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astrology
    #4118046 -

do u really believe astrology ? or you have more power than astrologic vibrations...

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Re: astrology [Re: zeppa]
    #4118062 -

Did you know that due to a property of the Earth's rotation called precession, everyone who thinks they were born under a given sign was actually born one sign later? If you think you're a Sagittarius, you're actually a Capricorn.

The signs were in-step way back when this stuff was made up, but it's all wrong today because of this shift in the ecliptic.

Astrologers neglect to mention this because it would mess up their $ystem. :shake:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: astrology [Re: zeppa]
    #4118615 -

I believe in astrology I think, not 100% but the description of what I'm sposed to be fits me real close. I don't know what your second question about vibration is asking.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4118725 -


now for the bealevers out there if a prospective mate was to have the direct opposite of my chart same thing but on the other side would that mean she would be complimentary in the way that she be my other half?

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Re: astrology [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #4118759 -

I'm not an expert but I think she would be complementary but also conflicting is many ways. The 1st sign is not the opposite or the complement of the 7th sign, nor is the 2nd sign the opposite or complement of the 8th sign....though the 1st sign is different from the 7th sign, just as it has a special relationship to the other 11 signs. You would have to really investigate each aspect individually, I think the website you got that chart from has a function to automatically evaluate the compatibility of two people.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: zeppa]
    #4118900 -

We talking about modern astrology? Like the one based on 12 signs that everyone loves?

What about the older version with 13 signs, and the suggestion that their should be far more signs as a result of new info... either way, believe it or not, true or false, it has plenty of room to grow, its regressed a lot.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4118951 -

I believe in astrology I think, not 100% but the description of what I'm sposed to be fits me real close.

Even though you're not what you think you are, but actually one sign over...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4118960 -

:yesnod:

Sometimes more then one sign if you bring the old 13 sign system into play.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4118970 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
:yesnod:

Sometimes more then one sign if you bring the old 13 sign system into play.


no that's just something you made up, noone has ever heard of that


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4118978 -

Diploid said:
I believe in astrology I think, not 100% but the description of what I'm sposed to be fits me real close.

Even though you're not what you think you are, but actually one sign over...


i am what i am. you are what you are. don't be stupid.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4118983 -

:lol: Do a search.... take the earth's precession and the original 13 sign system that was later changed to coincide with seasonal changes to 12 signs.... please, look it up.

I'll get you some links if you want.

12 sign I'm a Gemini.
13 sign I'm a Taurus

Account for the Earth's precession in the system, calculate the difference, and your system is even more fucked then it already was.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4118984 -

... I suggest you give what he's saying a bit more credibility :smile:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4119021 -

my system is awesome: aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, sagitarius, scorpio, cannibal, pisces, two others i forget.  end of debate.  you are stupid.  the end.
:goodluck:


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4119079 -

no that's just something you made up

I don't make things up. Go to a book store and pick up a copy of any astronomical almanac for any recent year. Look at the position of the sun on the ecliptic on your birthday. This is what determines your sign. See what constellation the sun is in on that date. It will be offset by approximately one constellation.

noone has ever heard of that

Of course not. The True Believer will continue to believe no matter what evidence to the contrary they're shown.

Don't take my word for it. Look it up for yourself. The Truth is there for you to find if you really want to find it.

you are stupid. the end

Ah yes, the old reliable ad hominem attack comes back again whenever the True Believer is cornered with logic, common sense, and irrefutable evidence that he could go look up for himself in an almanac.:shake:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (05/01/05 03:04 PM)

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4119336 -

ok fine you're right astrology is for saps.
you know what the only trouble with that theory is?

I know someone really smart who is an astrologer/lightworker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ooo: :ooo: :ooo: :ooo: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4119350 -

:handth: Great way to prove the legitimacy of a bunk science!

I know many people that are incredibly stupid that believe in Astrology as well.... does that mean anything? :smirk: :nonono:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4119362 -

takes one to know one!


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4119368 -

:confused: What are you on? :smile:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4119395 -

homemade junglejuice!


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: zeppa]
    #4119415 -

It seems impossible that the stars do not affect our lives, in terms of the way they affect the planet and the galaxy. Everything is united in this universe, and everything affects one another. Those billions of stars around us definitely impact this planet.

But astrology is bullshit. It says that a few visible stars affect our personalities by being in certain positions, but those stars we base astrology on are only a tiny fraction of the billions of those we cannot see, not to mention the creation of how those stars affect our personalities seem arbitrary. It's possible the stars can affect our personalities in some way, but there's too many variables to even measure it, and too many stars we do not know of to calculate it. Does the gravity of billions of stars affect this planet in any way? Does it affect our bodies in any way? It makes the galaxy a galaxy for certain, but it's impossible even now to know if such a thing as the stars affecting our personality exists, and is foolish to rely on ancient methods that had only simple observational science to come to a conclusion about such a complex subject.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4119443 -

:lol:

Stars and the moon do affect our lives, via circadian rythms, hormonal reactions etc... anything else is just speculation though.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4119484 -

The moon - yes; the stars - no.

Me reaching for my beer has more gravitational affect on you than the nearest star (disregrading our sun).


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: astrology [Re: Swami]
    #4119492 -

That's true, but take hundreds of billions of stars, planets, a few supermassive black holes, and all those tiny gravitional affects may add up to be a slightly less insignificant gravitional affect.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: astrology [Re: Ravus]
    #4119505 -

Moosehead vs. The Galaxy; who would win?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: astrology [Re: Swami]
    #4119507 -

*The sun*


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: astrology [Re: Swami]
    #4119511 -

Get a 12 pack and find out :smile:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: astrology [Re: Ravus]
    #4119559 -

Your intuition that there's no reasonable scientific explanation as to how the other planets in the solar system could possibly control the personalities of human beings born on Earth is correct of course. There's no way anyone could make any sort of reasonable argument for the mechanism for astrology based on conventional physics.

If you're really interested to know the mechanism for how astrology works I'll tell you but you have to ask nice.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4119565 -

Supposedly electromagnetic induction, some degrees of it have been shown by Russian scientists in 1994 (I think)... but nothing conclusive.

Or are you suggesting something else?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4119611 -

Actually the closest that science comes to explaining things such as astrology or reading form coffe cups or beans is not in such an external connection like suggested here but in theory of chaos which suggests that all complex systems might have a hidden pattern, and if such a pattern were to be discovered, you could predict stock market dynamics and movement of bacteria with the same formula.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4119617 -

electromagnetism is conventional science.
it's something much much simpler.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: question_for_joo]
    #4119619 -

Why don't you enlighten us all on how astrology can work without the help of conventional physics?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: astrology [Re: Ravus]
    #4119622 -

I did not feel any love in that. I felt like I was being ordered by the drill seargent from Full Metal Jacket.


--------------------
youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs

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Re: astrology [Re: Ravus]
    #4119624 -

Of course it is something much simpler, it's conformity to a belief. Astrology is a system structured enough as to produce mindless followers who will believe it to their death, and so their horoscopes may become self-fulfilling prophecies and their signs contain self-fulfilling traits.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: astrology [Re: Swami]
    #4120361 -

Me reaching for my beer has more gravitational affect on you than the nearest star

This is only true if you don't drink lite beer.  :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4128447 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
:lol: Do a search.... take the earth's precession and the original 13 sign system that was later changed to coincide with seasonal changes to 12 signs.... please, look it up.
.
I'll get you some links if you want.
.
12 sign I'm a Gemini.
13 sign I'm a Taurus
.
Account for the Earth's precession in the system, calculate the difference, and your system is even more fucked then it already was.


.
Maybe we all have two signs.....!?    :shocked:  :shrug:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: astrology [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4133098 -

:shocked:! Maybe we're all signs?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4136343 -

I've studied astrology a while.. I can't say its perfect but its proven right more often then not.  Whenever everyone gets snappy and people start having problems with cars and work if I check I see that mercury is in retrograde.  People that are "water signs" seem to usually be more emotional, even if they don't perfectly match their descriptions.  All I can say is this:

1) Most people that say astrology is bs have only read the stuff they sell at gas stations and grocery stores.  If you won't be bothered to read up on the subject at least try astro.com for free for a *slightly* better reading - you won't get a good one without a professional astrologer doing it personally since there is a lot to mix together.  Just because you have a particular brand of coffee you like doesn't mean it will taste anything like someone else who drinks the same brand - there are a lot more ingredients and environmental effects that are added and mixed which change the flavor, and the same goes with astrology - being an Aries means nothing if you don't know the rest of the ingredients.

2) I don't know how the physics of it would work, but I also don't know how the physics of energy-work happen yet I can do it - probably because no one has proven to me that I can not.  The person who claims science as it is is perfect has never studied the history (or present) of science.

3) Yes the stars have changed from the days the astrological calendar was set up.  If you look up what the signs mean now versus then you will also note that perceptions have changed as well.  Just because they kept the names does not mean that old astrology books are considered holy documents by most astrologers.

4) If you can't live without some theories, try these on for size.  Perhaps the reason astrology works more often then not is because we all share a universal conciousness. Perhaps enough people in it happen to believe in astrology that it affects even those who do not but who are still connected the human race.  Perhaps the constelations are nothing more then guidelines that people used to mark time, but the real effect came from other sources such as shifts in the earth's magnetic field, the position of planets, or who knows what, that happen to roughly coincide with the constelations.  So even if the constelations are off perhaps enough the real causes have remained to have an effect.  Who knows, be imaginative, people who were out to prove something is impossible only succeeded if they worked with math - otherwise the most anyone has ever proven is that the reason behind something has not been discovered yet.  (Just look at quantum physics - how many "impossible things" has that branch of science disproven since it began?)

5) The most useful thing I've gotten out of astrology hasn't had anything to do with planets.  By studying astrology you learn a lot about certain personality archetypes that exist and their properties.  When I meet someone I have a good chance to discern their archetype (without having to figure out their sign) and avoid hitting the wrong buttons.  Most of the time it works great and I can't remember the last time I had a person be angry with me if I didn't want them to be angry. (current readers perhaps not counting :wink:)  I am not always right mind you, but I've never been critically wrong.

As far as I am concerned any study that has survived a few centuries has something worth learning, even if that 'something' is not always what is being advertised on the poster.  But that's just my take on it, use it as you will. :smile:

Edited by Nocforweb (05/05/05 04:36 AM)

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4136371 -

Yes the stars have changed from the days the astrological calendar was set up. If you look up what the signs mean now versus then you will also note that perceptions have changed as well. Just because they kept the names does not mean that old astrology books are considered holy documents by most astrologers.

Please provide a link to evidence that ancient astrological interpretation of the signs is shifted by one sign from what it is today.

Perhaps the reason astrology works more often then not

Please provide a link to a controlled study showing evidence that astrology works at all, let alone more often than not. If this stuff works as well as you claim, such a study should be a cakewalkt to set up.

If you can't live without some theories...
Perhaps enough people in it happen to...
Perhaps the constelations are...

Invented explanations that have nothing to do with the available observations are not theories.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (05/05/05 05:19 AM)

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4136821 -

can you explain the earth's precession and how it explains (or rather debunks) astrology? I do not quite understand. thanks.

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Re: astrology [Re: Vvellum]
    #4137309 -

Sure, check it out:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4137306/an/0/page/0


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: astrology [Re: zeppa]
    #4140146 -

I did not say the signs shifted, I said that the interpretation of the signs had altered over time.  Just like beliefs about psychology and medicine have changed with the times so has astrology - such the incorporation of new planets, emphasis and de-emphasis on particular stars, and branching schools of thought on how everything works, should be read, or what constelations to take into account.  There are in fact astrologers who adjust their readings based on changes in constelations over the years, and others who believe that the stars were simply markers of time.  That's just in western astrology too, not counting eastern and native american.  (though I have not studied those too much).

I said "works more often then not", not "this is a theory that has been proven and is now in your science book".  I also did not claim that this is a miracle cure to all our questions on life, the universe, and everything - merely that its something that seems to work.  (Active word being 'seems', as in to me and several million other people, all of whom could be right or wrong depending on when you open the box)  If there had been a controlled study done without bias proving things either way then there would no longer be a cause for debate.  I could point out to my own life experiences, but that would not be a controlled study because neither am I a scientist (in this particular context), nor do I think that I could get a grant involving astrology so that I would have an incentive to try to prove it.   

The online Merriam-Webster dictionary defines "theory" as: "a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption" (definition 6a).  Therefore those 'theories' are perfectly acceptable.  I might add that virtually every discovery of our species came when people looked at something, tried to imagine how or why it might work, and then looked deeper to prove or disprove their imagination and flesh out the details.  Very few ever found something new by starting with 'why this can't work' (except for proving algorithms of course)

Please keep in mind that I posted just to give an alternate view on the subject, not because I particularly care to convert anyone - I am don't do astrology for money and have nothing to sell and no profit to make from people believing me.  Perhaps its BS.  That's what western science has proven about acupuncture, many folk herbal remedies, and the spherical shape of the world, (surprisingly the cures were stubborn and kept working and the world kept spinning) but in this instance they may be right.  I don't know, and I am in the business of using tools available to me when its advantageous, not telling people what to think. If you would prefer to disbelieve it that's your choice, though I can't see an advantage in not keeping an open mind just because the information isn't taught in regular colleges.  *shrug*  In short - don't like, don't use pay attention to it. :smile:

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4140322 -

I rather enjoyed hearing about these kinda~ gifts.....    :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4140764 -

There are in fact astrologers who adjust their readings based on changes in constelations over the years

Please show me an astrological chart that shows, for example, Aquarius in March. This is required of any astrologers who "adjust their readings" as you say.

I said "works more often then not",

According to these studies:

http://www.skepsis.no/english/subject/astrology/studies.html

it doesn't work at all. :shrug:

Please cite a study where it "works more often than not".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4140783 -

According to generalized studies with no proofs, and bunk protocals that aren't utilized by the scientific method....

Find a report with some 1,000 folks that are picked out of the blue and have their personalities correlated with their sign, as well as various other degrees such as their ascendant, their moon, etc... pertaining to their natal chart. If nothing short of that is achieved (we can reduce that number down to 10, or even 1 if you want) with 100% certainty by a group of say 20 astrologers with no former knowledge of the sample.... I don't see the point in suggesting that.

As far as something being credible because of its past.... in the past astrology was based on a 13 sign system, so taking the modern account into question (more often then not your "studies will be utilizing this form)... well, their is much to be desired.

We can also talk about the flat earthers and their beliefs of the world being flat, as the thought is old and still in existance; various other organizations exist based on this even though... theirs absolutely no merit to the belief whatsoever;

http://id-www.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUSSELL/FlatEarth.html
http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/flat_earth.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html

A general astrological forecast; click on the animal associated with your sign for optimal results.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/horrorscope.htm


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4144609 -

*sigh* i don't quite know why i'm answering, though its likely something to do with not wanting to get to work.  oh well, i've heard of worst reasons to post.

I had already looked over those studies, thank you for the link - they were most interesting.  it was equally interesting to note that most of those studies either didn't mention what they studied or specifically referred to sun signs (which i'd mentioned are about as acurate as the horoscopes you get at the gas station)  out of the remaining ones as near as i can tell all had fairly small sample groups, not enough that a tabloid would consider them worthy of predicting a local election.  skipping that detail, all the ones that had been done by professionals (i'll assume they were for the sake of argument) were then either handed to people to 'identify with' or used to see if the astrologers could predict which people matched them.  Considering that psychology tells us how people have a real persona, a persona that they think they identify with, and then a public persona on top of that, the basis for the 'astrology is bunk' proof seems to be that a bunch of people said they liked to identify or not identify with what they read.  No offense but give me enough time and I can convince someone to identify with a walnut.  Astrology is more useful for helping people heal and grow on an individual basis by suggesting some of the more common maladies based on full workouts of a chart.  Some astrologers use them it for other purposes and you would have to talk with them about their success rates. 

As for studies that work 'more often then not', I repeat what I've said in the last two posts - I am not refering to a particular study, I am refering to personal non-scientific experience.  For myself I use it to get rough overviews of people and together with my other studies I use to sidestep potential problems and find effective ways to communicate what I need to communicate to specific individuals.  Can I hand you a sheet with proof?  No.  Would I?  No, because it really doesn't matter enough to me so long as it works 'more often then not' for me.  If you would like unbiase studies proving things then you might want to be careful visiting psychiatrists, doctors, or your grocery store - the jury is still out on most of them and there is substantial proof that their methods don't work and are potentially harmful.

In the end though, que serra, serra, believe as you would: "see as thou wouldst want to see, be as thou wouldst want to be" - you may be right. :smile:

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Re: astrology [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4144683 -

I love the quotes at the bottom of your message. :smile:  I think your argument is well made - it is a lot to ask for in a proof.  What I was trying to say was not "prove or disprove it conclusively' so much as that there are no certainties.  That's one of the reasons I am not trying to produce proof, I think you are right - there is a chance astrology is bunk, and there is a chance that it works, and like with a lot of things its very difficult to prove things either way.  I just don't understand why people need to work in absolutes rather then odds - "there is a good chance this doesn't work, but who knows". 

For example with the flat earth group.  For the longest time they said the world was flat and burned anyone who said otherwise, even though there was a chance they were wrong.  Now we think the world is round and ridicule anyone who thinks its flat, even though none of us has personally seen our planet from space.  Granted, the physics match up but I have to take the word of the physicists and astronomers, I don't have time to devote myself to those studies just to prove that the world is in fact round (which I already believe).  As such I acknowledge that the world is round but I also acknowledge that there is always a chance that I might be wrong - it doesn't hurt me either way to think this way.  Maybe our world is a disk on the back of four elephants who are riding a giant turtle through space, and everything we've heard is PR and special FX.  Same with astrology.  I happen to believe it works and that its been working for me, but I acknowledge I could be wrong.  So why would anyone care so much to disprove me if it doesn't affect them and there is a chance that it might work? 

Perhaps its a middle ground even - perhaps astrology works but not as it is at the moment.  Medicine jumps into mind again - a lot of the old theories were right but not in their implementation at the time.  People thought that transfusion worked even though in a lot of the cases the person died anyways (odds similar to those of random chance).  Now we know that transfusion works but only if you use the right bloodtype, otherwise the patient will die - we had no tools before to realize this might even be a possibility.  *shrug*

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Re: astrology [Re: Nocforweb]
    #4145151 -

For example with the flat earth group. For the longest time they said the world was flat and burned anyone who said otherwise, even though there was a chance they were wrong.

Scientists never said this after evidence to the contrary was found. In fact, it was much the other way around when Galileo pointed this and other facts out and was threatened with torture by the Inquisition in 1611.

Science changes in the face of new evidence; mysticism remains stagnant. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: astrology [Re: Diploid]
    #4146155 -

You know what, you're completely right.  Science has embraced change with open arms over time as soon as it got proof contradicting its beliefs, "mysticism" and "mystics" have never changed or looked into new ideas, and unless something has been proven by the scientific method it can't work because its only studied by mystical yokals.  :thumbup: *shrug*

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