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OfflineAdamist
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Why I think astrology is somewhat valid
    #1237357 - 01/21/03 04:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The Earth's seasons change depending on how far away it is from the sun.

I think that the 'collective mind' of humanity also changes using this Law as a molding tool. This is what I think is attempted to explain through the system of Astrology, which I think is just a primitive misinterpratation of how human being's personalities are divided. I think that like everything else on this planet, we change when the position that we are in relation to the sun changes.

Comments, arguements? :smile: 


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237393 - 01/21/03 04:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe you've already seen my arguments against the validity of astrology... Need I post that lengthy list of scientific, experimental findings again?

I think that our personalities are pretty much a result of how we were raised and the experiences we have in life.  I don't think there is anything in the flaming balls of gas out in space or the planets that revolve around those flaming balls of gas that can dictate who you will be or how you will act or anything like that.  And they certainly cannot determine the future!

It's all hogwash and balderdash in my opinion!  And bullshit, too!  :blush:

To each his own, though, Adamist!  :smile:

Peace & Love,

-RebelSteve 


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237397 - 01/21/03 04:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think it would be interesting if it were done more scientifically.

I'd like to know how much more likely I am to get an ingrown toenaill when mars and the horsehead nebula are in full paradox.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1237410 - 01/21/03 05:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think there is anything in the flaming balls of gas out in space or the planets that revolve around those flaming balls of gas that can dictate who you will be or how you will act or anything like that. And they certainly cannot determine the future!



What if we are that flaming ball of gas?  :crazy:

As far as I can tell, our sun is the source of all energy inside this solar system, which includes us. This would make us reflections or dreams of the sun. Can you see my reasoning? 


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Edited by Adamist (01/21/03 05:12 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237464 - 01/21/03 05:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Something born at a moment has the properties of that moment.  :wink: 


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: ]
    #1237506 - 01/21/03 05:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I like that, Max.
It basically sums up why I think astrology is valid.

The best way I can describe it is: "gravity" on a very small scale, the effects of which are minfiested in consciousness.  :crazy:       


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: ]
    #1237587 - 01/21/03 05:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Something born at a moment has the properties of that moment.



That is what's along my lines of thoughts, too.  :smile: 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: ]
    #1237596 - 01/21/03 05:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Something born at a moment has the properties of that moment.

*throws up*
What-the-fuck-ever, man... fate is an excuse for inaction.
Determinism is for those who accept the "fact" that they can't change anything and therefore DON'T try.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Sclorch]
    #1237600 - 01/21/03 05:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Astrology does not necessarily equal determinism. :smile: 


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237753 - 01/21/03 06:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Earth's seasons change depending on how far away it is from the sun.





Ah, well, you know the seasons change because of the angle the sun hits at, which varies due to the earth having an axis.

You know the whole earth doesn't go into winter and summer, as something governed by distance would indicate, on one half it's winter, on the other it's summer. In the middle, no winter, summer.

It's still a good idea.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1237764 - 01/21/03 06:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thankyou, I did not include that in my thinking.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237766 - 01/21/03 06:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Astrology does not necessarily equal determinism.

That sentence doesn't necessarily say anything.
Please explain.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Sclorch]
    #1237780 - 01/21/03 06:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That sentence doesn't necessarily say anything.
Please explain.



I think that what is often called fate is just a way for us to describe the 'tides of life', or the 'cards that are dealt'. We do decide what we do, but our list of choices are pre-determined. :smile: 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237833 - 01/21/03 07:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

We do decide what we do, but our list of choices are pre-determined.

Soft determinism.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Sclorch]
    #1237843 - 01/21/03 07:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

LOL, did you make that label up?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237848 - 01/21/03 07:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Nope.


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1237877 - 01/21/03 07:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As far as I can tell, our sun is the source of all energy inside this solar system, which includes us. This would make us reflections or dreams of the sun. Can you see my reasoning?

No... I can't see your reasoning. There are no reflections or dreams involved. It is all science.

The sun's energy enters Earth's atmosphere and activates an electron transport chain inside the chloroplasts of photosynthesizing plants. Through a complex process, the sun's energy is then converted into photosythate, or food (in the form of sugars) for the plant.

We then eat the plants (either directly or indirectly) and somehow our bodies convert that organic matter into energy for us to live.

We also need the sun's energy to supply our bodies with a certain vitamin, which results from a chemical reaction that occurs when sunlight touches our skin. I'm not sure of the specifics of the reaction, but it is known and understood by science.

We do rely on the sun's energy. However, there are no reflections or dreams involved. There are very simple, concrete, scientifically understood reasons why we need the sun's energy, which I touched on very briefly. There's nothing mystical about it!

Also, the sun is not the only source of energy in the solar system. I've seen some shows on the Discovery channel about ecosystems that have been found deep on the ocean floor, where there is no sunlight to be found at all. The organisms that live down there have found other means to live and obtain energy, which are completely alien to us.

There are also ecosystems, although not amazingly diverse, that occur inside of caves where, again, no sunlight is to be found.

Oh, by the way... If astrology is valid, do the stars and planets affect plants and animals, too? Or only humans? Just wondering...

Hope some of the stuff I said made sense....

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


Edited by RebelSteve33 (01/21/03 07:39 PM)


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1237889 - 01/21/03 07:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

For those who haven't seen it, here is "the list" that I mentioned earlier... I posted it in reply to an astrology thread that Adamist created sometime during the summer. I think it speaks for itself:

Gauquelin, M.
Zodiac and Personality: An Empirical Study
Skeptical Inquirer, 6:3, 57
1982
Compiled personality profiles from biographies of 2000 sports figures, actors, scientists, and writers. Compared these profiles with personality traits associated with the sign of the sun, moon, and ascendant according to eight astrology texts. No correlation was found using either the sidereal or tropical zodiac.

Press, N., Michelsen, N.F., Russel, L., Shannon, J., Stark, M.
The New Yourk Suicide Study
Journal of Geocosmic Research, 2, 23-47
1978
Examined records of suicides in NYC from 1969 to 1973. Selected all suicides who were born in NYC and for which birth data was available. This resulted in 311 suicide cases. For each of these, a control subject was randomly chosen who was born in the same borough and year. The suicides and matching controls were divide into three groups according to year of suicide.
A computer program was used to test 100,000 different astrological factors in each of the 622 birth charts for significance between suicide and control groups. None of the factors consistently correlated with the suicide cases.

Culver, R.
Sun Sign Sunset
Pachert
1979

Van Deusen, E.
Astrogenetics
Doubleday
1976

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 147
1977
The above three references examined the correlation between sun sign and over 60 occupations. The results of all three were negative -- no correlation was found between occupation and sun sign.

Dean G., Mather, A.
Recent Advances in Natal Astrology p113
The Astrological Association
1977

Silverman, B., Witmer, M.
Astrological Indicators of Personality
Journal of Psychology, 87, 89
1974

Per Dalen,
Season of Birth
American Elsevier Publishing
1975

Pellegrini, R.,
The Astrological Theory of Personality
Journal of Psychology, 85, 21
1973

The above 4 references all found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits as measured by standardized psychological tests, mostly the California Personality Inventory (CPI). However, Pellegrini found a slight correlation between the CPI femininity index and season of birth.

Illingworth, D., Syme, G.
Birthday and Femininity
Journal of Social Psychology, 103, 153
1977

Tyson, G.
Astrology or Season of Birth: A 'Split-Sphere' Test
Journal of Psychology, 95, 285
1977
These two studies found no correlation between sun sign and personality traits measured by the CPI, including the femininity index.

Mayes, B., Klugh, H.
Birthdate Psychology: A Look at Some New Data
Journal of Psychology 99, 27
1978
Compiled natal charts and results of Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory and the Leary Interpersonal Check List for 196 subjects. Compared 13 personality traits with sun signs, signs and houses of the moon and 8 planets, and with five planetary aspects. No correlations were found.

Mayo, J., White, O., Eysenck, H.
An Empirical Study of the Relation between Astrology Factors and Personality
Journal of Clinical Psychology, 105, 229
1979

Jackson, M.
Extroversion, Neuroticism, and Date of Birth: A Southern Hemisphere Study
Journal of Psychology, 101, 197
1979
These two studies found correlations between astrological factors and the Introversion/Extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Veno, A., Pammunt, P.
Astrological Factors and Personality: a Southern Hemisphere Replication
Journal of Psychology, 101, 73
1979
Failed to duplicate the correlation found above.

Pawlik, K., Buse, L.,
Self-attribution as a Differential Psychological Moderating Variable
Zeitschrift fur Sozilpsychologie, 10, 54
1979
Showed that the correlation above could be explained by the fact that some of the subjects knew what the expected results would be for their astrological signs.

Eysenck, H.,
Astrology: Science or Superstition?
Encounter, Dec 1979, p85


Jackson, M., Fiebert, M. S.
Introversion-Extroversion and Astrology
Journal of Psychology, 105, 155
1980

Saklofske, D., Kelly, I., McKerracher, D.
An Empirical Study of Personality and Astrological Factors
Journal of Psychology, 110, 275
1982
These three studies found no correlation between astrological factors (sun and planetary) and personality, including the introversion/extroversion index of the Eysenck Personality Inventory.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astrology: True or False, p215
Prometheus
1988
A double blind test of astrologer John McCall was organized at the University of Virginia by Charles Tolvert and Philip Ianna. McCall claimed an 80 percent success rate in choosing the correct natal horoscope for a subject from three false ones. Twenty-eight subjects were chosen according to McCalls requirements (naturally born caucasians). McCall had 7 successes out of 28 trials, exactly the number predicted by chance.

Silverman, Bernie I.,
Contemporary Astronomy by J. Pasachoff, cf p437
W. B. Saunders
1977

Kop, P., Heuts, B.
Journal of Interdisciplenary Cycle Research 5, 19
1974

The above 2 studies found no correlation between marriage/divorce rate and sun sign combinations in the state of Michigan and the city of Amsterdam, respectively.

John McGervey
Physicist
Case Western Reserve University

Found that the sun signs of 6,000 politicians and 10,000 scientists were randomly distributed.

Shawn Carlson
A Double-blind Test of Astrology
Nature, 318, 419
1985
116 adults filled out California Personality Index surveys and provided natal data. One set of natal data and the results of three personality surveys (one of which was for the same person as the natal data) were given to an astrologer who was to interpret the natal data and determine which of the three CPI results belonged to the same subject as the natal data. The San Francisco chapter of the National Council for Geocosmic Research recommended the 28 astrologers who took part. They approved the procedure in advance and predicted that they would select the correct CPI profiles in more that 50 per cent of the trials. Out of 116 trials, the astrologers chose the correct CPI 34 per cent of the time. This agrees with the random chance prediction of 1 of 3 trails producing a correct choice. Horoscopes were prepared by professional astronomers for 83 subjects. Each subject was given three charts, one of which belonged to the subject. In 28 of 83 trials the subject chose the correct chart. This is the success rate expected for random chance.

Dean, Geoffrey
(trying to find reference)

Astrological readings were done for a groups of subjects. The content of some of the readings were reversed (changed phrases describing the subject to their opposites). Subjects reported that both the reversed and normal readings applied 95 per cent of the time.

Gauquelin, M.
L'Influence des Astres, Etude Critique et Experimentale
Dauphin Press
1955
Found no correlation between occupation and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Moon at the time of birth.

Gauquelin, M.
The Cosmic Clocks, p84
Henry Regnery Co.
1967
Found random distribution of the house containing Saturn for successful individuals, and the house containing Mars for murderers.

Barth, J., Bennet, J.
Leonardo 7, 235
1974

Found no correlation between occupation, medical problems, height, longevity, and the zodiac signs containing Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter at the time of birth.

Culver, R., Ianna, P.
Astronomy Quarterly, 1, 85
1977
Pretty much the same study and results as the previous reference. Additionally, no correlation was found between occupation, medical problems, etc. and angular separation (along the ecliptic) of planet pairs at time of birth.

Dean, G.
Does Astrology Need to be True? Part 1: A Look at the Real Thing
Skeptical Inquirer, 11, 166
1987
Astrologers prepared horoscopes for subjects correct natal data. Reversed charts were then constructed from the correct charts by retaining the sun sign, but reversing all of the planetary aspects. Half of the subjects were given correct charts, the other half were given reversed charts. There was no correlation between the perceived accuracy of the charts and whether the subject was given a correct or reversed chart.

Dwyer T.
Unpublished word described in Dean, 1987.

Horoscopes were prepared for correct natal data and for a birth date 5 years and 6 months before the correct date, with the correct sun sign retained. Thirty subjects were given the correct and incorrect charts. Half of the subjects picked the correct chart, half chose the incorrect chart.

From James Lippard (lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu):
McGrew, John H., McFall, Richard M.
A Scientific Inquiry Into the Validity of Astrology
Journal of Scientific Exploration, 4, 75-83 1990
Six expert astrologers independently attempted to match 23 astrological birth charts to the corresponding case files of 4 male and 19 female volunteers. Case files contained information on the volunteers' life histories, full-face and profile photographs, and test profiles from the Strong-Campbell Vocational Interest Blank and the Cattell 16-P.F. Personality Inventory. Astrologers did no better than chance or than a nonastrologer control subject at matching the birth charts to the personal data; this result was independent of astrologers' confidence ratings for their predicted matches. Astrologers also failed to agree with one another's predictions.

Marbell, Neil Z., Novak, Angela R., Heal, Laird W., Fleming, Land D., Burton, Jeannine Marie
Self Selection of Astrologically Derived Personality Descriptions: An Empirical Test of the Relationship Between Astrology and Psychology
NCGR Journal, Winter 1986-87, 29-44
Twenty-four female subjects were asked to recognize as true or untrue complex personality characteristics describing themselves and to select one of three personality profiles as their own; personality information had been derived by "blinded" astrologers from natal charts representing the moment of birth. Three different experiments varied as to the complexity of the astrologically derived personality characteristics, method of test material administration, and subjects' knowledge of the astrological basis for personality information. Overall results for the three experiments evaluated using cumulative binomial distribution were significantly non-random, with p<.001 for 15 valid trials and p<.01 for all 24 trials including nine found non-eligible for inclusion. These results supported the validity of astrology's capability to generate unique personality descriptors that subjects affirm by selection as representative of their own personalities

-RebelSteve



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1237943 - 01/21/03 08:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Don't confuse people with facts and studies, they're poor tools for facilitating blind acceptance.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Why I think astrology is somewhat valid [Re: Adamist]
    #1239527 - 01/22/03 12:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Surely the planets have some effect on our state of mind though. The seas respond to the moon...as do our bodies and the inner juices of the brain! I would think that would have some effect.

Oh, I don't believe in determinism anymore. As we develop from babies into adults, we appear to separate from the world. Our causal processes become increasingly independent of the causal processes outside of us, especially in the mental realm. A gap develops that allows us to be influenced by outside situations, but not determined by them. The baby begins life nearly as intimately connected with his or her world as in the womb. As life goes on we appear to gain some control over our life situation.


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