who was born in the same borough and year. The suicides and matching controls were divide into three groups according to year of suicide.
A computer program was used to test 100,000 different astrological factors in each of the 622 birth charts for significance between suicide and control groups. None of the factors consistently correlated with the suicide cases.

Culver, R.
Sun Sign Sunset
Pachert
1979

Van Deusen, E.
Astrogenetics
Doubleday
1976

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 147
1977
The above three references examined the correlation between sun sign and over 60 occupations. The results of all three were negative -- no correlation was found between occupation and sun sign.

Dean G., Mather, A.
Recent Advances in Natal Astrology p113
The Astrological Association
1977

Silverman, B., Witmer, M.
Astrological Indicators of Personality
Journal of Psychology, 87, 89
1974

Per Dalen,
Season of Birth
American Elsevier Publishing
1975

Pellegrini, R.,
The Astrological Theory of Personality
Journal of Psychology, 85, 21
1973

The above 4 references all found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits as measured by standardized psychological tests, mostly the California Personality Inventory (CPI). However, Pellegrini found a slight correlation between the CPI femininity index and season of birth.

Illingworth, D., Syme, G.
Birthday and Femininity
Journal of Social Psychology, 103, 153
1977

Tyson, G.
Astrology or Season of Birth: A 'Split-Sphere' Test
Journal of Psychology, 95, 285
1977
These two studies found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits measured by the CPI, including the femininity index.

Mayes, B., Klugh, H.
Birthdate Psychology: A Look at Some New Data
Journal of Psychology 99, 27
1978
Compiled natal charts and results of Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory and the Leary Interpersonal Check List for 196 subjects. Compared 13 personality traits with sun signs, signs and houses of the moon and 8 planets, and with five planetary aspects. No correlations were found.

Mayo, J., White, O., Eysenck, H.
An Empirical Study of the Relation between Astrology Factors and Personality
Journal of Clinical Psychology, 105, 229
1979

Jackson, M.
Extroversion, Neuroticism, and Date of Birth: A Southern Hemisphere Study
Journal of Psychology, 101, 197
1979
These two studies found correlations between astrological factors and the Introversion/Extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Veno, A., Pammunt, P.
Astrological Factors and Personality: a Southern Hemisphere Replication
Journal of Psychology, 101, 73
1979
Failed to duplicate the correlation found above.

Pawlik, K., Buse, L.,
Self-attribution as a Differential Psychological Moderating Variable
Zeitschrift fur Sozilpsychologie, 10, 54
1979
Showed that the correlation above could be explained by the fact that some of the subjects knew what the expected results would be for their astrological signs.

Eysenck, H.,
Astrology: Science or Superstition?
Encounter, Dec 1979, p85


Jackson, M., Fiebert, M. S.
Introversion-Extroversion and Astrology
Journal of Psychology, 105, 155
1980

Saklofske, D., Kelly, I., McKerracher, D.
An Empirical Study of Personality and Astrological Factors
Journal of Psychology, 110, 275
1982
These three studies found no correlation between astrological factors (sun and planetary) and personality, including the introversion/extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astrology: True or False, p215
Prometheus
1988
A double blind test of astrologer John McCall was organized at the University of Virginia by Charles Tolvert and Philip Ianna. McCall claimed an 80 percent success rate in choosing the correct natal horoscope for a subject from three false ones. Twenty-eight subjects were chosen according to McCalls requirements (naturally born caucasians). McCall had 7 successes out of 28 trials, exactly the number predicted by chance.

Silverman, Bernie I.,
Contemporary Astronomy by J. Pasachoff, cf p437
W. B. Saunders
1977

Kop, P., Heuts, B.
Journal of Interdisciplenary Cycle Research 5, 19
1974

The above 2 studies found no correlation between marriage/divorce rate and sun sign combinations in the state of Michigan and the city of Amsterdam, respectively.

John McGervey
Physicist
Case Western Reserve University

Found that the sun signs of 6,000 politicians and 10,000 scientists were randomly distributed.

Shawn Carlson
A Double-blind Test of Astrology
Nature, 318, 419
1985
116 adults filled out California Personality Index surveys and provided natal data. One set of natal data and the results of three personality surveys (one of which was for the same person as the natal data) were given to an astrologer who was to interpret the natal data and determine which of the three CPI results belonged to the same subject as the natal data. The San Francisco chapter of the National Council for Geocosmic Research recommended the 28 astrologers who took part. They approved the procedure in advance and predicted that they would select the correct CPI profiles in more that 50 per cent of the trials. Out of 116 trials, the astrologers chose the correct CPI 34 per cent of the time. This agrees with the random chance prediction of 1 of 3 trails producing a correct choice. Horoscopes were prepared by professional astronomers for 83 subjects. Each subject was given three charts, one of which belonged to the subject. In 28 of 83 trials the subject chose the correct chart. This is the success rate expected for random chance.

Dean, Geoffrey
(trying to find reference)

Astrological readings were done for a groups of subjects. The content of some of the readings were reversed (changed phrases describing the subject to their opposites). Subjects reported that both the reversed and normal readings applied 95 per cent of the time.

Gauquelin, M.
L'Influence des Astres, Etude Critique et Experimentale
Dauphin Press
1955
Found no correlation between occupation and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Moon at the time of birth.

Gauquelin, M.
The Cosmic Clocks, p84
Henry Regnery Co.
1967
Found random distribution of the house containing Saturn for successful individuals, and the house containing Mars for murderers.

Barth, J., Bennet, J.
Leonardo 7, 235
1974

Found no correlation between occupation, medical problems, height, longevity, and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter at the time of birth.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 85
1977
Pretty much the same study and results as the previous reference. Additionally, no correlation was found between occupation, medical problems, etc. and angular separation (along the ecliptic) of planet pairs at time of birth.

Dean, G.
Does Astrology Need to be True? Part 1: A Look at the Real Thing
Skeptical Inquirer, 11, 166
1987
Astrologers prepared horoscopes for subjects correct natal data. Reversed charts were then constructed from the correct charts by retaining the sun sign, but reversing all of the planetary aspects. Half of the subjects were given correct charts, the other half were given reversed charts. There was no correlation between the perceived accuracy of the charts and whether the subject was given a correct or reversed chart.

Dwyer T.
Unpublished word described in Dean, 1987.

Horoscopes were prepared for correct natal data and for a birth date 5 years and 6 months before the correct date, with the correct sun sign retained. Thirty subjects were given the correct and incorrect charts. Half of the subjects picked the correct chart, half chose the incorrect chart.

From James Lippard (lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu):
McGrew, John H., McFall, Richard M.
A Scientific Inquiry Into the Validity of Astrology
Journal of Scientific Exploration, 4, 75-83 1990
Six expert astrologers independently attempted to match 23 astrological birth charts to the corresponding case files of 4 male and 19 female volunteers. Case files contained information on the volunteers' life histories, full-face and profile photographs, and test profiles from the Strong-Campbell Vocational Interest Blank and the Cattell 16-P.F. Personality Inventory. Astrologers did no better than chance or than a nonastrologer control subject at matching the birth charts to the personal data; this result was independent of astrologers' confidence ratings for their predicted matches. Astrologers also failed to agree with one another's predictions.

Marbell, Neil Z., Novak, Angela R., Heal, Laird W., Fleming, Land D., Burton, Jeannine Marie
Self Selection of Astrologically Derived Personality Descriptions: An Empirical Test of the Relationship Between Astrology and Psychology
NCGR Journal, Winter 1986-87, 29-44
Twenty-four female subjects were asked to recognize as true or untrue complex personality characteristics describing themselves and to select one of three personality profiles as their own; personality information had been derived by "blinded" astrologers from natal charts representing the moment of birth. Three different experiments varied as to the complexity of the astrologically derived personality characteristics, method of test material administration, and subjects' knowledge of the astrological basis for personality information. Overall results for the three experiments evaluated using cumulative binomial distribution were significantly non-random, with p<.001 for 15 valid trials and p<.01 for all 24 trials including nine found non-eligible for inclusion. These results supported the validity of astrology's capability to generate unique personality descriptors that subjects affirm by selection as representative of their own personalities



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Namaste.

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771150 - 07/23/02 04:30 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

*GASP!* No! Not factual data based on real study instead of "feelings". Steve, you will now be branded the new Swami and scorned by the hoardes of open-minded believers.

Better put on full body armor...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771156 - 07/23/02 04:32 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

If you PM me your birth date, time, and location I think I might be able to make you look at it from a different angle... I have this pretty good astrology program on my computer.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #771170 - 07/23/02 04:37 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

/me dons my armor...

after laughing my ass off at swami's post


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Namaste.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771178 - 07/23/02 04:41 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

What do you have against "feelings", Swami? Are you afraid of them?


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771197 - 07/23/02 04:53 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

"Psychinfo" search? Thanks for the refs!


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771220 - 07/23/02 05:00 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

Feelings are an incredibly unreliable and inaccurate way to measure or test the veracity of something.

What's the matter Adamist? Are you afraid of critical examination and double-blind studies?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #771241 - 07/23/02 05:06 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

I don't think so...

Just that I wouldn't call some feelings unreliable or inaccurate. Emotions have just as much a place in life as logic. Actually, I rely on intuition first, and I then will logically analyze.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771262 - 07/23/02 05:15 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

I don't mean to be attacking you or your beliefs, Adamist, but I wanted to post a little bit more about my feelings on astrology.

I believe that people who put a lot of faith in astrology and actually hold it to be true (it still surprises me that there are so many people who do!) are simply displaying a number of human weaknesses. Here is how:

1. People love to hear about themselves. Some astrologers act as shrinks to people who would feel a stigma about going to a therapist
2. We all want a single source for easy truth.
3. We'd love to know what the future holds, and we want to think there's a grand plan, not randomness.
4. We remember meaningful coincidences and ignore misses.
5. We think our own situation and problems are very unique.
6. We love the exciting promises, not difficult boring prosaic explanations.
7. Once we've invested in something, it's hard to admit a mistake.
8. The "second try" fallacy: You can take a difficult to calculate prediction scheme, fail to get a match, and then be very impressed when you try again and get a better hit by chance.
9. A technologically bewildering world can nurture a "human" backlash against cold rationalism.
10. We love mystery (note popularity of shows and books about unexplained vs popularity of skeptical publications)
11. Individuals often fall prey to self-fulfilling prophecy. If they think something will happen, they subtly cause it to happen. If you wake up expecting a bad day, guess what?
12. Studies have shown we are easily lead by suggestion.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771309 - 07/23/02 05:31 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

We all want a single source for easy truth.
I don't claim astrology is an "easy truth", but rather a general system that in my experience is largely more accurate than not.

We'd love to know what the future holds
So far I havn't found any horoscopic type astrology that is accurate, either.

We remember meaningful coincidences and ignore misses. But what if the "coincidences" largely outnumber the misses?

We love mystery
I do, but I love solving them even better.

Again, I do not believe in horoscopic astrology. I do think that the signs and planets do hold merit, though.


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Edited by Adamist (07/23/02 05:33 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #771315 - 07/23/02 05:33 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

RebelSteve33, if you keep this up:

you may bruise the delicate egos of the egoless...

you may be called 'closed minded' for trying to enlighten the enlightened ones...

the non-judgemental may judge you to be a 'skeptic'...

those who say there is no truth may brand your statements as lies...

those who preach acceptance of all beliefs may refuse to accept or believe these statements...

or any combination of the above.


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OfflineAdamist
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Registered: 11/23/01
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771338 - 07/23/02 05:40 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

No one is egoless.
I am not enlightened.
I don't think his statements were lies... far from it.
I accept his statements, but I don't believe them.

Gettin a little hostile, Evolving... you need to settle down, man.


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Anonymous

Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #771366 - 07/23/02 05:53 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

Adamist, getting a little defensive? Don't worry, I wasn't attacking you. There was absolutely no hostility when making that post. I was merely pointing out (with some sense of irony ) what may be expected from some individuals.

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OfflineAdamist
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Registered: 11/23/01
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771566 - 07/23/02 06:47 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

Here's some of my more negative qualities you might find humorous:

"...rebellious, unconventional, stubborn, argumentative, radical, erratic, bohemian, eccentric..."
"At times you express unusual ideas simply to shock or surprise others out of their lethargy or just to see what kind of a reaction you'll get."
"...in search for the Holy Grail."
"need to learn how to be more practical and down-to-earth."
"You are a bit impatient with those who are conservative and unimaginative and those who are afraid perhaps to think about and try new things and ideas."
"You follow your own convictions regardless of what others think of you."
"Makes no concessions or compromises. Can become a fanatic of a creed, a party, work or a religion." LOL


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771582 - 07/23/02 06:51 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

Note that in response to my earlier post, Adamist quickly turned personal , inquiring about my fear level, rather than building his case. This type of dodge is rampant when discussing esoterica with close-minded believers.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #771638 - 07/23/02 07:07 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)

| )) <--- theres my case.

THE END.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Astrology [Re: ]
    #771668 - 07/23/02 07:19 PM (22 years, 3 days ago)



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #772113 - 07/24/02 12:56 AM (22 years, 3 days ago)

Sorry to step into this discusion but i think this thread had a porpuse. I don't get why Rebel had to reply stating the 1001 reasons he doesn't believe in astrology, i read 1/3 of Rebel post and i got tired of reading that probabilistic data wich i have probably read it two or three times before, why don't you post a new thread explaining why people shouldn't believe in astrology instead of bashing this one ? I don't mean you shouldn't post your thoughts about this issue but you got to agree with me that you got way off the main subject, was there any need to do so ? It's anoying. I mean, there are 16 replies and none directly refers to "Feel free to post your own data, as I personally find it pretty interesting.", i'll post mine latter so this thread don't go useless. I believe astrology is a part of the explanation but i also believe probabilistic data proving astrology wrong is an explanation why astrology is only a part and not the whole explanation, this happens when you try to explain and analize an esoterical science like astrology with a math based analisis such as quantitative methods, the objective meets the subjective, everyone can draw conclusions, now we know yours, so ? Nice.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Astrology [Re: MAIA]
    #772285 - 07/24/02 04:25 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

I don't get why Rebel had to reply stating the 1001 reasons he doesn't believe in astrology, i read 1/3 of Rebel post and i got tired of reading that probabilistic data wich i have probably read it two or three times before, why don't you post a new thread explaining why people shouldn't believe in astrology instead of bashing this one ? I don't mean you shouldn't post your thoughts about this issue but you got to agree with me that you got way off the main subject, was there any need to do so ? It's anoying. I mean, there are 16 replies and none directly refers to "Feel free to post your own data, as I personally find it pretty interesting.", i'll post mine latter so this thread don't go useless.

It's a discussion. Discussions have tangents. I don't recall any bashing; RebelSteve just posted some facts. If facts aren't your thing, you're in luck, because you don't have to read them. It ceases to be annoying when you cease paying attention to it. I think what he posted was relevant but if you disagree, fine. People in OTD make posts about when they are going to poo or shower; I don't think they're particularly useful but it's okay because there are plenty of other posts to read. If you think it is truly a bad bad thing then tell a mod about it.

I believe astrology is a part of the explanation but i also believe probabilistic data proving astrology wrong is an explanation why astrology is only a part and not the whole explanation, this happens when you try to explain and analize an esoterical science like astrology with a math based analisis such as quantitative methods, the objective meets the subjective, everyone can draw conclusions, now we know yours, so ? Nice.

Astrology is not a science. Science doesn't work if you deny it quantitative analysis. Science is two things: i) a system (yes using quantitative analysis) for gaining knowledge based on objective observations of data and previously established knowledge, such that a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt can be reached; and ii) A body of knowledge collected using this method. Subjective evaluations are the opposite of science. Astrology is a belief system that I personally don't subscribe to because of evidence like RebelSteve posted. I don't have any disdain towards those who do believe it, but it ain't no science.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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InvisiblethePatient
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Posts: 3,289
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #772613 - 07/24/02 07:31 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

Sun - Capricorn,
Moon - Pisces,
Mercury - Sagitarrius,
Venus - Aquarius,
Mars - Pisces,
Jupiter - Capricorn,
Saturn - Scorpio,
Uranus - Sagitarrius,
Neptune - Capricorn,
Pluto - Scorpio
Ascendant - Gemini


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T h e r e  a r e  n o  o r d i n a r y  m o m e n t s.

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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Astrology [Re: thePatient]
    #772645 - 07/24/02 07:42 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

"Things most skeptics dont know about astrology:

1. Astrology probably gave birth to Astronomy. There is nothing supernatural about casting a horoscope, most of it is done according to precise astronomical and mathematical principles.
2. Many famous scientists have been into Astrology: Tyco Brahe, Karl Jung, Kepler, Huxley, and Copernicus.. Many others remain anonymous.
3. Astrologers do not necessarily believe in fate. They believe the stars impel not compel.
4. There are 10,000 practicing paid Astrologers and millions of horoscope followers. There are hundreds of books on the topic. Only 10% of Americans believe there can't be anything to it.
5. Astrology doesn't have to involve pphacthic phenomenon or even direct causation. Many Astrologers believe in a natural synchronicity between the stars and events. Other countries place even more value in it.
6. It is a undisputed scientific fact that the planets have a measurable magnetic, gravitational and electromagnetic influence on the earth. Most people agree that bizarre behavior tends to peak on full moons.
7. Astrology is not limited to natal. There is also electional, horary, mundane, medical, meteorological, Chinese 12 year and millennial.
8. The vast majority of those who look at their own chart (not just a newspaper column) find uncanny accurate hits..."

taken from : http://www.phact.org/e/astrolgy.htm



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Astrology [Re: thePatient]
    #772682 - 07/24/02 08:04 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

Things most believers dont know about astrology:

1. A person's future and personal strengths and weaknesses cannot be determined by astronomical and mathematical principles. No two astrologers will give the same reading on the same person, showing a wide range of subjective interpretation. There is nothing at all precise in that.

2. Many famous scientists have been into Astrology, however, the vast majority find it to be a pseudo-science based on superstition with nothing of substance to it.

3. Astrologers do not necessarily believe in fate. They believe in making money by telling weak-minded people what they want to hear.

4. There are 10,000 practicing paid Astrologers and millions of horoscope followers, all of them frauds either consciously or unconsciously.

There are hundreds of books on the topic, most in diametric opposition to the other books.

Only 10% of Americans believe there can't be anything to it once again demonstrating the gullibility of the American people. Every single double-blind test has failed to show any correlation between birthdate and fate or characteristics.

5. Astrology doesn't have to involve direct causation because there is no link whatsoever between behavior and planetary motion.

6. It is a undisputed scientific fact that the planets have a measurable magnetic, gravitational and electromagnetic influence on the earth.

Most people agree that bizarre behavior tends to peak on full moons, even though extensive studies have repeatedly failed to find any kind of "Lunar Effect".

7. Astrology is not limited to natal. There is also electional, horary, mundane, medical, meteorological, Chinese 12 year and millennial. The number of bogus branches is as limitless as people's money to spend on forecasting.

8. The vast majority of (90+%) people tested, found their horoscope to be quite accurate even when all those polled were of different Zodiak signs, yet were given the EXACT SAME READING.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (07/24/02 09:22 AM)

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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #772732 - 07/24/02 08:34 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

I expected you to post that Swami. Otherwise i wouldnt have provided the address to my post. There are pros and cons of every situation.


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Re: Astrology [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #772744 - 07/24/02 08:38 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

"The above 4 references all found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits as measured by standardized psychological tests, mostly the California Personality Inventory (CPI). "
In my experiance when the psychological communiy trys to prove something that they would call unknown or spiritual they bring in the rumplestilskin effect they name it and it dissapeares and they have no proof that it was ever thier
but thats just a bit of my insane-brain



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Astrology [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #772783 - 07/24/02 08:53 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

"I don't recall any bashing; RebelSteve just posted some facts. "

You're right when you say RebelSteve just posted some facts, sorry, the bashing came afterwards, the nature of the first post didn't diserve such a confrontation, i mean, RebelSteve wrote a 200 line post with several examples of studies that looked like a bibliography just to make his point about Adamist statment "I know most of you don't give a second thought to Astrology ". My problem isn't getting a valid proof about the fallacy of astrology, i know it has its flaws and i believe Adamist also knows that, the problem is the attitude and intention of the post. When i say it's annoying i don't mean to say it's irrelevant, the conclusion RebelSteve wants to reach is very relevant, those are valids facts but it's usefulness is relative, i mean, i got the message but do i have to memorize all the examples. Again, what was the intention ? . What is really annoying, is both bashing and redicularizing people, like i said in other similar post, it's getting a common practice in this forum and i'm not the only one to say that, i think it's bad to debate in some terms but i don't need to go tell anything to a mod about this like a crying baby, thanks.

"Astrology is not a science. Science doesn't work if you deny it quantitative analysis. Science is two things: i) a system (yes using quantitative analysis) for gaining knowledge based on objective observations of data and previously established knowledge, "

Do a search at Altavista on the query "esoteric science" wich is what astrology is considered, you shouldn't find any .

MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisiblethePatient
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #772842 - 07/24/02 09:15 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

My natal report is pretty darn accurate. Ya, someone could read it and say to themselves "That sounds a lot like me too". But are you sure, or are you fooling yourself? You have to look at your inner self and examine it. The good WITH the bad. You know who you are.
On a side note, i find the Ascendent, The Sun, and The Moon, the most accurate. From there on, it gets a little more general.

Here are some lines from my natal report:

GEMINI rising
People with Gemini rising tend to be friendly, communicative,
flexible, indecisive, unsure, liking to do two or more things at once,
witty, clever, very active mentally, high-strung, temperamental,
nervous or anxious, talkative, superficial, and always ready for
something different.

If you knew me on a personal level, you'd know this is exactly like me. I AM indecisive and unsure...i AM high-strung and tempermental, and i AM nervous and at times superficial.

Sun in Capricorn
Capricorns have the desire to climb whatever mountains are necessary
and to stand on their own two feet in order to work out their
ambitions and their salvation. They are conservative, organized,
methodical, traditional, responsible, honest, efficient, patient,
practical, authoritative, disciplined, serious and goal-oriented. On
the negative side they can be worried, pessimistic, retaliatory,
suspicious, stubborn and intolerant. They are happiest in careers
calling for organizing ability, integrity and perseverance. They have
a fear of failure

Before i read anything on astrology, i realized what my biggest fear in life was. Failure. I even told a few close people of this fear. Also, it says im worried. I admit, I am a worrier. I worry about anything and everything. You may look and relate to this by thinking everyone worries. I disagree. People do worry, but i am constantly worrying about everything. I used to have serious acne from worrying so much. I had to learn to give in, learn to understand that things cant always go the way you plan. Shit happens.

"Their quiet exterior makes Capricorns appear to be loners. "
"They strive for security... " - Indeed
"Capricorns like to plan their every move, weighing all the pros and cons of any issue in advance. "
"When asked, they give sound, practical advice"
"At times Capricorns can be very sensitive to hurts and feel alone as if no one understands them. A negative Capricorn will seek retribution for wrongs done him. "


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Re: Astrology [Re: MAIA]
    #772848 - 07/24/02 09:18 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

My problem isn't getting a valid proof about the fallacy of astrology, i know it has its flaws and i believe Adamist also knows that, the problem is the attitude and intention of the post.

How do you know what his intentions were? Maybe he just thought the post looked cool. I think it did.

i mean, i got the message but do i have to memorize all the examples. Again, what was the intention ?

My point was that no, you DON'T have to memorize the examples. You don't even have to read them.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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Re: Astrology [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #773151 - 07/24/02 11:16 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

"How do you know what his intentions were? Maybe he just thought the post looked cool. I think it did."

Subjective and probably true.

"My point was that no, you DON'T have to memorize the examples. You don't even have to read them. "

That's one of the problems, no learning. I read them all after though.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #774822 - 07/25/02 01:06 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

Here's mine :


Sun - Cancer
Moon - Sagittarius
Mercury - Cancer
Venus - Virgo
Mars - Taurus
Jupiter - Aries
Saturn - Cancer
Uranus - Libra
Neptune - Sagittarius
Pluto - Libra
Lilith - Pisces
Asc node Scorpio

Birth Chart
This birth chart shows the positions of the planets
The planets in the signs
The position of the planets in the signs of the Zodiac has an influence on the character of the individual and these influences form a large part of the individual psyche.

Sun in Cancer

He weighs words carefully and is tenacious. A calm and discreet nature, tender, thoughtful, sensitive and impressionable. He likes group life.
Weaknesses: He is humble, timid, changeable, indecisive, lazy, over-sensitive and prickly. Easily influenced by the family.

Moon in Sagittarius

Likes to throw himself into the unknown and into adventure; he is agile, tough and enthusiastic. Attracted to long voyages, to discover the unknown.
Weaknesses: takes great risks in throwing himself into the unknown and into adventure. Audacious, bold and rebellious. Unable to stay in one place, is always ready to risk everything to achieve his goal.

Mercury in Cancer

He adapts to every situation that arises, has a good understanding, is discerning and is full of insight. He is lucid and thinks things through. He likes to please and to create a good impression.
Weaknesses: strong tendency to be influenced by those around him. Of changeable and unstable ideas, he is quickly convinced by fine words, even if at the beginning he did not share the person's point of view.

Venus in Virgo

Gives help to sick and old people. He is very devoted, does not show emotions; he is prudish and never lets himself go, either through fear of ridicule or through fear of not being loved in return as much as he loves. Always suspects the feelings of others. He is therefore sometimes too undemonstrative, so the other (thinking she is not loved) will leave.
Weaknesses: likes to flirt and provoke. He is perfectly in command of his own feelings, which often lack passion or force. His love is never for free but must automatically bring a bonus, be it only an intellectual pleasure.

Mars in Taurus

He is a choleric type, loud-mouthed. He is masterful, dominates and imposes himself forcefully. He carries on to the end of a goal, achieves it and undertakes another action with the same strong will and enthusiasm.
Weaknesses: he is tenacious and stubborn. The rages, which are usually restricted to words, are frightening.

Jupiter in Aries

He is open, loyal, correct and honest. He is ambitious, of good character and likes being amused.
Weaknesses: he is often in a bad mood. Irritation, disagreement, rages.

Saturn in Cancer

Invests more in his interior reality than in the outside world. He saves to buy property.
Weaknesses: melancholy and solitude. A solitude that is nevertheless welcome because he likes to stay peacefully at home.

Uranus in Libra

Well-developed artistic leanings. His balance can be upset by too great an independence.

Neptune in Sagittarius

Likes long voyages, things foreign, water.

Pluto in Libra

Brings changes.

Sign and ascendant

Cancer ascendant Scorpio

The planets in the houses

The planetary positions in the houses express the facts relative to destiny.

Sun in IX

Prolonged scientific research. High ideals. He is gifted for languages and it is even more interesting for him to live abroad. Professionally successful abroad.

Moon in I

Very sensitive. Fantasizes. He is easily frightened, he is fearful, shy, prudent and emotional.

Mercury in VIII

Has a fear of death, but who doesn't? He can be tormented at night. He likes research, investigation, enquiries. Studies well.

Venus in X

His best years are in the parental home and also the last years of life. That said, the rest are not unhappy, but contain certain hurdles. Love can help in professional life, he has a gift for seduction. He likes to entertain; he likes comfort and the attractions of home-life.

Mars in VI

He works with great pleasure and flat out but meets with problems at work, where professional rivalry blocks his ideas and enjoyment.

Jupiter in V

He likes games and distractions. He has passion which lights up his days. He is lucky in love, but also professionally, with pleasant working conditions and duties. He loves his children and gets much enjoyment from them.

Saturn in VIII

Financially not very well off, average salary. The spouse is also not rich. Possibility of a small inheritance, which helps a lot. Long life and natural death, if the aspects allow.

Uranus in XII

He has difficulty in adapting to the modern world, to new technology. He looks for a job in an isolated place.

Neptune in I

He is intuitive, sensitive. Not a fighter and is indecisive.

The houses in the signs

Ascendant in Scorpio

Emotional life certainly very changeable. Lovers will come and go, and then come back again. Sexuality is very important for him, for his stability.

House II in Sagittarius

Social success in one of the professions or in an import/export company dealing regularly with foreign countries.

House III in Capricorn

Nothing is left to chance, everything is calculated, dissected slowly and methodically, twice rather than once, in peace and quiet by himself. He is introverted, and doesn't speak about his plans until they are underway.

House IV in Pisces

He is very susceptible to the mood of those around him. A hard difficult upbringing can mark him for life. When a child, has to be protected, given confidence.

House V in Aries

Full of initiative. Things are done to the full, with energy, vigor and strength of purpose; It is the same with love life. Children will be hardy and rarely ill.

House VI in Aries

Ability to command, knows how to take up his responsibilities at work. Weak point: headaches, fevers.

House VII in Taurus

Marries for love but also well financially. A peaceful union even if exchange of ideas isn't always smooth.

House VIII in Gemini

If he is a writer, a painter or involved in another of the Arts, and if fame doesn't come when living, then it will come posthumously. Small inheritance from near relations. Take care of the lungs - if a smoker, then it is advisable to stop.

House IX in Cancer

Fertile imagination. He is easily influenced. Likes travel, especially cruises.

House X in Virgo

All medical, paramedic or social work are recommended.

House XI in Libra

Looks for friends among "well-placed" people, artists known even regionally, influential people in society, the social or political world, likes high class evenings.

House XII in Libra

Marriage doesn't bring luck, honors come as he imagined they might.

Interplanetary aspects

The interplanetary aspects have a strong influence on the character and disposition of the individual and, consequently, on his destiny.

The conjunction aspect is variable and depends above all on the nature of the conjoint planets.

109 Sextile Mercury - Mars

He likes to discuss, likes polemic. He has good judgement and is determined. He is a worker and has lots of energy. He has a lively intelligence and goes to the heart of things.

-104 Square Sun - Jupiter

He is negligent, spendthrift. He goes to excesses of all sorts. He is proud and arrogant, and considers himself much superior to others.

88 Conjunction Sun - Saturn

He likes to work alone, quietly. He pays attention to detail, is serious, methodical, patient and can take on long, difficult and delicate tasks, and complete them.

-79 Square Moon - Midheaven

He has an irresolute nature, with sudden changes of humor. He is unstable and does not follow through on his own objectives. This instability shows itself not only in professional life but also in love life and friendships.

-73 Opposition Jupiter - Uranus

He is too independent and his liberty is all-important. He lacks diplomacy, and his extravagance is shocking. He likes verbal battles and espouses extremist ideas in order to shock his companions. He has a number of internal tensions.

66 Conjunction Moon - Neptune

-64 Square Sun - Uranus

His independence and need for liberty are all-important. He does not accept constraints or barriers. Mainly extravagant eccentricity.

61 Trine Sun - Moon

He has lots of vitality. He likes public life, he is popular and his company is appreciated. He is balanced, at ease with himself and gets on very well with his parents.

58 Conjunction Venus - Midheaven

He has good taste, has an affectionate nature, his love is warm and deep, based on intellectual understanding and common tastes. His friends are useful in furthering his career.

-56 Square Jupiter - Saturn

He is indifferent to what goes on around him, is mistrustful and always unsatisfied. He is easily irritated.

-35 Square Mercury - Pluto

He is impatient. He likes contradiction and is irascible. His arguments are noisy and animated.

35 Sextile Uranus - Midheaven

He must have a job that allows him complete freedom, something non-routine. He likes change, has a lot of energy and knows how to influence others in spite of his originality.

-23 Opposition Mars - Ascendant

He is quarrelsome, critical and violent. His success is obtained by dubious means.

22 Sextile Neptune - Pluto

-20 Square Venus - Neptune

He lacks self-confidence and his ideals are not easily to achieve. In love, he is unstable, unfaithful and deceitful. He is easy-going and follows others, he does not take the initiative.

17 Trine Sun - Ascendant

13 Trine Saturn - Ascendant

He is serious, sober, thoughtful, pays attention to detail. He likes to be with older people.

-11 Square Moon - Venus

While he is gay and gracious, he is also inconstant and capricious. He has a changeable nature. A varied love life and a sometimes dubious morality. He is weak and easily influenced, and can get involved in unfortunate situations because of a lack of understanding.

10 Trine Venus - Mars

He is amorous, not a peaceful and calm lover but a passionate one with a strong temperament. He is demonstrative in love, and likes healthy pleasures. He enjoys life to the full.

9 Trine Jupiter - Midheaven

He is a high liver, likes to have fun but knows what he wants and does whatever necessary to get it. He wants to - and does - succeed socially. After a hard day's work, a good well-lubricated meal in the company of friends is just the ticket.

-4 Square Saturn - Uranus

He does not like routine, whether at work or in his emotional life. He fights to keep his independence, his freedom of action. He would gladly re-make the world.

1 Trine Moon - Saturn

He controls his feelings. He has a sense of duty, of self-esteem and is prudent. [He can concentrate on a long-term task, manual or intellectual. [He perseveres and is serious in everything [he does.

Thanks Adamist.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Astrology [Re: MAIA]
    #774890 - 07/25/02 03:19 AM (22 years, 2 days ago)

He does not like routine, whether at work or in his emotional life. He fights to keep his independence, his freedom of action. He would gladly re-make the world.

(Nothing particular about this passage. Just an example.)
Now how in the hell does one come up with this type of synopsis from the positions of the planets? As per usual, never got a straight answer on this...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #775480 - 07/25/02 08:19 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

Astrology use scientific facts in the mapping of human consciousness and as keys to the understanding of experience. This is an interpretative process, which does not depend on accepting particular theories about how planets can affect us, or on whether they are a sort of synchronous clock ticking along with psychological and social factors on earth, or on some other causal process. The strength of astrology comes from the accumulated knowledge of centuries of research and observation. Combined with accurate mathematical and scientific data, today's astrologers can use this established knowledge in the generation of valuable psychological, economic, or predictive profiles.
If you try to find a straight scientific answer to how a planet can directly affect someones personality, you won't find any, i compare it to the nuclear explosion dilema, science knows that a nuclear explosion is destructive, that's a deductable assumption, but do science knows the exact number of atoms involved in the chain reaction ? No, there are too many variables, still you concluded, using scientific knowlodge, wich was the extent and effects of the reaction. Also, modern science, can not explain the exact influence a planet has in human personality, then it refuses to make any deduction about that influence because it doesn't have any "valid scientific" methods and tools to do so, it's prooven that magnetic fields of astral bodies such as the moon have a direct influence not only on the tides but also affects the pressure of the blood stream on animals and the growing cicle on plants. Astrology like science in the nuclear explosion example, doesn't know the full extent of the influence of the planets, it can't quantify, but by doing several observations about their influence trough the centuries, astrologists made several deductions and created a system that could correlate those deductions.
The system has flaws and could be innacurate in the interpretation, but it has a credibility to some extent because it uses scientific (astronomical and mathematical) methods as part of the study, the more variables you can obtain and understand, the more accurate can be the interpretation, that's why there are good and not so good astrologers and also good and not so good methods.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (07/25/02 08:22 AM)

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Astrology [Re: MAIA]
    #775493 - 07/25/02 08:27 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

MAIA wrote:
"Do a search at Altavista on the query "esoteric science" wich is what astrology is considered, you shouldn't find any"

This is the silliest argument I have ever encountered for calling astrology a science. The increased belief in astrology in our society is a sign of the overall decline in the quality of education and the tendencey of the more intelligent to have fewer children while the ignorant breed like bunnies.

Think man, think! Do you have any idea what is contained in that bony sphere shaped growth on top of your neck? It is the most highly developed bio-computer on the planet. I know it doesn't come with a user's manual, but how intellectually undisciplined can you be?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

Edited by Autonomous (07/25/02 08:36 AM)

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Astrology [Re: Autonomous]
    #775561 - 07/25/02 09:03 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

In reply to:

The increased belief in astrology in our society is a sign on the overall decline of the quality of education




Can you proove what you are saying ?
You make a subjective statment to argument my ideas ? Well, this is what i really call intellectually undisciplined. There are more inteligent ways to make your point you know.

In reply to:

and the tendencey of the more intelligent to have fewer children while the ignorant breed like bunnies.




I have one daughter, does that make me intelligent ?

In reply to:

Think man, think! Do you have any idea what is contained in that bony sphere shaped growth on top of your neck? It is the most highly developed bio-computer on the planet. I know it doesn't come with a user's manual, but how intellectually undisciplined can you be?




You don't need to be harsh on me, i only wrote that becasue i didn't have time to write more, i have life and responsabilities besides being sited in front of this computer, do you want me to be sorry or what ?
So, here's my argument, is astrology a science ? The simple answer is yes - and no.
Astrology, like medicine, is an art based on a science. Scientific observations, measurements and calculations are used in astrology to generate the framework for symbolic patterns. These patterns can reveal about the way our world is constructed; they can enable us to analyse, explain and predict social, political, emotional and other characteristics of life on earth. A vast database of analystical techniques and interpretative commentary has been accumulated over the centuries, through the dedicated observations and practical applications of astrological practitioners. Astrologers use scientific facts in the mapping of human consciousness and as keys to the understanding of experience.

In reply to:

I know it doesn't come with a user's manual



I can email you the chapters i have . HEX|115|119|97|6D|69|00|66|75|6E|01|

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Astrology [Re: MAIA]
    #775666 - 07/25/02 09:47 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

Where is this mysterious astrology database that chronicals hundreds or thousands of years of stored observations?
Nowhere!

Where did all the character snippets listed in your previous post come from?
Someone's imagination.

How can one astrology chart accurately describe 1,000 people born at the same day and time?
It can't.



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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #775678 - 07/25/02 09:52 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

An astrological chart provides a *general* overview of *general* characteristics. Other factors include genetics and environment, of course. But I personally don't think those are the only factors.


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Re: Astrology [Re: Swami]
    #775972 - 07/25/02 11:36 AM (22 years, 1 day ago)

"Where did all the character snippets listed in your previous post come from?"

They could be called A,B,C,D whatever, one things is denying the existence of such characters asthe importance of their existence is relative and i personaly don't identify myself with their meaning, another thing is denying the influence planets and astral bodies have over man.

"How can one astrology chart accurately describe 1,000 people born at the same day and time?"
No it can't and it's not its inttention, but as Adamist said ,there are other factors to be considerer, you can consider astrology one out of many ambiental factors.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,512
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: Astrology [Re: Adamist]
    #776045 - 07/25/02 12:01 PM (22 years, 1 day ago)

I can make up a general overview of general characteristics in my head. About anyone. Whether I've met them or not.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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OfflineAdamist
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Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
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Re: Astrology [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #776130 - 07/25/02 12:43 PM (22 years, 1 day ago)

Good job.
Why don't you go write horoscopes for local newspapers?


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