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Possible explanation into the workings of astrology?
    #4040998 -

After doing some reading on the subject, a different way of understanding astrology has been brought to my attention. To summarize, the eight Sabbats are natural holidays not arbitrarily created by man, but based on the length of the days as the seasons change and things like that. The location of the stars allows one to calculate the time of year and therefore reflects Earth's natural cyclical existence. The beliefs and myths of astrology are ways by which early humans symbolized the changing of the seasons and the spiritual influences they bring. These earth-based influences are the fundamental constituency of astrology.

If you're interested, these three articles explain the concept in greater depth.

Introduction To The Sabbats

The Death of Llew, A Seasonal Interpretation

Astrology of the Magus - http://www.chaosmagic.com/archives/divination/astrology-of-the-magus.shtml (why does the hyperlink feature sometimes work and sometimes not?)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4041394 -

Attempting to explain how somethings works when it doesn't, doesn't make sense.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Swami]
    #4041408 -

Apparently sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't....  :wink:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Swami]
    #4041521 -

Swami said:
Attempting to explain how somethings works when it doesn't, doesn't make sense.

Please point out to me the faulty logic, because I don't see it...and I don't want to be misinformed.

*sprinkles star dust*

Star light, star bright, why doesn't the link work?!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4041857 -

the problem with astrology still remains: there is absolutely no way celestial bodies can influence our behaviour/personality/fate/whatever.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4041859 -

We can provide the same knowledge as to the origin and historical relevance of alchemy as well....

It's still irrelevant.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4043328 -

You see, this is an example of some real personal progress being made. I was meant to learn about astrology at this time, and indeed it took some work on my part to get passed the superficial understanding that is promoted specifically so that the truth is saved for those deserving of it. Because an ignorant citizen won't benefit from being handed the truth.

There's always a superficial layer to things, but if you know where to look there is truth in it. This way truth always wins, because you can only understand the message if you're wise enough. This way true secrecy can be maintained as the plot for Good unfolds behind the scenes, while conspirators like Bush are lead to believe they're in control.

In all concepts, all facets of life, it's important to chip away until you reach truth, until you reach reality.

"One can well imagine the anxiety in the mind of the "noble savage" as he witnessed the dwindling hours of daylight each autumn. And the sense of relief he must have felt when the year "turned the corner" at the Winter Solstice, and the days started to grow longer again, promising that Spring would indeed return."

"That the cross-quarter days should be regarded as more important than the solstices or equinoxes should come as no surprise. It is a common human experience that things reach their greatest strength, their moment of peak energy, at their midpoint. In observing a human life, for example, a person is usually at the apex of health and vigor at a point about halfway through his mortality. So, too, with most other things in nature. So, too, with each quarter of the year. The cross-quarter-days can thus be seen as the four "power points" of the year. Consequently, those power points were marked by the four most important holidays of the Witches' year which, according to the old folk calendar, also marked the turning of the seasons. These also correspond with the "tetramorph" figures of the Zodiac, and were later adopted by Christian tradition as the sigils of the four gospel writers."

"In Welsh mythology in particular, there is a startling vindication of the seasonal placement of the sun god's death, the significance of which occurred to me in a recent dream, and which I haven't seen elsewhere. Llew is the Welsh god of light, and his name means 'lion'. (The lion is often the symbol of a sun god.) He is betrayed by his 'virgin' wife Blodeuwedd, into standing with one foot on the rim of a cauldron and the other on the back of a goat. It is only in this way that Llew can be killed, and Blodeuwedd's lover, Goronwy, Llew's dark self, is hiding nearby with a spear at the ready. But as Llew is struck with it, he is not killed. He is instead transformed into an eagle.

Putting this in the form of a Bardic riddle, it would go something like this: Who can tell in what season the Lion (Llew), betrayed by the Virgin (Blodeuwedd), poised on the Balance, is transformed into an Eagle? My readers who are astrologers are probably already gasping in recognition. The sequence is astrological and in proper order: Leo (lion), Virgo (virgin), Libra (balance), and Scorpio (for which the eagle is a well-known alternative symbol). Also, the remaining icons, cauldron and goat, could arguably symbolize Cancer and Capricorn (representing summer and winter), the signs beginning with the two solstice points. So Llew is balanced between cauldron and goat, between summer and winter, on the balance (Libra) point of the autumnal equinox, with one foot on the summer solstice and one foot on the winter solstice.

This, of course, is the answer to a related Bardic riddle. Repeatedly, the 'Mabinogion' tells us that Llew must be standing with one foot on the cauldron and one foot on the goat's back in order to be killed. But nowhere does it tell us why. Why is this particular situation the only one in which Llew can be overcome? Because it represents the equinox point. And the autumnal equinox is the only time of the entire year when light (Llew) can be overcome by darkness (Goronwy)."

"We have sought reasons to explain astrology to our fellow magi in terms that rely in no way whatsoever on the movement of stars as definite factors in determining the psychology ramifications of the astrological symbolism."

"When explaining the astrological workings to the
ancient herd, ideas like "subconscious" would have been
incomprehensible to simple animals of our past. It is Our opinion that
the constellations were used simply as temporal markers to indicate
cycles of time.
We were born as a Scorpio on this material plane of existence. We have
researched much into the scorpio nature and have found ourselves to
resonate quite well with this psychological model. Why?
We were born on the 9th of November. As We started to receive input
from the world surrounding us, We began to be conditioned by the
dominate energies that would be impressed onto our undivided psyche.
The colors of autumn and all associated energies provided the broad
strokes of the painting that would evolve into the daemon known as
Ramon James Long 3. The energies of harvest and the swinging of the
sickle were the first energies to be absorbed by his "watery" psyche."

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4043432 -

You see, this is an example of some real personal progress being made.
What is?

I was meant to learn about astrology at this time,
By whom?

...and indeed it took some work on my part to get passed the superficial understanding that is promoted specifically so that the truth is saved for those deserving of it.
What truth? That astrology is baseless?

Because an ignorant citizen won't benefit from being handed the truth.
Nor will a wise being benefit from being handed a falsehood. So what?

There's always a superficial layer to things,
There is? Is this from the Celestine Prophecy Book 8? OK, what is superficial about formica ?

...but if you know where to look there is truth in it.
And if one is wacky enough, they can find truth where there isn't any.

This way truth always wins, because you can only understand the message if you're wise enough.
Truth should learn that life isn't about competition and winning. Truth needs to grow up.

This way true secrecy can be maintained as the plot for Good unfolds behind the scenes, while conspirators like Bush are lead to believe they're in control.
How did an astrology discussion segue into morality and politics?

In all concepts, all facets of life, it's important to chip away until you reach truth, until you reach reality.
If one probes deep enough into the bush, what will he discover?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Swami]
    #4043477 -

He will discover Nature in all its magic and beauty.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4043497 -

Well, glad you choose to indulge in it.

If you believe it, that's great... the thing is, the whole belief of astrology is superficial in terms of it's designation of personality traits, I wrote something in another post about how it fails to justify other celestial phenomena that affects "the energies". By way of the true dynamic nature of the solar system, and the precepts of associations provided by astrology, it should be vastly more dynamic, and take into account Comet's, asteroid's, + all the newly discovered moons/planets discovered after it's origination.

It was a bunk science to begin with as it didn't account for such. Further it's bunk because it stilll doesn't go so far as to attempt to unify all the planetary interactions in respects to the dynamic occurences. It may have a touch of truth in way of a certain form of energy imbued, however I don't believe that any accuracy can be provided as the premise is fallacious in way of it omitting knowledge that has been gained since the discovery.

In addition to that, most typical model's of astrology are based on the 12 signs, rather then the original 13. Take your pick.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4043514 -

:animal:

:mrt:

To summarize what I'm saying, astrology isn't based on the stars! It's based on things local to planet Earth.

*waves hands in air*

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4043547 -

So is god :wink:

(people)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4043590 -

Incorrect.

Astrology is a direct abstraction from reality. Reality trumps theory.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4043611 -

Morrowind said:
Incorrect.

Astrology is a direct abstraction from reality. Reality trumps theory.

Precisely. Astrology is reality in abstract, symbolic terms. And indeed it is the reality, the Earth's natural cyclical pattern, and not the cosmological theories, that should be investigated. At least, that's what I'm considering. See what I'm saying?

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4043620 -

alsey said:
the problem with astrology still remains: there is absolutely no way celestial bodies can influence our behaviour/personality/fate/whatever.


What of the moon affecting aggressive behavior in humans, as well as increased libido?

Also, one can mention tons of phenomena associated with mating patters and the moon's cycle, as they are directly influenced (lots of sea life)... I'm not saying that the planetary interactions and all that jazz affecting a person isn't possible, as I believe their is something to it, however, astrology fails as a tool to suggest just what it is.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4043631 -

Quote:
Psychoactive1984 said:... I'm not saying that the planetary interactions and all that jazz affecting a person isn't possible, as I believe their is something to it, however, astrology fails as a tool to suggest just what it is.


Psychoactive, do you understand my argument? I'm proposing that it has nothing to do with the stars. Nothing. Do you understand what I'm proposing it *does* have to do with?

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4043640 -

Yes :tongue: look who I replied to though...

I don't see how that discussion is relevant in terms of an explanation as to how it works... it's more on the basis of history, not as to how it works.

http://internet.cybermesa.com/~jasm/julian.html


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/12/05 01:03 AM)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Swami]
    #4044437 -

Swami said:
Attempting to explain how somethings works when it doesn't, doesn't make sense.


Swami why do you take pride in your ignorance?


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4044476 -

pheonix, you're still avoiding the real issue. there is no way celestial bodies can influence our personality.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044481 -

How do you know?


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4044485 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4044398#Post4044398


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4044487 -

egghead1 it was not meant to you :smile:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4044502 -

egghead1 said:
How do you know?


i don't know for certain, nothing can be known for certain. however, physics would say that celestial bodies cannot influence a person's personality.

the burden of proof is on the astrologers, since they are making the positive claim (that astrology works). if the astrologers propose a valid, working mechanism for celestial bodies affecting human personality, and provide some evidence for that, then i may be inclined to believe them.

however, until they do that, astrology is completely made-up and has no foundation in observable evidence. and, if i aply astrology to myself, it doesn't work.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044530 -

alsey said:
egghead1 said:
How do you know?


i don't know for certain, nothing can be known for certain. however, physics would say that celestial bodies cannot influence a person's personality.

the burden of proof is on the astrologers, since they are making the positive claim (that astrology works). if the astrologers propose a valid, working mechanism for celestial bodies affecting human personality, and provide some evidence for that, then i may be inclined to believe them.

however, until they do that, astrology is completely made-up and has no foundation in observable evidence. and, if i aply astrology to myself, it doesn't work.


How can you really understand something without really trying? It is impossible to prove the validity of something while assuming it is not true because this assumption will blinding you in the first place...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044614 -

Then you cannot say for certain that celestial bodies do not influence our personalities, its just your personal belief and not a solid fact either way. Who knows what revelations indian sages have had about astralogical influences and their effects. Personal experience is more important than hard proof or evidence, even if it isnt as reliable or substancial.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4044663 -

Delusion_of_Self said:
How can you really understand something without really trying? It is impossible to prove the validity of something while assuming it is not true because this assumption will blinding you in the first place...


i have tried. i have spent all my adult life as a scientist, i.e. someone who tries to understand how things work by making observations. i have observed the universe, and made inferences from my obersvations. those inferences are a set of mathematical descriptions of how the universe works. these mathematical descriptions fit what i observe perfectly, and make very accurate predictions about the future.

i have researched alternative theories, including astrology, but these theories have several problems:
-there is no explainable mechanism for how they work.
-they do not flow logically from the observations i make.
-they do not make accurate predictions of the future.

because of these, i accept the laws of physics instead of alternative theories. the laws of physics are also theories and not absolute fact, i accept that. any respectable scientist will. but the laws of physics are better theories than others because:
-they are logical.
-they match observations.
-they make accurate predictions.

we cannot know anything for certain (other than that statement in itself). that is a philosophical fact. what we can do is observe the world and make inferences. the laws of physics are the most accurate and reliable inferences made by mankind so far.

astrologers and the like seem to think that if a scientific theory isn't perfect or known to be absolute fact, then it is not valid. astrology isn't fact either. the difference is, science makes accurate predictions, astrology does not. do excuse me for believing the theory that works.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (04/12/05 07:35 AM)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4044673 -

egghead1 said:
Then you cannot say for certain that celestial bodies do not influence our personalities, its just your personal belief and not a solid fact either way.


but it is a belief based on observations. astrology is not based on observations, it is completely contrived.

if i were to say the earth rests on the back of giant turtle, would you believe me? no, because i just made it up in my head. the same goes for astrology.

Quote:
Who knows what revelations indian sages have had about astralogical influences and their effects. Personal experience is more important than hard proof or evidence, even if it isnt as reliable or substancial.


that depends on what you value. if you value sensible, working explanations for the universe, then evidence is more important.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044683 -

I prefer to expereince the universe nakedly first hand rather than make rational observations of it. Of course i accept your view as a very logical and rational view that is limited in its ability to experience directly without questioning, judging and analysis.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4044688 -

egghead1 said:
I prefer to expereince the universe nakedly first hand rather than make rational observations of it. Of course i accept your view as a very logical and rational view that is limited in its ability to experience directly without questioning, judging and analysis.


what do you mean by 'nakedly first hand'?

my ability to experience things is no different than yours, unless you are of a different species to me. i do not judge what i observe, i see it for what it is, and make inferences based upon it.

at the end of the day, i have a theory that works. you do not.

to say that you don't make rational observations is to admit that you are stupid (stupid = incapable of thinking rationally).


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044699 -

Im just pushing your buttons, no need to get excited. :lol:

I can think rationally, but most of the time i try to observe my thoughts without entering into judgements or infering meaning. Once the corse level of thoughts have subsided the the subtle level of thought processes become more clear, then once that subtle restless activity of the mind has been allowed to cease the universe is expereinced nakedly and directly without the obscurations of mental restelessness of rational and irrational thought processes. Thats not a theory, thats practice.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044710 -

I posted this in another thread concerning astrology...is a pitty if you might miss this...

Autobiography of a Yogi
by Paramahansa Yogananda

Quote:
"Mukunda, why don't you get an astrological armlet?"

"Should I, Master? I don't believe in astrology."

"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief.

"Charlatans have brought the stellar science to its present state of disrepute. Astrology is too vast, both mathematically and philosophically, to be rightly grasped except by men of profound understanding. If ignoramuses misread the heavens, and see there a scrawl instead of a script, that is to be expected in this imperfect world. One should not dismiss the wisdom with the 'wise.'



Swami said:
You tell me what SPECIFICALLY that astrology can predict about your life.

Note: Astrologically proponents can amazingly match up a reading with their sign about 8.5% of the time.


In the autobiography says also....

Quote:
"The message boldly blazoned across the heavens at the moment of birth is not meant to emphasize fate?the result of past good and evil?but to arouse man's will to escape from his universal thralldom. What he has done, he can undo. None other than himself was the instigator of the causes of whatever effects are now prevalent in his life. He can overcome any limitation, because he created it by his own actions in the first place, and because he has spiritual resources which are not subject to planetary pressure.

"Superstitious awe of astrology makes one an automaton, slavishly dependent on mechanical guidance. The wise man defeats his planets?which is to say, his past?by transferring his allegiance from the creation to the Creator. The more he realizes his unity with Spirit, the less he can be dominated by matter. The soul is ever-free; it is deathless because birthless. It cannot be regimented by stars.




--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4044722 -

alsey said:
pheonix, you're still avoiding the real issue. there is no way celestial bodies can influence our personality.

My whole point that I'm trying to express is that perhaps, indeed, they don't. Perhaps they merely represent the changing of the seasons and, in so doing, symbolize seasonal influences through ancient mythology.

Delusion_of_Self, very good point. It's true, we can overcome our symbols so that a weakness they describe may no longer be present in our characters. Yes, we chose how and where we'd be born before we were. I'm just starting to understand why I chose the parents I did...

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4044735 -

egghead1 said:
I can think rationally, but most of the time i try to observe my thoughts without entering into judgements or infering meaning. Once the corse level of thoughts have subsided the the subtle level of thought processes become more clear, then once that subtle restless activity of the mind has been allowed to cease the universe is expereinced nakedly and directly without the obscurations of mental restelessness of rational and irrational thought processes. Thats not a theory, thats practice.


right, i know what you mean. i've been meditating for years now and i understand that fully. however, rational thought does not require judgement or inference of meaning. 'meaning' has nothing to do with science. science is a description of the universe. it just describes things the way they are. it tells us how, but not why. the 'why' is something we must decide for ourselves inside. that is why 'meaning' is a subjective thing that different people will reach different conclusions about. science, however, is objective and is independent of our own beliefs. for example, a computer can perform the scientific method: you can feed it data (observations) and it will make inferences through the use of logic. but a computer cannot formulate its own beliefs, and it cannot give meanings or explain 'why'.

the fact remains that the laws of physics explain the workings of the universe well and make accurate predictions, while astrology does not.

astrology is simply a bad theory (at least in its current state), because IT DOESN'T WORK.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4044738 -

the_phoenix said:
alsey said:
pheonix, you're still avoiding the real issue. there is no way celestial bodies can influence our personality.

My whole point that I'm trying to express is that perhaps, indeed, they don't. Perhaps they merely represent the changing of the seasons and, in so doing, symbolize seasonal influences through ancient mythology.



right, i think i understand you better now.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044740 -

You mean that astarology didnt work for 'YOU'! Not that it does'nt work out right, its just your subjective experience. There are many different forms of astrology, you cant make a statement for everyone becuase we each have our own individual experience.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4044754 -

yes, but one instance in which the theory does not work invalidates the thoery.

if i threw a ball in the air and it started hovering instead of falling to the ground, the theory of gravity would be invalidated. even if everyone else threw balls in the air and their balls fell to the ground, the theory would still be invalidated because it doesn't work in every case.

the laws of physics work in every case thus far observed. when a law is seen to be broken, the law is abandoned and scientists try to find a new law that works.

this is the difference between scientists and astrologers. scientists accept their mistakes and continue to modify their theories to fit what they observe. astrologers ignorantly cling to their incorrect theories despite countless instances in which their theories do not work.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4044832 -

Take for instance QI energy. Physics cannot explain it yet its the cornerstone of many religions on this planet and well as martial arts. Now if one person doesn't experience it, are we to throw it out? Same thing as the mind, physics cant explain it, so are we to conclude that it doesn't exist? There are many things that science will never be able to fathom simply because its based on material existence.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045060 -

not quite. There are unexplainable occurances in reality; does that invalidate reality, until something explains the occurance?

Astrology, at least some of it, is direct abstraction from reality. It shows no logical mechanism because it is based on observation and not logic. Note that I completely separate these two. Astrology is irrational to a degree, but that is reflective of reality itself.

As this is a case, it is impossible to apply a systematic approach toward interpretting astrology. It must be applied subjectively, but at the same time it is based off of objectivity.



That said, what have you looked at in astrology? Have you looked at mayan astrology? Tell me what you think of this:
http://www.icandosomething.com/mayancalendar
http://www.astrodreamadvisor.com/free_mayan_readings.html

the first one is concise and provides you with your sign. The second one expands on your sign ( yours is ONLY the first and last section on the html page.. the rest are others in immediate relation to you )


In my experience, yellows and whites most often fail to see validity in the results. Based on your scientific position, i would guess that you are either red or yellow. Based on the above and what you are arguing, i guess yellow ( very broad still ). Note that this is purely my guess and is just me trying to practice figuring this stuff out :p ( i see at least one very very large problem in my doing so, however )


Anyway, what do you see?

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
    #4045079 -

egghead1 said:
Take for instance QI energy. Physics cannot explain it yet its the cornerstone of many religions on this planet and well as martial arts. Now if one person doesn't experience it, are we to throw it out? Same thing as the mind, physics cant explain it, so are we to conclude that it doesn't exist?


this is a different matter. qi is a phenomenon, not a theory.

you are correct: just because science cannot explain something, it doesn't mean that it is untrue, it just means that thus far we have been unable to explain it rationally. but the fact that science cannot yet explain a particular phenomenon does not invalidate the rest of science!

i was talking about theories, not phenomena. a good theory matches observations and makes accurate predictions about the future. astrology is a bad theory because it fails in both of those things.

Quote:
There are many things that science will never be able to fathom simply because its based on material existence.


incorrect. the scientific method has the potential to describe any phenomena. the limitations are in our own intellectual capacity. because we are limited as humans, and do not know everything, some of us resort to the supernatural to explain what we do not understand. humans have done this for thousands of years, but it is not a logical thing to do. belief in the supernatural arises because people cannot accept that some things are unknown.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045097 -

astrology isn't a theory.

Scientific method is a system and its flaw is basically that it is incredibly slow. The Universe is practically infinite.


Consider them as data systems: you need something to interpret data, and you need data. With logic based systems, the interpretting mechanism works well, but adding data and sorting it makes it very impractical. With observation based abstraction, you have the data at your fingertips, but intepretting it is both tricky and a skill.

In short, science is too slow and astrology is not systematic and thus has no objectively verifiable accuracy.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045203 -

Morrowind said:
not quite. There are unexplainable occurances in reality; does that invalidate reality, until something explains the occurance?


again, this is a different matter. i was talking about theories, and you have now changed the subject to phenomena.

theories attempt to describe phenomena (i.e. occurances). if a theory accurately describes the phenomena it was intended to describe, then it is a good theory.

unexplainable phenomena simply mean that no one has formulated a theory to describe them yet.

Quote:
Astrology, at least some of it, is direct abstraction from reality. It shows no logical mechanism because it is based on observation and not logic. Note that I completely separate these two. Astrology is irrational to a degree, but that is reflective of reality itself.


exactly. the theory has its origins in observation, but the reasoning used to get from the observations to the theory is illogical.

in case it hasn't sunk in yet, let me reiterate why astrology is a bad theory:
-there is no fully explainable mechanism as to how it works.
-it does not match observations.
-it does not make accurate predictions about the future.

the 2nd and 3rd points there are general statements. yes, there are a few cases in which astrology makes accurate predictions, but as i said before, the cases in which it doesn't work invalidate the theory.

Quote:
As this is a case, it is impossible to apply a systematic approach toward interpretting astrology. It must be applied subjectively, but at the same time it is based off of objectivity.


please explain what you mean by 'applied subjectively'.

Quote:
That said, what have you looked at in astrology? Have you looked at mayan astrology? Tell me what you think of this:
http://www.icandosomething.com/mayancalendar
http://www.astrodreamadvisor.com/free_mayan_readings.html

the first one is concise and provides you with your sign. The second one expands on your sign ( yours is ONLY the first and last section on the html page.. the rest are others in immediate relation to you )


wow, lots of undefined terms conjugated by philosophical-sounding language. does it explain anything, does it make accurate predictions? no.

Quote:
In my experience, yellows and whites most often fail to see validity in the results. Based on your scientific position, i would guess that you are either red or yellow. Based on the above and what you are arguing, i guess yellow ( very broad still ). Note that this is purely my guess and is just me trying to practice figuring this stuff out :p ( i see at least one very very large problem in my doing so, however )


yes, i got yellow. what has my name got to do with it anyway? i noticed that whatever name i put in, i get the same result.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (04/12/05 10:59 AM)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045234 -

Morrowind said:
astrology isn't a theory.


ok, but there is a theory behind it, which is roughly along the lines of celestial bodies influencing our behaviour. science isn't a theory either, but there are scientific theories.

Quote:
Scientific method is a system and its flaw is basically that it is incredibly slow. The Universe is practically infinite.


a system that gives correct results slowly is better than one that gives incorrect results quickly, IMO.

Quote:
Consider them as data systems: you need something to interpret data, and you need data. With logic based systems, the interpretting mechanism works well, but adding data and sorting it makes it very impractical. With observation based abstraction, you have the data at your fingertips, but intepretting it is both tricky and a skill.


we're getting into opinions now. IMO, tricky interpretation is impractical.

Quote:
In short, science is too slow and astrology is not systematic and thus has no objectively verifiable accuracy.


if it has no verifiable accuracy, then why the hell should anyone believe it or use it? especially when there is an alternative method that does have verifiable accuracy.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045266 -

hmmm

yellow what btw? From your retort I am going to guess Yellow human. But thats trickier, and if so I don't know why you would be here. Eh i guess at this point i need a lot more experience, because tone has a lot more influence.


Quote:
wow, lots of undefined terms conjugated by philosophical-sounding language. does it explain anything, does it make accurate predictions? no.


But don't you see, if you understand the irrationality behind that language, you can grasp the meaning of what it initially observed.


Again, as a systematic method towards deducing a conclusion, astrology is utter crap. But as a tool, it is incredibly powerful in understanding humanity and its relation to the Universe. Can everyone use a boomerang to hunt? No. I've tried and I have no clue how, but some people are incredibly skilled at it. Astrology is a skill which not everyone can use. Science is a systematic method which anyone can use. It's more democratic I suppose.


So, you're right. Astrology as a theory is baseless. Astrology as a method is useful in the right hands though. If I had to strip it down to make it clearer - consider astrology as only a couple of level-of-abstraction steps from reality. Science would be a healthy run away from reality because it is deduced to the bare essentials of reasoning. If you want to use astrology, you need to experiment with it and form a mental web of interpretation - astrology is a steppnig stone. If you want to use science, just use it as-is.

Quote:
please explain what you mean by 'applied subjectively'.


The same way that art is applied subjectively. Astrology is limp without guidance.



Quote:
yes, i got yellow. what has my name got to do with it anyway? i noticed that whatever name i put in, i get the same result.


It has nothing to do with it. Inputting your name just makes the top of the page display your name for convenience. Why? Damned if I know.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045303 -

Quote:
ok, but there is a theory behind it, which is roughly along the lines of celestial bodies influencing our behaviour. science isn't a theory either, but there are scientific theories.

Hmmmmmm.

I don't think so. The progressions follow some form of mathematics, but they do not always offer an explanation. From what I understand, the Mayans claim that aliens gave them the system. Very ambiguous statement, but it destroys all credibility of there being logical theory behind it. Logical systems are pure. Observation is not pure.


Quote:
a system that gives correct results slowly is better than one that gives incorrect results quickly, IMO.


Here is the crux of the problem! in your opinion



Quote:
if it has no verifiable accuracy, then why the hell should anyone believe it or use it? especially when there is an alternative method that does have verifiable accuracy.



Because not everyone is the same! Ultimately, astrology and logic are but two flavors of exploration. Why doesn't EVERYONE become a scientist ? I assure you, it is not because they are not interested in the truth and the Universe. All sections of humanity are constantly inspiring each other - art can provoke science, and vice versa.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045361 -

Morrowind said:
yellow what btw? From your retort I am going to guess Yellow human. But thats trickier, and if so I don't know why you would be here. Eh i guess at this point i need a lot more experience, because tone has a lot more influence.


i got yellow planetary seed.


Quote:
But don't you see, if you understand the irrationality behind that language, you can grasp the meaning of what it initially observed.


i'm sorry, but i can't understand irrationality by definition.

Quote:
Again, as a systematic method towards deducing a conclusion, astrology is utter crap. But as a tool, it is incredibly powerful in understanding humanity and its relation to the Universe. Can everyone use a boomerang to hunt? No. I've tried and I have no clue how, but some people are incredibly skilled at it. Astrology is a skill which not everyone can use. Science is a systematic method which anyone can use. It's more democratic I suppose.


false analogy. someone who can't use a boomerang can still learn the mechanism behind how a boomerang works. nobody can understand the mechanism behind how astrology works because there isn't one.

you can't go down the line of 'some people have secret powers which you'll never understand', because that would just result in a 'no they don't - yes they do' argument. to convince someone else that astrology works, you need to provide evidence.

Quote:
So, you're right. Astrology as a theory is baseless. Astrology as a method is useful in the right hands though.


i'm afraid that i won't believe it until i see evidence for it working consistently. i am very empirical, as you've probably noticed :smile: until i see astrology make accurate predictions, i have no reason to believe it.

Quote:
If I had to strip it down to make it clearer - consider astrology as only a couple of level-of-abstraction steps from reality. Science would be a healthy run away from reality because it is deduced to the bare essentials of reasoning. If you want to use astrology, you need to experiment with it and form a mental web of interpretation - astrology is a steppnig stone. If you want to use science, just use it as-is.


you're going to have to define a few terms for me here:
-level-of-abstraction step
-mental web of interpretation
-stepping stone

Quote:
The same way that art is applied subjectively. Astrology is limp without guidance.


but art is simply expression of thought. i don't see the anology.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045376 -

Morrowind said:
I don't think so. The progressions follow some form of mathematics, but they do not always offer an explanation. From what I understand, the Mayans claim that aliens gave them the system. Very ambiguous statement, but it destroys all credibility of there being logical theory behind it. Logical systems are pure. Observation is not pure.


bringing aliens into it just makes it an ad vericundiam fallacy. just because the aliens gave it to them, doesn't mean its correct.

Quote:
Quote:
a system that gives correct results slowly is better than one that gives incorrect results quickly, IMO.


Here is the crux of the problem! in your opinion


my opinion is its more important to obtain correct results rather than incorrect results, no matter how long it takes. if you prefer to use a fast method that gives incorrect results, then yes this is indeed the crux of the problem and its just a difference of opinions. debate over, i guess.

Quote:
Quote:
if it has no verifiable accuracy, then why the hell should anyone believe it or use it? especially when there is an alternative method that does have verifiable accuracy.


Because not everyone is the same! Ultimately, astrology and logic are but two flavors of exploration. Why doesn't EVERYONE become a scientist ? I assure you, it is not because they are not interested in the truth and the Universe. All sections of humanity are constantly inspiring each other - art can provoke science, and vice versa.


i guess this is the same as the point above. people who value correct results choose science, people who value other things choose other things.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045420 -

eeek
your definition of art is very limited

art is not expression of thought- it is expression of anything, essentially. Im strapped on time so ill keep this post short.

first, i have nearly 0 experience with yellow seeds, so this was a useful learning experience.

It's not a false analogy because astrology could, theoretically be explained empirically. Not in our lifetimes- at the point that most of the Universe is figured out, I guarrantee that astrology will exist, but will not be called astrology and will be called some part of science, and it will not be approached the same way at ALL.



-level-of-abstraction step
Oi, do you have experience with programming? No wait Ill explain it in terms of hardware. The most developed form of looking at a hardware system is at the physical level- how each gate and circuit acts in terms of electrical signal. This level is, as an analogy, science. The next level would give purpose to the chips - ie input a + 2= output b. The next level would combine a number of input + output to do something much more complicated, and etc etc. Consider astrology a complicated program running on a computer. Figuring it out in terms of circuits would take AGES, but it's possible.

-mental web of interpretation
IE, YOU have to create the logic in the system. This is the hard part which makes astrology fallible- it is fallible just as much as humans are fallible

-stepping stone
um
the difference between one level abstraction to another; ie hardware circuit vs abstract use of circuits for an output

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045424 -

Quote:
i guess this is the same as the point above. people who value correct results choose science, people who value other things choose other things.



Heheheh

you'd be amazed what people are capable of sometimes.

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: vampirism]
    #4045557 -

Morrowind said:
It's not a false analogy because astrology could, theoretically be explained empirically.


true, but until such an explanation arises, i have no reason to believe it.

lets develop the analogy, from my perspective at least. say i'd never heard or seen of boomerangs before. someone tells me about boomerangs, that you can throw them and they come back to you, but offers no aerodynamic explanation as to how they work. i wouldn't believe it because a) i've never seen a boomerang work, and b) i don't have a mechanism as to how one might work. this is how i see astrology; i've seen no evidence for it working, and no mechanism as to how it might work, so i don't believe it. i'm not saying that astrology is impossible (i said this pretty much explicitly a few pages back), but i have no reason to believe it. anything is possible, i'm open to that, but i don't believe anything until i have a logical reason to.

Quote:
-level-of-abstraction step
Oi, do you have experience with programming? No wait Ill explain it in terms of hardware. The most developed form of looking at a hardware system is at the physical level- how each gate and circuit acts in terms of electrical signal. This level is, as an analogy, science. The next level would give purpose to the chips - ie input a + 2= output b. The next level would combine a number of input + output to do something much more complicated, and etc etc. Consider astrology a complicated program running on a computer. Figuring it out in terms of circuits would take AGES, but it's possible.

-mental web of interpretation
IE, YOU have to create the logic in the system. This is the hard part which makes astrology fallible- it is fallible just as much as humans are fallible

-stepping stone
um
the difference between one level abstraction to another; ie hardware circuit vs abstract use of circuits for an output


i think i'm beginning to see what you're getting at. i must say, i've learnt more from you about the philosophy of astrology than anyone else. but my problems with it remain: i've seen no evidence for it, there is no mechanism for it. for me to believe astrology would take a leap of blind faith, and blind faith isn't something that's present in my personality.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4045628 -

Why don't you like blind faith? :smirk:

Additionally certain celestial phenomena is associated with an increase in certain human, as well as animal actions... but the correlations are evident.

As far as the sun interacting with life, it affects everything on a different level in terms of it being a form of sustenance for most forms of life.

http://gfisher.org/chapter_8.htm (A nice history lesson)

*U32.  Astrologers, on the other hand, seldom pay attention to forces of gravity or curvature of space in making their predictions.  A common complaint of present-day astronomers, physicists, cosmologists and the like is that astrologers can demonstrate no power of celestial objects and their processes which can account for what the astrologers claim are their influences on terrestrial creatures and their affairs.  It is maintained by most physical scientists of today that gravitation, electromagnetic effects, nuclear forces, and the like, exerted by celestial objects (presumably other than our earth) have never been demonstrated to have the kind of influences on terrestrial affairs that present-day astrologers maintain they have.  Astrologers often reply to this by observing that such influences by powers whose existence is accepted by physical scientists haven't been shown not to exist, or by observing that there may be or are powers not known to or not accepted by physical scientists which do have influences on terrestrial affairs of the sort they deal with.  Arguments and disagreements of this sort have gone on since antiquity, and it doesn't look like they will be settled soon, or indeed ever.  A thesis of the present work has been that in past times, what we now call astronomy and astrology were more interwoven than they customarily are today, although they still share some basic assumptions, e.g. about predicting future positions of celestial objects and the like.  One consequence of this thesis, if it be accepted, is that what has happened in the development of astral prediction over time is a kind of specialization in connection with astral prediction, an effect which has been dominant in connection with all kinds of human affairs.  Another consequence is that one may expect to see a kind of punctuated evolution in connection with astral prediction, rather than some kind of revolution in such matters.  This has bearing on a familiar theme in history and philosophy of science, that of so-called scientific revolutions, and especially alleged "incommensurability" between theories and interpretations accepted in different eras, to use the term made popular by Thomas Kuhn.  If by "incommensurability", one means existence of basic differences of the sort common to present-day astronomers and astrologers, one can empirically verify that such incommensurability exists.  If by "incommensurability", one means that the nature of what is true about our universe between what present-day astronomers and astrologers hold can't be decided, one can empirically verify that it hasn't yet been decided.  But, as I said near the beginning of this work, I won't be concerned here with matters of truth and falsity of what astronomers and astrologers say.  I have reviewed here something about the relationship of past and present astronomy and astrology, and their practitioners and customers, in order to make a setting for the next chapter in the book by Alan Scott, Origen and the Life of the Stars (1991) which I have been considering, and I will now return to it, and in particular to Chapter 6, "The Heavenly Powers".*


http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html (on the moon and what affects it is thought to have, with a bunch of skepticism)


http://www.uwyo.edu/wjm/repro/mating.htm (hormonal/chemical effects on the basis of day length)


http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/C/Circadian.html (Circadian Rythm)

Indeed celestial bodies do influence behavior, without a doubt... but as to what they influence personality-wise.... :shrug:



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/12/05 12:36 PM)

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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
    #4046962 -

hum. I guess we have different definitions of what works. Lets say you saw someone throw the boomerang- would you believe it works, or would you think its a hoax / trick ( still assuming that you need to know the mechanism to believe in it)?

Anyway, I do see your point. It's ultimately something I obviously disagree with, but I do see how what I'm saying could be a bit of a leap of blind faith. My personality is basically that of pure intuition, but it works for me. I've found that some people get angry at me for it, but that's because they essentially expect me to be able to explain how to understand irrationality to them.

Anyway, chaos vs order-- choose up and fight for your side ( I guess ...)



also, for
Quote:
would take a leap of blind faith


is all faith blind? When you are approaching things empirically, you are still making jumps of faith, but they are infitesimally small. Kind of like the theoretical basis for taking the integral of a curve in calculus. Those tiny amounts can really add up.

Large jumps can be risky, but they can describe some phenomena much faster, and with equal accuracy. Like an area under a curve which perfectly fits a geometric figure. Large jumps are not very comprehensive in terms of describing some things, but they give you a ton of speed so that you can tackle a million things in a fraction of the time it would take to perfectly plot out things. For example, theoretical models are all more intuitive than anything else- they concisely explain some concept, though they are very often inaccurate.


Intuitive people and empirical people need each other. Without the former, I think that there wouldn't be much variety because of the precision required. Without the latter, nothing would make any sense at all because there would be so damn much of it, and all of it inarticulate.

Anyway, I hope this made some sense.

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