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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045203 -

Morrowind said:
not quite. There are unexplainable occurances in reality; does that invalidate reality, until something explains the occurance?


again, this is a different matter. i was talking about theories, and you have now changed the subject to phenomena.

theories attempt to describe phenomena (i.e. occurances). if a theory accurately describes the phenomena it was intended to describe, then it is a good theory.

unexplainable phenomena simply mean that no one has formulated a theory to describe them yet.

Quote:
Astrology, at least some of it, is direct abstraction from reality. It shows no logical mechanism because it is based on observation and not logic. Note that I completely separate these two. Astrology is irrational to a degree, but that is reflective of reality itself.


exactly. the theory has its origins in observation, but the reasoning used to get from the observations to the theory is illogical.

in case it hasn't sunk in yet, let me reiterate why astrology is a bad theory:
-there is no fully explainable mechanism as to how it works.
-it does not match observations.
-it does not make accurate predictions about the future.

the 2nd and 3rd points there are general statements. yes, there are a few cases in which astrology makes accurate predictions, but as i said before, the cases in which it doesn't work invalidate the theory.

Quote:
As this is a case, it is impossible to apply a systematic approach toward interpretting astrology. It must be applied subjectively, but at the same time it is based off of objectivity.


please explain what you mean by 'applied subjectively'.

Quote:
That said, what have you looked at in astrology? Have you looked at mayan astrology? Tell me what you think of this:
http://www.icandosomething.com/mayancalendar
http://www.astrodreamadvisor.com/free_mayan_readings.html

the first one is concise and provides you with your sign. The second one expands on your sign ( yours is ONLY the first and last section on the html page.. the rest are others in immediate relation to you )


wow, lots of undefined terms conjugated by philosophical-sounding language. does it explain anything, does it make accurate predictions? no.

Quote:
In my experience, yellows and whites most often fail to see validity in the results. Based on your scientific position, i would guess that you are either red or yellow. Based on the above and what you are arguing, i guess yellow ( very broad still ). Note that this is purely my guess and is just me trying to practice figuring this stuff out :p ( i see at least one very very large problem in my doing so, however )


yes, i got yellow. what has my name got to do with it anyway? i noticed that whatever name i put in, i get the same result.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (04/12/05 10:59 AM)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045234 -

Morrowind said:
astrology isn't a theory.


ok, but there is a theory behind it, which is roughly along the lines of celestial bodies influencing our behaviour. science isn't a theory either, but there are scientific theories.

Quote:
Scientific method is a system and its flaw is basically that it is incredibly slow. The Universe is practically infinite.


a system that gives correct results slowly is better than one that gives incorrect results quickly, IMO.

Quote:
Consider them as data systems: you need something to interpret data, and you need data. With logic based systems, the interpretting mechanism works well, but adding data and sorting it makes it very impractical. With observation based abstraction, you have the data at your fingertips, but intepretting it is both tricky and a skill.


we're getting into opinions now. IMO, tricky interpretation is impractical.

Quote:
In short, science is too slow and astrology is not systematic and thus has no objectively verifiable accuracy.


if it has no verifiable accuracy, then why the hell should anyone believe it or use it? especially when there is an alternative method that does have verifiable accuracy.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045266 -

hmmm

yellow what btw? From your retort I am going to guess Yellow human. But thats trickier, and if so I don't know why you would be here. Eh i guess at this point i need a lot more experience, because tone has a lot more influence.


Quote:
wow, lots of undefined terms conjugated by philosophical-sounding language. does it explain anything, does it make accurate predictions? no.


But don't you see, if you understand the irrationality behind that language, you can grasp the meaning of what it initially observed.


Again, as a systematic method towards deducing a conclusion, astrology is utter crap. But as a tool, it is incredibly powerful in understanding humanity and its relation to the Universe. Can everyone use a boomerang to hunt? No. I've tried and I have no clue how, but some people are incredibly skilled at it. Astrology is a skill which not everyone can use. Science is a systematic method which anyone can use. It's more democratic I suppose.


So, you're right. Astrology as a theory is baseless. Astrology as a method is useful in the right hands though. If I had to strip it down to make it clearer - consider astrology as only a couple of level-of-abstraction steps from reality. Science would be a healthy run away from reality because it is deduced to the bare essentials of reasoning. If you want to use astrology, you need to experiment with it and form a mental web of interpretation - astrology is a steppnig stone. If you want to use science, just use it as-is.

Quote:
please explain what you mean by 'applied subjectively'.


The same way that art is applied subjectively. Astrology is limp without guidance.



Quote:
yes, i got yellow. what has my name got to do with it anyway? i noticed that whatever name i put in, i get the same result.


It has nothing to do with it. Inputting your name just makes the top of the page display your name for convenience. Why? Damned if I know.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045303 -

Quote:
ok, but there is a theory behind it, which is roughly along the lines of celestial bodies influencing our behaviour. science isn't a theory either, but there are scientific theories.

Hmmmmmm.

I don't think so. The progressions follow some form of mathematics, but they do not always offer an explanation. From what I understand, the Mayans claim that aliens gave them the system. Very ambiguous statement, but it destroys all credibility of there being logical theory behind it. Logical systems are pure. Observation is not pure.


Quote:
a system that gives correct results slowly is better than one that gives incorrect results quickly, IMO.


Here is the crux of the problem! in your opinion



Quote:
if it has no verifiable accuracy, then why the hell should anyone believe it or use it? especially when there is an alternative method that does have verifiable accuracy.



Because not everyone is the same! Ultimately, astrology and logic are but two flavors of exploration. Why doesn't EVERYONE become a scientist ? I assure you, it is not because they are not interested in the truth and the Universe. All sections of humanity are constantly inspiring each other - art can provoke science, and vice versa.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045361 -

Morrowind said:
yellow what btw? From your retort I am going to guess Yellow human. But thats trickier, and if so I don't know why you would be here. Eh i guess at this point i need a lot more experience, because tone has a lot more influence.


i got yellow planetary seed.


Quote:
But don't you see, if you understand the irrationality behind that language, you can grasp the meaning of what it initially observed.


i'm sorry, but i can't understand irrationality by definition.

Quote:
Again, as a systematic method towards deducing a conclusion, astrology is utter crap. But as a tool, it is incredibly powerful in understanding humanity and its relation to the Universe. Can everyone use a boomerang to hunt? No. I've tried and I have no clue how, but some people are incredibly skilled at it. Astrology is a skill which not everyone can use. Science is a systematic method which anyone can use. It's more democratic I suppose.


false analogy. someone who can't use a boomerang can still learn the mechanism behind how a boomerang works. nobody can understand the mechanism behind how astrology works because there isn't one.

you can't go down the line of 'some people have secret powers which you'll never understand', because that would just result in a 'no they don't - yes they do' argument. to convince someone else that astrology works, you need to provide evidence.

Quote:
So, you're right. Astrology as a theory is baseless. Astrology as a method is useful in the right hands though.


i'm afraid that i won't believe it until i see evidence for it working consistently. i am very empirical, as you've probably noticed :smile: until i see astrology make accurate predictions, i have no reason to believe it.

Quote:
If I had to strip it down to make it clearer - consider astrology as only a couple of level-of-abstraction steps from reality. Science would be a healthy run away from reality because it is deduced to the bare essentials of reasoning. If you want to use astrology, you need to experiment with it and form a mental web of interpretation - astrology is a steppnig stone. If you want to use science, just use it as-is.


you're going to have to define a few terms for me here:
-level-of-abstraction step
-mental web of interpretation
-stepping stone

Quote:
The same way that art is applied subjectively. Astrology is limp without guidance.


but art is simply expression of thought. i don't see the anology.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045376 -

Morrowind said:
I don't think so. The progressions follow some form of mathematics, but they do not always offer an explanation. From what I understand, the Mayans claim that aliens gave them the system. Very ambiguous statement, but it destroys all credibility of there being logical theory behind it. Logical systems are pure. Observation is not pure.


bringing aliens into it just makes it an ad vericundiam fallacy. just because the aliens gave it to them, doesn't mean its correct.

Quote:
Quote:
a system that gives correct results slowly is better than one that gives incorrect results quickly, IMO.


Here is the crux of the problem! in your opinion


my opinion is its more important to obtain correct results rather than incorrect results, no matter how long it takes. if you prefer to use a fast method that gives incorrect results, then yes this is indeed the crux of the problem and its just a difference of opinions. debate over, i guess.

Quote:
Quote:
if it has no verifiable accuracy, then why the hell should anyone believe it or use it? especially when there is an alternative method that does have verifiable accuracy.


Because not everyone is the same! Ultimately, astrology and logic are but two flavors of exploration. Why doesn't EVERYONE become a scientist ? I assure you, it is not because they are not interested in the truth and the Universe. All sections of humanity are constantly inspiring each other - art can provoke science, and vice versa.


i guess this is the same as the point above. people who value correct results choose science, people who value other things choose other things.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045420 -

eeek
your definition of art is very limited

art is not expression of thought- it is expression of anything, essentially. Im strapped on time so ill keep this post short.

first, i have nearly 0 experience with yellow seeds, so this was a useful learning experience.

It's not a false analogy because astrology could, theoretically be explained empirically. Not in our lifetimes- at the point that most of the Universe is figured out, I guarrantee that astrology will exist, but will not be called astrology and will be called some part of science, and it will not be approached the same way at ALL.



-level-of-abstraction step
Oi, do you have experience with programming? No wait Ill explain it in terms of hardware. The most developed form of looking at a hardware system is at the physical level- how each gate and circuit acts in terms of electrical signal. This level is, as an analogy, science. The next level would give purpose to the chips - ie input a + 2= output b. The next level would combine a number of input + output to do something much more complicated, and etc etc. Consider astrology a complicated program running on a computer. Figuring it out in terms of circuits would take AGES, but it's possible.

-mental web of interpretation
IE, YOU have to create the logic in the system. This is the hard part which makes astrology fallible- it is fallible just as much as humans are fallible

-stepping stone
um
the difference between one level abstraction to another; ie hardware circuit vs abstract use of circuits for an output

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045424 -

Quote:
i guess this is the same as the point above. people who value correct results choose science, people who value other things choose other things.



Heheheh

you'd be amazed what people are capable of sometimes.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045557 -

Morrowind said:
It's not a false analogy because astrology could, theoretically be explained empirically.


true, but until such an explanation arises, i have no reason to believe it.

lets develop the analogy, from my perspective at least. say i'd never heard or seen of boomerangs before. someone tells me about boomerangs, that you can throw them and they come back to you, but offers no aerodynamic explanation as to how they work. i wouldn't believe it because a) i've never seen a boomerang work, and b) i don't have a mechanism as to how one might work. this is how i see astrology; i've seen no evidence for it working, and no mechanism as to how it might work, so i don't believe it. i'm not saying that astrology is impossible (i said this pretty much explicitly a few pages back), but i have no reason to believe it. anything is possible, i'm open to that, but i don't believe anything until i have a logical reason to.

Quote:
-level-of-abstraction step
Oi, do you have experience with programming? No wait Ill explain it in terms of hardware. The most developed form of looking at a hardware system is at the physical level- how each gate and circuit acts in terms of electrical signal. This level is, as an analogy, science. The next level would give purpose to the chips - ie input a + 2= output b. The next level would combine a number of input + output to do something much more complicated, and etc etc. Consider astrology a complicated program running on a computer. Figuring it out in terms of circuits would take AGES, but it's possible.

-mental web of interpretation
IE, YOU have to create the logic in the system. This is the hard part which makes astrology fallible- it is fallible just as much as humans are fallible

-stepping stone
um
the difference between one level abstraction to another; ie hardware circuit vs abstract use of circuits for an output


i think i'm beginning to see what you're getting at. i must say, i've learnt more from you about the philosophy of astrology than anyone else. but my problems with it remain: i've seen no evidence for it, there is no mechanism for it. for me to believe astrology would take a leap of blind faith, and blind faith isn't something that's present in my personality.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045628 -

Why don't you like blind faith? :smirk:

Additionally certain celestial phenomena is associated with an increase in certain human, as well as animal actions... but the correlations are evident.

As far as the sun interacting with life, it affects everything on a different level in terms of it being a form of sustenance for most forms of life.

http://gfisher.org/chapter_8.htm (A nice history lesson)

*U32.  Astrologers, on the other hand, seldom pay attention to forces of gravity or curvature of space in making their predictions.  A common complaint of present-day astronomers, physicists, cosmologists and the like is that astrologers can demonstrate no power of celestial objects and their processes which can account for what the astrologers claim are their influences on terrestrial creatures and their affairs.  It is maintained by most physical scientists of today that gravitation, electromagnetic effects, nuclear forces, and the like, exerted by celestial objects (presumably other than our earth) have never been demonstrated to have the kind of influences on terrestrial affairs that present-day astrologers maintain they have.  Astrologers often reply to this by observing that such influences by powers whose existence is accepted by physical scientists haven't been shown not to exist, or by observing that there may be or are powers not known to or not accepted by physical scientists which do have influences on terrestrial affairs of the sort they deal with.  Arguments and disagreements of this sort have gone on since antiquity, and it doesn't look like they will be settled soon, or indeed ever.  A thesis of the present work has been that in past times, what we now call astronomy and astrology were more interwoven than they customarily are today, although they still share some basic assumptions, e.g. about predicting future positions of celestial objects and the like.  One consequence of this thesis, if it be accepted, is that what has happened in the development of astral prediction over time is a kind of specialization in connection with astral prediction, an effect which has been dominant in connection with all kinds of human affairs.  Another consequence is that one may expect to see a kind of punctuated evolution in connection with astral prediction, rather than some kind of revolution in such matters.  This has bearing on a familiar theme in history and philosophy of science, that of so-called scientific revolutions, and especially alleged "incommensurability" between theories and interpretations accepted in different eras, to use the term made popular by Thomas Kuhn.  If by "incommensurability", one means existence of basic differences of the sort common to present-day astronomers and astrologers, one can empirically verify that such incommensurability exists.  If by "incommensurability", one means that the nature of what is true about our universe between what present-day astronomers and astrologers hold can't be decided, one can empirically verify that it hasn't yet been decided.  But, as I said near the beginning of this work, I won't be concerned here with matters of truth and falsity of what astronomers and astrologers say.  I have reviewed here something about the relationship of past and present astronomy and astrology, and their practitioners and customers, in order to make a setting for the next chapter in the book by Alan Scott, Origen and the Life of the Stars (1991) which I have been considering, and I will now return to it, and in particular to Chapter 6, "The Heavenly Powers".*


http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html (on the moon and what affects it is thought to have, with a bunch of skepticism)


http://www.uwyo.edu/wjm/repro/mating.htm (hormonal/chemical effects on the basis of day length)


http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/Circadian.html (Circadian Rythm)

Indeed celestial bodies do influence behavior, without a doubt... but as to what they influence personality-wise.... :shrug:



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/12/05 12:36 PM)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4046962 -

hum. I guess we have different definitions of what works. Lets say you saw someone throw the boomerang- would you believe it works, or would you think its a hoax / trick ( still assuming that you need to know the mechanism to believe in it)?

Anyway, I do see your point. It's ultimately something I obviously disagree with, but I do see how what I'm saying could be a bit of a leap of blind faith. My personality is basically that of pure intuition, but it works for me. I've found that some people get angry at me for it, but that's because they essentially expect me to be able to explain how to understand irrationality to them.

Anyway, chaos vs order-- choose up and fight for your side ( I guess ...)



also, for
Quote:
would take a leap of blind faith


is all faith blind? When you are approaching things empirically, you are still making jumps of faith, but they are infitesimally small. Kind of like the theoretical basis for taking the integral of a curve in calculus. Those tiny amounts can really add up.

Large jumps can be risky, but they can describe some phenomena much faster, and with equal accuracy. Like an area under a curve which perfectly fits a geometric figure. Large jumps are not very comprehensive in terms of describing some things, but they give you a ton of speed so that you can tackle a million things in a fraction of the time it would take to perfectly plot out things. For example, theoretical models are all more intuitive than anything else- they concisely explain some concept, though they are very often inaccurate.


Intuitive people and empirical people need each other. Without the former, I think that there wouldn't be much variety because of the precision required. Without the latter, nothing would make any sense at all because there would be so damn much of it, and all of it inarticulate.

Anyway, I hope this made some sense.

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