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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: AgingHippy]
    #7525815 -

Np just saying no hard feelings. :cheers:


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you see the world through the window of your experience

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: elcharrosays]
    #7525818 -

:rotfl:

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: elcharrosays]
    #7525831 -

elcharrosays said:
btw, what is this photoshop thing you speak of?
is it tangible?
how do you know it really exists?
i gather you've seen this photoshop but since we're throwing the whole "seeing is believing" thing out the window have you actually felt it? smelled it? experienced it?


No I have not that is why I am very skeptical of your photo I am not even shure you are a person with a profile maybe your a computer robot on the shroomery who was sent to auto respond to save the world in case they stopped believing in atoms.


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you see the world through the window of your experience

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7525860 -

congratulations you cracked the system.

consider this enlightenment.


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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7525864 -

:rotfl:

so somebody DID invent an AI shroomery autoresponder user.  hey, anythings possible?

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7525965 -

Walter1496211 said:
I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing.  I want proof that the books you have read are facts.  I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.


Good luck with that. :shrug: The problem of skepticism is insoluble; we will never know anything for certain. But there are some things that make more sense than others based on the information apparent to us. It is more practical to trust our sense perception and basic logic than to distrust these things. I don't need absolute proof that I have a computer to use one and achieve results. Spending my whole life blinking at it, wondering if it's really there or not or if I'm really deluded isn't really going to do much for me. Of course I'm free to ask these questions, and believe me I do. It's just that, to refer to Nietzsche once more, absolutely everything is interpretation - we hold beliefs so long as they work for us (hold survival value.) Once they no longer have any survival value, they are easy to break apart and reject. Accepting that there is some kind of external reality, and that it is probably fairly predictable (my house will probably be there when I get home) allows us to function. No predictability = no capacity to do anything ever. It makes sense to accept what is apparent to my eyes, ears, nose, taste, touch. Trusting these things has worked in the past, and until something crazy happens, will probably continue to work. But then who knows.

There's also a big difference between doubting the existence of computers and doubting the factuality of opinions and beliefs. The latter is open to a great deal more debate than the former.

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7526003 -

I don't need absolute proof that I have a computer to use one and achieve results. Spending my whole life blinking at it, wondering if it's really there or not or if I'm really deluded isn't really going to do much for me.

an atom is there alright, but can we fully know what it is just by looking at it with our physical eyes?

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
    #7526071 -

No, we can't. We can (and have) developed tools to help us see things smaller than our eyes can see. But I don't really mean to get backed into arguing for empiricism... I'm not really an empiricist. I'm just saying that sense perception is more or less useful and so worthy of trust on practical grounds. I'm not arguing that sense perception is the only thing we can or should trust, just that it's an easy example. The problem of skepticism is insoluble, we will never know with absolute certainty, but to get through the day we've got to suspend disbelief a little bit and trust our experience. Otherwise we'd be incapacitated.

This reminds me of a funny story... one time Simone de Beauvoir backed Sartre into arguing against the germ theory of disease on grounds that germs were not visible to the naked eye and thus the theory was inconsistant with a phenomenological view of human experience. He liked to take extreme positions for the sake of taking them, and didn't necessarily buy them. :lol:

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7526081 -

Quote:
NiamhNyx said:This reminds me of a funny story... one time Simone de Beauvoir backed Sartre into arguing against the germ theory of disease on grounds that germs were not visible to the naked eye and thus the theory was inconsistant with a phenomenological view of human experience. He liked to take extreme positions for the sake of taking them, and didn't necessarily buy them. :lol:


sounds like something i would do :bigjoint:

and no I'm definitely not in disagreement with you nor do I have anything to argue about :wink:

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
    #7526109 -

Oh that past post looked like pragmatism which I believe destroys scepticism.

If the answer to a question won't change anything, then why ask it?

That's pretty much pragmatism right there. Does an atom exist? Well if it does or if it doesn't it won't change a single thing about my life. I will still wake up tomorrow, go to work, come home, smoke some weed and go to sleep.

Scepticism can go pretty far, to the point of the Malicious Demon which Descartes talks about. Basically it's possible that there's a demon which controls all our sensory input and we are just minds. However I do think and I know that. In this case nothing exists except our minds. "I think therefore I am".

Now if I knew this was true I could do two things: either kill myself or keep living my life. Killing myself would certainly end the demon controlling my world but it would also, presumeably, end my thoughts. At least with the demon I am relatively alive. I think that if I found out that nothing existed and I was being fed all my sensory information by a Malicious Demon; I would just go on living my life like I am. Nothing would change. So why ask the question?

I don't need to know that atoms exist, so I don't need proof. I don't need to know that I am talking to people with computers on this forum. If it turned out you were all machines I would still some here and enjoy the conversation and information. So I don't care about proof.

I do need proof when someone says there's a christian god however because the answer would change by behaviour.

As Nobodhi said, we don't need proof that the computer in front of us exists. We can use it and achieve results perfectly fine without the proof. So why ask the question?

Of course it can be fun to ask these questions, let your mind play with the possibilities. That's what's great about philosophy.

Does anything really exist? The truth; it doesn't matter. :wink: :bongload:


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Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7526173 -

That's pretty much pragmatism right there. Does an atom exist? Well if it does or if it doesn't it won't change a single thing about my life. I will still wake up tomorrow, go to work, come home, smoke some weed and go to sleep.

i never asked the question of whether or not an atom exists. in all honesty i could care less and i DO NOT waste my life thinking about such things. yet, there are different views of what dna or atoms actually are and i am not sure which one to believe so i won't believe any, just experience. i am talking about the knowledge of atoms, i believe it was Walter who brought up the question of the existence of atoms. although i did agree with him, mainly on the *proof* part. at one time synthetic c vitamins were proven to have the same molecular structure as natural vitamin c occuring in actual fruit. little did they know was that the vitamin c extracted from corn sugar can have a negative effect on health taken in large doses as opposed to ascorbic acid extracted from fruit powders etc. this is all i'm getting at. those people who claimed to have "proof" at one time actually turned out to be completely wrong.

but taking this stuff seriously definitely is a hindrance along my path.

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7526182 -

I have yet to hear someone prove to me without a doubt atoms exist. My question still stands. You sound like Christians beating around the bush trying to stray from the fact that you cannot prove your point. Very sad IMO.


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you see the world through the window of your experience

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7526203 -

why must there be proof?

you sound like people who deny OBE's because it's not proven in the lab and they have not experienced it for themselves.

you won't get anywhere asking those questions.

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
    #7526212 -

Nobodhi said:
why must there be proof?

you sound like people who deny OBE's because it's not proven in the lab and they have not experienced it for themselves.

you won't get anywhere asking those questions.


Wow the winds have changed, I am making a point. I want proof because there is none and until someone sais they can prove it without a doubt I wont believe.


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you see the world through the window of your experience

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7526239 -

i get your point, but my point is that your not going to find the proof that your looking for. so i don't see a point in asking for proof, that is all.

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
    #7526246 -

I am not asking for proof for the sake of knowing I am saying that the next time someone asks me for proof in anything I believe maybe I'll ask them for proof in what they believe first.


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you see the world through the window of your experience

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7526253 -

why would somebody ask you for proof in the first place?

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7526278 -

Yeah but usually when someone asks you that question you aren't telling them what you believe in, you are telling them why they should believe in the thing you believe it...there's a difference.

If you believe in something, that's fine..I don't need proof. But when you say I should be believing in it too; then I need proof.

What I believe makes no difference so your question is irrelevant.


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
    #7526279 -

Nobodhi said:
why would somebody ask you for proof in the first place?


(example) Ok for your sake I will tell you God and Jesus exist they love you and care about you and if you believe in them you will be happy and nothing will every destroy your soul your life might be hard but your reward will be full in an afterlife..

Now tell me do you believe this?

Or should I prove it?

this is might point.

DONT ASK ME FOR PROOF AND I WONT ASK YOU.


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you see the world through the window of your experience

Edited by Walter1496211 (10/17/07 12:40 AM)

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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7526295 -

you say that God and Jesus exist. but how are we supposed to know what you mean by those words? they are merely words to me. what is it that exists, your conception of god, the whole of existence, a man in the clouds, what is it?

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