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 Delusion_of_Self
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 Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology?  [Re: egghead1]
#4044485 - 04/12/05 05:44 AM (19 years, 9 days ago) |
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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
#4044487 - 04/12/05 05:45 AM (19 years, 9 days ago) |
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egghead1 it was not meant to you 
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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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alsey
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
#4044502 - 04/12/05 05:56 AM (19 years, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
egghead1 said:
How do you know?
i don't know for certain, nothing can be known for certain. however, physics would say that celestial bodies cannot influence a person's personality.
the burden of proof is on the astrologers, since they are making the positive claim (that astrology works). if the astrologers propose a valid, working mechanism for celestial bodies affecting human personality, and provide some evidence for that, then i may be inclined to believe them.
however, until they do that, astrology is completely made-up and has no foundation in observable evidence. and, if i aply astrology to myself, it doesn't work.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044530 - 04/12/05 06:11 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
alsey said:
Quote:
egghead1 said:
How do you know?
i don't know for certain, nothing can be known for certain. however, physics would say that celestial bodies cannot influence a person's personality.
the burden of proof is on the astrologers, since they are making the positive claim (that astrology works). if the astrologers propose a valid, working mechanism for celestial bodies affecting human personality, and provide some evidence for that, then i may be inclined to believe them.
however, until they do that, astrology is completely made-up and has no foundation in observable evidence. and, if i aply astrology to myself, it doesn't work.
How can you really understand something without really trying? It is impossible to prove the validity of something while assuming it is not true because this assumption will blinding you in the first place...
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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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egghead1
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044614 - 04/12/05 06:49 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Then you cannot say for certain that celestial bodies do not influence our personalities, its just your personal belief and not a solid fact either way. Who knows what revelations indian sages have had about astralogical influences and their effects. Personal experience is more important than hard proof or evidence, even if it isnt as reliable or substancial.
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
#4044663 - 04/12/05 07:27 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Delusion_of_Self said:
How can you really understand something without really trying? It is impossible to prove the validity of something while assuming it is not true because this assumption will blinding you in the first place...
i have tried. i have spent all my adult life as a scientist, i.e. someone who tries to understand how things work by making observations. i have observed the universe, and made inferences from my obersvations. those inferences are a set of mathematical descriptions of how the universe works. these mathematical descriptions fit what i observe perfectly, and make very accurate predictions about the future.
i have researched alternative theories, including astrology, but these theories have several problems:
-there is no explainable mechanism for how they work.
-they do not flow logically from the observations i make.
-they do not make accurate predictions of the future.
because of these, i accept the laws of physics instead of alternative theories. the laws of physics are also theories and not absolute fact, i accept that. any respectable scientist will. but the laws of physics are better theories than others because:
-they are logical.
-they match observations.
-they make accurate predictions.
we cannot know anything for certain (other than that statement in itself). that is a philosophical fact. what we can do is observe the world and make inferences. the laws of physics are the most accurate and reliable inferences made by mankind so far.
astrologers and the like seem to think that if a scientific theory isn't perfect or known to be absolute fact, then it is not valid. astrology isn't fact either. the difference is, science makes accurate predictions, astrology does not. do excuse me for believing the theory that works.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
Edited by alsey (04/12/05 07:35 AM)
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
#4044673 - 04/12/05 07:33 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
egghead1 said:
Then you cannot say for certain that celestial bodies do not influence our personalities, its just your personal belief and not a solid fact either way.
but it is a belief based on observations. astrology is not based on observations, it is completely contrived.
if i were to say the earth rests on the back of giant turtle, would you believe me? no, because i just made it up in my head. the same goes for astrology.
Quote:
Who knows what revelations indian sages have had about astralogical influences and their effects. Personal experience is more important than hard proof or evidence, even if it isnt as reliable or substancial.
that depends on what you value. if you value sensible, working explanations for the universe, then evidence is more important.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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egghead1
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044683 - 04/12/05 07:38 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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I prefer to expereince the universe nakedly first hand rather than make rational observations of it. Of course i accept your view as a very logical and rational view that is limited in its ability to experience directly without questioning, judging and analysis.
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
#4044688 - 04/12/05 07:41 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
egghead1 said:
I prefer to expereince the universe nakedly first hand rather than make rational observations of it. Of course i accept your view as a very logical and rational view that is limited in its ability to experience directly without questioning, judging and analysis.
what do you mean by 'nakedly first hand'?
my ability to experience things is no different than yours, unless you are of a different species to me. i do not judge what i observe, i see it for what it is, and make inferences based upon it.
at the end of the day, i have a theory that works. you do not.
to say that you don't make rational observations is to admit that you are stupid (stupid = incapable of thinking rationally).
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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egghead1
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044699 - 04/12/05 07:48 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Im just pushing your buttons, no need to get excited. 
I can think rationally, but most of the time i try to observe my thoughts without entering into judgements or infering meaning. Once the corse level of thoughts have subsided the the subtle level of thought processes become more clear, then once that subtle restless activity of the mind has been allowed to cease the universe is expereinced nakedly and directly without the obscurations of mental restelessness of rational and irrational thought processes. Thats not a theory, thats practice.
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044710 - 04/12/05 07:52 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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I posted this in another thread concerning astrology...is a pitty if you might miss this...
Autobiography of a Yogi
by Paramahansa Yogananda
Quote:
"Mukunda, why don't you get an astrological armlet?"
"Should I, Master? I don't believe in astrology."
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief.
"Charlatans have brought the stellar science to its present state of disrepute. Astrology is too vast, both mathematically and philosophically, to be rightly grasped except by men of profound understanding. If ignoramuses misread the heavens, and see there a scrawl instead of a script, that is to be expected in this imperfect world. One should not dismiss the wisdom with the 'wise.'
Quote:
Swami said:
You tell me what SPECIFICALLY that astrology can predict about your life.
Note: Astrologically proponents can amazingly match up a reading with their sign about 8.5% of the time.
In the autobiography says also....
Quote:
"The message boldly blazoned across the heavens at the moment of birth is not meant to emphasize fate?the result of past good and evil?but to arouse man's will to escape from his universal thralldom. What he has done, he can undo. None other than himself was the instigator of the causes of whatever effects are now prevalent in his life. He can overcome any limitation, because he created it by his own actions in the first place, and because he has spiritual resources which are not subject to planetary pressure.
"Superstitious awe of astrology makes one an automaton, slavishly dependent on mechanical guidance. The wise man defeats his planets?which is to say, his past?by transferring his allegiance from the creation to the Creator. The more he realizes his unity with Spirit, the less he can be dominated by matter. The soul is ever-free; it is deathless because birthless. It cannot be regimented by stars.
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"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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the_phoenix
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
#4044722 - 04/12/05 08:02 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
alsey said:
pheonix, you're still avoiding the real issue. there is no way celestial bodies can influence our personality.
My whole point that I'm trying to express is that perhaps, indeed, they don't. Perhaps they merely represent the changing of the seasons and, in so doing, symbolize seasonal influences through ancient mythology.
Delusion_of_Self, very good point. It's true, we can overcome our symbols so that a weakness they describe may no longer be present in our characters. Yes, we chose how and where we'd be born before we were. I'm just starting to understand why I chose the parents I did...
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alsey
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
#4044735 - 04/12/05 08:08 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
egghead1 said:
I can think rationally, but most of the time i try to observe my thoughts without entering into judgements or infering meaning. Once the corse level of thoughts have subsided the the subtle level of thought processes become more clear, then once that subtle restless activity of the mind has been allowed to cease the universe is expereinced nakedly and directly without the obscurations of mental restelessness of rational and irrational thought processes. Thats not a theory, thats practice.
right, i know what you mean. i've been meditating for years now and i understand that fully. however, rational thought does not require judgement or inference of meaning. 'meaning' has nothing to do with science. science is a description of the universe. it just describes things the way they are. it tells us how, but not why. the 'why' is something we must decide for ourselves inside. that is why 'meaning' is a subjective thing that different people will reach different conclusions about. science, however, is objective and is independent of our own beliefs. for example, a computer can perform the scientific method: you can feed it data (observations) and it will make inferences through the use of logic. but a computer cannot formulate its own beliefs, and it cannot give meanings or explain 'why'.
the fact remains that the laws of physics explain the workings of the universe well and make accurate predictions, while astrology does not.
astrology is simply a bad theory (at least in its current state), because IT DOESN'T WORK.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: the_phoenix]
#4044738 - 04/12/05 08:10 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
the_phoenix said:
Quote:
alsey said:
pheonix, you're still avoiding the real issue. there is no way celestial bodies can influence our personality.
My whole point that I'm trying to express is that perhaps, indeed, they don't. Perhaps they merely represent the changing of the seasons and, in so doing, symbolize seasonal influences through ancient mythology.
right, i think i understand you better now.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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egghead1
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044740 - 04/12/05 08:11 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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You mean that astarology didnt work for 'YOU'! Not that it does'nt work out right, its just your subjective experience. There are many different forms of astrology, you cant make a statement for everyone becuase we each have our own individual experience.
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
#4044754 - 04/12/05 08:18 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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yes, but one instance in which the theory does not work invalidates the thoery.
if i threw a ball in the air and it started hovering instead of falling to the ground, the theory of gravity would be invalidated. even if everyone else threw balls in the air and their balls fell to the ground, the theory would still be invalidated because it doesn't work in every case.
the laws of physics work in every case thus far observed. when a law is seen to be broken, the law is abandoned and scientists try to find a new law that works.
this is the difference between scientists and astrologers. scientists accept their mistakes and continue to modify their theories to fit what they observe. astrologers ignorantly cling to their incorrect theories despite countless instances in which their theories do not work.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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egghead1
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4044832 - 04/12/05 08:50 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Take for instance QI energy. Physics cannot explain it yet its the cornerstone of many religions on this planet and well as martial arts. Now if one person doesn't experience it, are we to throw it out? Same thing as the mind, physics cant explain it, so are we to conclude that it doesn't exist? There are many things that science will never be able to fathom simply because its based on material existence.
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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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 vampirism
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4045060 - 04/12/05 10:16 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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not quite. There are unexplainable occurances in reality; does that invalidate reality, until something explains the occurance?
Astrology, at least some of it, is direct abstraction from reality. It shows no logical mechanism because it is based on observation and not logic. Note that I completely separate these two. Astrology is irrational to a degree, but that is reflective of reality itself.
As this is a case, it is impossible to apply a systematic approach toward interpretting astrology. It must be applied subjectively, but at the same time it is based off of objectivity.
That said, what have you looked at in astrology? Have you looked at mayan astrology? Tell me what you think of this:
http://www.icandosomething.com/mayancalendar
http://www.astrodreamadvisor.com/free_mayan_readings.html
the first one is concise and provides you with your sign. The second one expands on your sign ( yours is ONLY the first and last section on the html page.. the rest are others in immediate relation to you )
In my experience, yellows and whites most often fail to see validity in the results. Based on your scientific position, i would guess that you are either red or yellow. Based on the above and what you are arguing, i guess yellow ( very broad still ). Note that this is purely my guess and is just me trying to practice figuring this stuff out :p ( i see at least one very very large problem in my doing so, however )
Anyway, what do you see?
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alsey
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: egghead1]
#4045079 - 04/12/05 10:22 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
egghead1 said:
Take for instance QI energy. Physics cannot explain it yet its the cornerstone of many religions on this planet and well as martial arts. Now if one person doesn't experience it, are we to throw it out? Same thing as the mind, physics cant explain it, so are we to conclude that it doesn't exist?
this is a different matter. qi is a phenomenon, not a theory.
you are correct: just because science cannot explain something, it doesn't mean that it is untrue, it just means that thus far we have been unable to explain it rationally. but the fact that science cannot yet explain a particular phenomenon does not invalidate the rest of science!
i was talking about theories, not phenomena. a good theory matches observations and makes accurate predictions about the future. astrology is a bad theory because it fails in both of those things.
Quote:
There are many things that science will never be able to fathom simply because its based on material existence.
incorrect. the scientific method has the potential to describe any phenomena. the limitations are in our own intellectual capacity. because we are limited as humans, and do not know everything, some of us resort to the supernatural to explain what we do not understand. humans have done this for thousands of years, but it is not a logical thing to do. belief in the supernatural arises because people cannot accept that some things are unknown.
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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: Possible explanation into the workings of astrology? [Re: alsey]
#4045097 - 04/12/05 10:27 AM (19 years, 8 days ago) |
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astrology isn't a theory.
Scientific method is a system and its flaw is basically that it is incredibly slow. The Universe is practically infinite.
Consider them as data systems: you need something to interpret data, and you need data. With logic based systems, the interpretting mechanism works well, but adding data and sorting it makes it very impractical. With observation based abstraction, you have the data at your fingertips, but intepretting it is both tricky and a skill.
In short, science is too slow and astrology is not systematic and thus has no objectively verifiable accuracy.
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