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Walter1496211
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I want proof..
#7525467 - 10/16/07 09:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing. I want proof that the books you have read are facts. I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 09:05 PM)
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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proof proof proof proof, there will never be enough.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7525488 - 10/16/07 09:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Look, a
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Its not.
 Just my personal bubble that I put together. I read books, sometimes. They are full of good ideas. You make them real. You choose to live in whatever you want. Truth?? Proof??
No, no, no... Poof. Like magic.
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Walter1496211
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Nobody yet?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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deep
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: Nobody yet?
Well if you decide to present us the philosophical purpose for which you need prove for all that, you might get some.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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are you asking him if hes a nobody yet?
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Walter1496211
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7525543 - 10/16/07 09:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I want proof because dont believe anyone in this forum that posts has an opinion that is founded upon there own belief. And if it is a fact (like Atoms) Like I said how are my eyes the same as yours and what if they are not?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 09:19 PM)
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said: Nobody yet?
Well if you decide to present us the philosophical purpose for which you need prove for all that, you might get some.
Easy to say. when you don't have an answer.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7525572 - 10/16/07 09:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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you can see this so that proves i have a computer. you exist so atoms exist. your eyes are not like mine and cannot see the same thing. most of the books i have read were not facts. my opinion though shaped by everything and everyone but me have irrefutably been mine from birth because i say it and that makes it my opinion. whether its my original opinion is another matter and it only matters to anyone else but myself if they chose for it to matter.
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Walter1496211
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How does the fact that atoms exist make atoms exist?? I have never seen an atom. And if you have maybe it was a spec in the microcope? Maybe a spore didn't get washed off. what if I was made of something else? Atoms? really? Who has seen one? If you know you must have read it in a book must be a fact? or not?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 09:29 PM)
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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why are you telling me this?
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: How does the fact that atoms exist make atoms exist?? I have never seen an atom. And if you have maybe it was a spec in the microcope? Maybe a spore didn't get washed off. what if I was made of something else? Atoms? really? Who has seen one? If you know you must have read it in a book must be a fact? or not?
I completely agree man, I think people who think they know what an atom is don't really know what an atom is at all.
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: Who has seen one?
I have, in fact this huge dna strand (about 4-5 ft. in diameter) appeared around my body and was spiraling upwards with me inside. Of course it was only a manifestation of my mind, as there is no proof it had anything to do with an atom
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elcharrosays
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7525645 - 10/16/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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atoms have been experimented upon and manipulated. theyve been split apart and smashed together. its a bit more than a vague idea.
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Walter1496211
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I have seen post after post of Christians and people who believe in God defending what they believe in but I have no one at all to defend the opinions of people who quote from school books and personal opinions. Maybe I have chosen the right side. You would think That the people who come to this forum of philosophy and spirituality could tell me one reason I should believe in and atom or that the opinions they hold are facts. Not one person or computer profile. I say that if you think everything is relative and only facts and simple matter. Then why is there so little proof? And why hasn't one person said they have seen an atom. And why cant they tell me that there eyes function exactly as mine do?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 09:42 PM)
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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does that mean that thy are fully known?
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
elcharrosays said: atoms have been experimented upon and manipulated. theyve been split apart and smashed together. its a bit more than a vague idea.
Have you seen one????
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
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have you seen AIR? have you seen your MIND? does that mean they exist any less?
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AgingHippy
Flwr Pwr



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7525718 - 10/16/07 09:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i think you're trying too hard to be philosophical. You have to narrow it down, you can't just ask why? you have to have a specific question in mind.
-people can see atoms, or images of atoms put together by computers. Here is an image of the tip of the sharpest man made object, a tungsten needle, and each of the light-colored balls is an individual atom that moved during the imaging.
A fact is something that can be proven over and over despite trying to disprove it. The word fact though, does not seem appropriate in my opinion. If something is decided to be fact because it can be proven over and over, it doesn't mean there isn't something unknown to us that could disprove it. I think all facts would be better categorized as "solid theories" or something similar to that.
Edited by AgingHippy (10/16/07 09:54 PM)
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Walter1496211
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I don't know if they exist?? I am unsure I can't see inside my scull and air seems to be really blurry unless satuated with moisture? I am making a point stop telling people to prove what they believe in!!!
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Quote:
teefizzle said: i think you're trying too hard to be philosophical. You have to narrow it down, you can't just ask why? you have to have a specific question in mind.
-people can see atoms, or images of atoms put together by computers. Here is an image of the tip of the sharpest man made object, a tungsten needle, and each of the light-colored balls is an individual atom that moved during the imaging.
A fact is something that can be proven over and over despite trying to disprove it. The word fact though, does not seem appropriate in my opinion. If something is decided to be fact because it can be proven over and over, it doesn't mean there isn't something unknown to us that could disprove it. I think all facts would be better categorized as "solid theories" or something similar to that.
So the fact that over and over people can see atoms under a microscope proves a point more that people in this world who say over and over that God and Jesus exists?
Seeing something under a microscope made by someone who wanted to see something is more factual than and entire civilization of people who believe in God and Jesus to be said over and over again for longer than people knew an atom existed?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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AgingHippy
Flwr Pwr



Registered: 04/19/07
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Since I can't imagine any significant conversation coming from this thread, I'll entertain you with this idea: Why do you care what people tell you to think? The people that are claiming things to be real might not be real at all. They could just be a figment of your imagination, part of a larger illusion that you believe you exist in?
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
elcharrosays said: http://www.blazelabs.com/.%5Cpics%5Catomsibm.jpg http://www.astro.virginia.edu/class/whittle/astr124/matter/atom_lattice.html
there man some pictures of atoms.
try google next time.
Who took those pictures have you heard of photo shop?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
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ah this is going nowhere. later.
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AgingHippy
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
elcharrosays said:
Quote:
elcharrosays said: http://www.blazelabs.com/.%5Cpics%5Catomsibm.jpg http://www.astro.virginia.edu/class/whittle/astr124/matter/atom_lattice.html
there man some pictures of atoms.
try google next time.
Who took those pictures have you heard of photo shop?
ah this is going nowhere. later.
lmao
Edited by AgingHippy (10/16/07 10:04 PM)
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
teefizzle said: i think you're trying too hard to be philosophical. You have to narrow it down, you can't just ask why? you have to have a specific question in mind.
-people can see atoms, or images of atoms put together by computers. Here is an image of the tip of the sharpest man made object, a tungsten needle, and each of the light-colored balls is an individual atom that moved during the imaging.
A fact is something that can be proven over and over despite trying to disprove it. The word fact though, does not seem appropriate in my opinion. If something is decided to be fact because it can be proven over and over, it doesn't mean there isn't something unknown to us that could disprove it. I think all facts would be better categorized as "solid theories" or something similar to that.
So the fact that over and over people can see atoms under a microscope proves a point more that people in this world who say over and over that God and Jesus exists?
Seeing something under a microscope made by someone who wanted to see something is more factual than and entire civilization of people who believe in God and Jesus to be said over and over again for longer than people knew an atom existed?
I do apologize for this ridiculous post but like I said I have heard so many people post saying "prove to me this prove to me God prove to me Jesus" I am not trying to prove in one way or another but right now in this forum I guarantee not one person can prove the atom exists and I would like everyone who attacks someone who believes in what they believe without seeing to think about what they are saying.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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Quote:
teefizzle said: i think you're trying too hard to be philosophical.
i am more skeptical of those who claim to know what an atom is.
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AgingHippy
Flwr Pwr



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If there was an all-knowing being, do you think he'd be reading your post on the Shroomery? No hard feelings.
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
elcharrosays said: ah this is going nowhere. later.
Thats exactly what I say when I try to prove my point about God. Thank you.. You cant prove your point. You cant solidify your opinion you offered pictures from the internet (I could get pictures of Jesus from the internet) and you concede when you can convince me now you know how it feels to be a Christian.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
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btw, what is this photoshop thing you speak of? is it tangible? how do you know it really exists? i gather youve seen this photoshop but since we're throwing the whole "seeing is believing" thing out the window have you actually felt it? smelled it? experienced it?
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
teefizzle said: If there was an all-knowing being, do you think he'd be reading your post on the Shroomery? No hard feelings.
No I don't at all..If there was an all encompassing atom do you think it would be present in this post?
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 10:07 PM)
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AgingHippy
Flwr Pwr



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
elcharrosays said: ah this is going nowhere. later.
Thats exactly what I say when I try to prove my point about God. Thank you.. You cant prove your point. You cant solidify your opinion you offered pictures from the internet (I could get pictures of Jesus from the internet) and you concede when you can convince me now you know how it feels to be a Christian.
a picture of an atom has a bit more credibility, but I understand what you mean. In my opinion, if you aren't too worried about knowing the truth, and you can accept that it's very very unlikely that you will ever know the ultimate answer in your lifetime, then just believe whatever makes you happy and be thankful that you're even alive and able to think of such a grand question!
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
elcharrosays said: ah this is going nowhere. later.
Thats exactly what I say when I try to prove my point about God. Thank you.. You cant prove your point. You cant solidify your opinion you offered pictures from the internet (I could get pictures of Jesus from the internet) and you concede when you can convince me now you know how it feels to be a Christian.
atoms are god's alter egos
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
teefizzle said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
elcharrosays said: ah this is going nowhere. later.
Thats exactly what I say when I try to prove my point about God. Thank you.. You cant prove your point. You cant solidify your opinion you offered pictures from the internet (I could get pictures of Jesus from the internet) and you concede when you can convince me now you know how it feels to be a Christian.
a picture of an atom has a bit more credibility, but I understand what you mean. In my opinion, if you aren't too worried about knowing the truth, and you can accept that it's very very unlikely that you will ever know the ultimate answer in your lifetime, then just believe whatever makes you happy and be thankful that you're even alive and able to think of such a grand question!
Very well.. You wanna come over for a beer???
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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AgingHippy
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lol, not sure where you are, but I have an essay to work on for english comp, so no drinks tonight
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elcharrosays
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7525811 - 10/16/07 10:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nobodhi said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
elcharrosays said: ah this is going nowhere. later.
Thats exactly what I say when I try to prove my point about God. Thank you.. You cant prove your point. You cant solidify your opinion you offered pictures from the internet (I could get pictures of Jesus from the internet) and you concede when you can convince me now you know how it feels to be a Christian.
atoms are god's alter egos
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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fuck beer want KETAMINE?
come on over everyone
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Np just saying no hard feelings.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Quote:
elcharrosays said: btw, what is this photoshop thing you speak of? is it tangible? how do you know it really exists? i gather you've seen this photoshop but since we're throwing the whole "seeing is believing" thing out the window have you actually felt it? smelled it? experienced it?
No I have not that is why I am very skeptical of your photo I am not even shure you are a person with a profile maybe your a computer robot on the shroomery who was sent to auto respond to save the world in case they stopped believing in atoms.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
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congratulations you cracked the system.
consider this enlightenment.
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
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so somebody DID invent an AI shroomery autoresponder user. hey, anythings possible?
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing. I want proof that the books you have read are facts. I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.
Good luck with that. The problem of skepticism is insoluble; we will never know anything for certain. But there are some things that make more sense than others based on the information apparent to us. It is more practical to trust our sense perception and basic logic than to distrust these things. I don't need absolute proof that I have a computer to use one and achieve results. Spending my whole life blinking at it, wondering if it's really there or not or if I'm really deluded isn't really going to do much for me. Of course I'm free to ask these questions, and believe me I do. It's just that, to refer to Nietzsche once more, absolutely everything is interpretation - we hold beliefs so long as they work for us (hold survival value.) Once they no longer have any survival value, they are easy to break apart and reject. Accepting that there is some kind of external reality, and that it is probably fairly predictable (my house will probably be there when I get home) allows us to function. No predictability = no capacity to do anything ever. It makes sense to accept what is apparent to my eyes, ears, nose, taste, touch. Trusting these things has worked in the past, and until something crazy happens, will probably continue to work. But then who knows.
There's also a big difference between doubting the existence of computers and doubting the factuality of opinions and beliefs. The latter is open to a great deal more debate than the former.
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7526003 - 10/16/07 11:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't need absolute proof that I have a computer to use one and achieve results. Spending my whole life blinking at it, wondering if it's really there or not or if I'm really deluded isn't really going to do much for me.
an atom is there alright, but can we fully know what it is just by looking at it with our physical eyes?
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NiamhNyx
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526071 - 10/16/07 11:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, we can't. We can (and have) developed tools to help us see things smaller than our eyes can see. But I don't really mean to get backed into arguing for empiricism... I'm not really an empiricist. I'm just saying that sense perception is more or less useful and so worthy of trust on practical grounds. I'm not arguing that sense perception is the only thing we can or should trust, just that it's an easy example. The problem of skepticism is insoluble, we will never know with absolute certainty, but to get through the day we've got to suspend disbelief a little bit and trust our experience. Otherwise we'd be incapacitated.
This reminds me of a funny story... one time Simone de Beauvoir backed Sartre into arguing against the germ theory of disease on grounds that germs were not visible to the naked eye and thus the theory was inconsistant with a phenomenological view of human experience. He liked to take extreme positions for the sake of taking them, and didn't necessarily buy them.
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7526081 - 10/16/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said:This reminds me of a funny story... one time Simone de Beauvoir backed Sartre into arguing against the germ theory of disease on grounds that germs were not visible to the naked eye and thus the theory was inconsistant with a phenomenological view of human experience. He liked to take extreme positions for the sake of taking them, and didn't necessarily buy them.
sounds like something i would do 
and no I'm definitely not in disagreement with you nor do I have anything to argue about
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Yosefxp
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526109 - 10/16/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh that past post looked like pragmatism which I believe destroys scepticism.
If the answer to a question won't change anything, then why ask it?
That's pretty much pragmatism right there. Does an atom exist? Well if it does or if it doesn't it won't change a single thing about my life. I will still wake up tomorrow, go to work, come home, smoke some weed and go to sleep.
Scepticism can go pretty far, to the point of the Malicious Demon which Descartes talks about. Basically it's possible that there's a demon which controls all our sensory input and we are just minds. However I do think and I know that. In this case nothing exists except our minds. "I think therefore I am".
Now if I knew this was true I could do two things: either kill myself or keep living my life. Killing myself would certainly end the demon controlling my world but it would also, presumeably, end my thoughts. At least with the demon I am relatively alive. I think that if I found out that nothing existed and I was being fed all my sensory information by a Malicious Demon; I would just go on living my life like I am. Nothing would change. So why ask the question?
I don't need to know that atoms exist, so I don't need proof. I don't need to know that I am talking to people with computers on this forum. If it turned out you were all machines I would still some here and enjoy the conversation and information. So I don't care about proof.
I do need proof when someone says there's a christian god however because the answer would change by behaviour.
As Nobodhi said, we don't need proof that the computer in front of us exists. We can use it and achieve results perfectly fine without the proof. So why ask the question?
Of course it can be fun to ask these questions, let your mind play with the possibilities. That's what's great about philosophy.
Does anything really exist? The truth; it doesn't matter.
-------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Yosefxp]
#7526173 - 10/16/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's pretty much pragmatism right there. Does an atom exist? Well if it does or if it doesn't it won't change a single thing about my life. I will still wake up tomorrow, go to work, come home, smoke some weed and go to sleep.
i never asked the question of whether or not an atom exists. in all honesty i could care less and i DO NOT waste my life thinking about such things. yet, there are different views of what dna or atoms actually are and i am not sure which one to believe so i won't believe any, just experience. i am talking about the knowledge of atoms, i believe it was Walter who brought up the question of the existence of atoms. although i did agree with him, mainly on the *proof* part. at one time synthetic c vitamins were proven to have the same molecular structure as natural vitamin c occuring in actual fruit. little did they know was that the vitamin c extracted from corn sugar can have a negative effect on health taken in large doses as opposed to ascorbic acid extracted from fruit powders etc. this is all i'm getting at. those people who claimed to have "proof" at one time actually turned out to be completely wrong.
but taking this stuff seriously definitely is a hindrance along my path.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



Registered: 09/09/07
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I have yet to hear someone prove to me without a doubt atoms exist. My question still stands. You sound like Christians beating around the bush trying to stray from the fact that you cannot prove your point. Very sad IMO.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 50
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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why must there be proof?
you sound like people who deny OBE's because it's not proven in the lab and they have not experienced it for themselves.
you won't get anywhere asking those questions.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526212 - 10/17/07 12:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nobodhi said: why must there be proof?
you sound like people who deny OBE's because it's not proven in the lab and they have not experienced it for themselves.
you won't get anywhere asking those questions.
Wow the winds have changed, I am making a point. I want proof because there is none and until someone sais they can prove it without a doubt I wont believe.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 50
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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i get your point, but my point is that your not going to find the proof that your looking for. so i don't see a point in asking for proof, that is all.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



Registered: 09/09/07
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526246 - 10/17/07 12:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am not asking for proof for the sake of knowing I am saying that the next time someone asks me for proof in anything I believe maybe I'll ask them for proof in what they believe first.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 50
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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why would somebody ask you for proof in the first place?
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Yosefxp
HarmReductionist




Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 148
Loc: Hamilton, New Zealand
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Yeah but usually when someone asks you that question you aren't telling them what you believe in, you are telling them why they should believe in the thing you believe it...there's a difference.
If you believe in something, that's fine..I don't need proof. But when you say I should be believing in it too; then I need proof.
What I believe makes no difference so your question is irrelevant.
-------------------- Well it's alright riding around in the breeze Well it's alright if you live the life you please Well it's alright doing the best you can Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



Registered: 09/09/07
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526279 - 10/17/07 12:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nobodhi said: why would somebody ask you for proof in the first place?
(example) Ok for your sake I will tell you God and Jesus exist they love you and care about you and if you believe in them you will be happy and nothing will every destroy your soul your life might be hard but your reward will be full in an afterlife..
Now tell me do you believe this?
Or should I prove it?
this is might point.
DONT ASK ME FOR PROOF AND I WONT ASK YOU.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/17/07 12:40 AM)
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
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you say that God and Jesus exist. but how are we supposed to know what you mean by those words? they are merely words to me. what is it that exists, your conception of god, the whole of existence, a man in the clouds, what is it?
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526304 - 10/17/07 12:39 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nobodhi said: you say that God and Jesus exist. but how are we supposed to know what you mean by those words? they are merely words to me. what is it that exists, your conception of god, the whole of existence, a man in the clouds, what is it?
It was an example go back and read it don't wast my time.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526311 - 10/17/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes and i am telling you why people ask you for proof, since you clearly stated:
DONT ASK ME FOR PROOF AND I WONT ASK YOU.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526325 - 10/17/07 12:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nobodhi said: yes and i am telling you why people ask you for proof, since you clearly stated:
DONT ASK ME FOR PROOF AND I WONT ASK YOU.
And I am saying consider my words take them in think about them if they move you then so be it if not move on. But don't F-ing ask me to prove it. I don't care if you believe its your choice. Its everyones choice. People will say over and over again I don't want to go to heavean because i don't believe in God good. See if I care.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Nobodhi
aka.onlynow



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 50
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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it's a shame because people are always gonna ask you to prove it so you might as well accept it and find a way to move through if it annoys you so much.
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FocusHawaii
Keeper of theMagic Garden

Registered: 12/27/02
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Loc: Canada
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526469 - 10/17/07 02:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
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Alright lets ignore definitive proof's then. However let's consider evidence one way or the other. Pile up all of your evidence for Jesus and God, and Ill pile up my evidence for atoms existing. Lets compare the size of our piles, hm yours feels kind of slim there. And if what you say is true, that there is a God and Jesus, then that means reality does exist with subjective opinions as in Christian doctrine we are all individuals. So based off your opinions you know as fact that I exist so I do not see your point. And then furthermore because God made everything in the universe and made it knowable and real for me to experience with my senses, and gave me a consciousness I should then be able to determine things about the nature of this universe. Therefore all the experiments that I have done to show atoms are real, are thus valid and have to be accepted by you.
However if you are wrong and there is no God or Jesus then we are back in a world with no definitives and thus the only course of action is to merely gather data. And at that point the side for atoms existing vs. not existing is heavily weighted in the first direction. See even if we are brains in a jar, logic will still hold. And so saying that because we can't definitively prove atoms exist, does not give free reign for anything else to be as real as atoms. You have forgotten logic, and evidence vs. non evidence of something existing. Even if a demon is controlling us, then we are in his world and whatever we see is as real as can be, and is thus defined as real. Therefore even still, any experiments we do, even if he changes the outcomes, are still valid and thus still carry more logical weight then a baseless statement about a book written 2000 years ago.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: TheCow]
#7526633 - 10/17/07 04:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: Alright lets ignore definitive proof's then. However let's consider evidence one way or the other. Pile up all of your evidence for Jesus and God, and Ill pile up my evidence for atoms existing. Lets compare the size of our piles, hm yours feels kind of slim there. And if what you say is true, that there is a God and Jesus, then that means reality does exist with subjective opinions as in Christian doctrine we are all individuals. So based off your opinions you know as fact that I exist so I do not see your point. And then furthermore because God made everything in the universe and made it knowable and real for me to experience with my senses, and gave me a consciousness I should then be able to determine things about the nature of this universe. Therefore all the experiments that I have done to show atoms are real, are thus valid and have to be accepted by you.
However if you are wrong and there is no God or Jesus then we are back in a world with no definitives and thus the only course of action is to merely gather data. And at that point the side for atoms existing vs. not existing is heavily weighted in the first direction. See even if we are brains in a jar, logic will still hold. And so saying that because we can't definitively prove atoms exist, does not give free reign for anything else to be as real as atoms. You have forgotten logic, and evidence vs. non evidence of something existing. Even if a demon is controlling us, then we are in his world and whatever we see is as real as can be, and is thus defined as real. Therefore even still, any experiments we do, even if he changes the outcomes, are still valid and thus still carry more logical weight then a baseless statement about a book written 2000 years ago.
You lost me in your first sentance I don't care about your paragraph drawn from opinion if you can't offer me proof then what you have to say is relative. What you have learned is relative. And by what means you have come to that understanding is relative I want proof.. if you cannot offer it don't try and dance around the subject.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Quote:
FocusHawaii said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiger-Marsden_experiment
A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
TheCow said: Alright lets ignore definitive proof's then. However let's consider evidence one way or the other. Pile up all of your evidence for Jesus and God, and Ill pile up my evidence for atoms existing. Lets compare the size of our piles, hm yours feels kind of slim there. And if what you say is true, that there is a God and Jesus, then that means reality does exist with subjective opinions as in Christian doctrine we are all individuals. So based off your opinions you know as fact that I exist so I do not see your point. And then furthermore because God made everything in the universe and made it knowable and real for me to experience with my senses, and gave me a consciousness I should then be able to determine things about the nature of this universe. Therefore all the experiments that I have done to show atoms are real, are thus valid and have to be accepted by you.
However if you are wrong and there is no God or Jesus then we are back in a world with no definitives and thus the only course of action is to merely gather data. And at that point the side for atoms existing vs. not existing is heavily weighted in the first direction. See even if we are brains in a jar, logic will still hold. And so saying that because we can't definitively prove atoms exist, does not give free reign for anything else to be as real as atoms. You have forgotten logic, and evidence vs. non evidence of something existing. Even if a demon is controlling us, then we are in his world and whatever we see is as real as can be, and is thus defined as real. Therefore even still, any experiments we do, even if he changes the outcomes, are still valid and thus still carry more logical weight then a baseless statement about a book written 2000 years ago.
You lost me in your first sentance I don't care about your paragraph drawn from opinion if you can't offer me proof then what you have to say is relative. What you have learned is relative. And by what means you have come to that understanding is relative I want proof.. if you cannot offer it don't try and dance around the subject.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: TheCow]
#7526642 - 10/17/07 04:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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My point exactly.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
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I know your point. Just be thankful though, that people like me still want to further science. I mean what would you do all day? Certainly not sit in front of your computer. No need to thank scientists though, your using our products is already endorsement of us enough.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: TheCow]
#7526650 - 10/17/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Very well.. A shot? A beer? A shroom?
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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TheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: TheCow]
#7526653 - 10/17/07 04:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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elcharrosays
Stranger



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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Nobodhi]
#7526906 - 10/17/07 08:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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see the problem here is that you keep throwing jesus and god into this whole thing and nobody really gives a shit about them because that conversation has been done more times than jenna jameson. philosophy and science were a whole lot more interesting.
and seriously dude. are you kidding me? your point is telling people not to ask for proof? do you remember how this thread started? do you see what the thread is called?! nobody has asked you for proof in anything in fact its been primarily the other way around.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Go to school. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these elementary questions.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: TheCow]
#7527075 - 10/17/07 10:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
See even if we are brains in a jar,
Vat, dude! I prefer vat. It sounds more sci-fi and sinister and laboratory-like.
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



Registered: 09/01/02
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Walter, your point is weak and you have yet to respond to my post, which is much more relevant then most of the garbage you've repeated over and over and over again. If you want a dialogue, then dialogue for christ sake.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
If that is the entirety of what your opinion on wikipedia is based upon, I'd have to state that your opinion isn't resting upon a good foundation. The content editing system makes it so that changed information is reviewed, and there are clearly a lot of dedicated individuals, much much more so than people like your personal friend, who ensure that information is accurate. In fact, I've read that scientific studies have determined that Wikipedia is more accurate than online versions of encyclopedias.
As with any source, it is to be taken as one perspective, and further research is advisable, but clearly Wikipedia is a great resource.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said: A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
If that is the entirety of what your opinion on wikipedia is based upon, I'd have to state that your opinion isn't resting upon a good foundation. The content editing system makes it so that changed information is reviewed, and there are clearly a lot of dedicated individuals, much much more so than people like your personal friend, who ensure that information is accurate. In fact, I've read that scientific studies have determined that Wikipedia is more accurate than online versions of encyclopedias.
As with any source, it is to be taken as one perspective, and further research is advisable, but clearly Wikipedia is a great resource.
Nature.org conducted a study that concluded Wikipedia was slightly less accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica. (Wikipedia had around 160 errors, the Encyclopedia Britannica contained about 135.)
That study was back in 2005, though. I'm sure wikipedia has become much more accurate since then.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: (example) Ok for your sake I will tell you God and Jesus exist they love you and care about you and if you believe in them you will be happy and nothing will every destroy your soul your life might be hard but your reward will be full in an afterlife..
Now tell me do you believe this?
Or should I prove it?
this is might point.
DONT ASK ME FOR PROOF AND I WONT ASK YOU.
Um, perhaps you should read the forum rules and guidelines, stickied at the top of this forum. This forum is specifically intended for critical discussion of the ideas and perspectives presented in this forum. If you post your example in this forum, it is to be expected that people will question the validity of the statement.
For the sake of clarity, allow me to quote the forum rules and guidelines:
Quote:
If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.
If you are in any way dissatisfied with the manners in which others choose to respond to your presented point of view, take solace in the fact that your intention in using the forum is not the intention of the forum, and that the Shroomery provides an alternate forum, in which this manner of discussion is not permitted. Feel free to visit Mysticism and the Paranormal if this be the case.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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InnerStillness
<3 U


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I think first we need to agree on a definition on what it means to exist. For something to exist it needs to have effects, this is the definition that I'm going to work with. Take an atom for example, we know that they exist because they are what make able the structure of our physical universe, the keyboard we are typing with is composed of atoms, molecules, compounds and shapes. We are able to see the effects of atoms so they exist in some manner. If an atom didn't exist then typing and seeing thoughts and concepts expressed onto this medium would be impossible.
Now on the other hand for something to exist separate and in its own right without the support of parts (to exist inherently in its own right) isn't possible. Take an atom for instance, if we try to find an atom which exist in its own right we fail. An atom is a combination of smaller forces, it is a collection of parts, we put a label on this whole and call it an atom. So in this respect the atom exist only as a concept and cant exist without the thought "atom". Or take the keyboard in front of you, at first glance it seems very solid and seems to exist in its own right. Upon further investigation of this "keyboard" we come to realize it is a sum of parts called keys, the plastic molding holding those keys, the cord plugging it into the computer, suddenly the "keyboard" no longer exists in its own right separate from everything.
In this way there is not anything which exist inherently in its own right, everything exist conceptually, atom is a concept; keyboard is a concept. So trying to prove that something exist is curious, but trying to see how it exist seems much more beneficial. God is a concept which we put on something we deem higher than ourself, but this is still a concept, and God exist beyond concepts, which is a concept.
PS. IDK I felt this post was kinda meandering and though I would add my 2c, allot of this post is inspired by the Dalai Lama's book How to See Yourself As You Truly Are
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I have yet to hear someone prove to me without a doubt atoms exist.
They have been determined to exist, in that the theory of their existance has predictive power. Human beings make observations, and then they form theories, and then they test their theories.
Technology, for example, is the greatest example of human beings making observations, forming theories as to the nature of reality, and then making predictions and testing reality, in order to determine if their understanding of reality is reflective of the actual nature of reality.
Now, considering that you are utilizing a computer to interact with us through the internet (it is a reasonable conclusion that you are a human being that is engaging in such activity, although we cannot conclusively determine it, although it is possible, especially for the American government ), I think it stands that our theory of the existance of atoms has predictive power. If it didn't, no computer, no incessant demanding for no shadow of a doubt proof.
Now, wonder why I bolded theory so much? Because human understanding exists only as theory. True certainty regarding the nature of reality is impossible. However, as we are capable of forming theories regarding the nature of reality, and through interaction with and observation of reality, we test our theories, and discover realms of possibilities, as well as probabilities of possibillities.
No interpretation of the nature of reality is an island unto itself, and this is why, through discussion, through critical assessment of interpretations of reality, we can determine if some interpretations of reality are more reflective of the nature of reality than others. Like a bat sending out signals of echolocation and receiving a response from reality, by which the bat determines the nature of reality, in order to most effectively navigate reality, so similarily do humans come to understand reality. Making a grand stand that no perspective of reality can be "proven" belies the nature of reality. It is a maneuver seeking to call out stalemate, when stalemate in such a matter is impossible.
Some interpretations of the nature of reality have no reflection in reality, or their reflection is actually a misconception, better predicted by another, more accurate interpretation of reality. Through critical discussion, perspectives of reality evolve, as interpretations of reality interact with others, generating a light of awareness, intelligence, that dissolves aspects of these interpretations that do not reflect the nature of reality as it presents itself to be. Being a mirror of reality = the most reflective perspective of reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Great post.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Quote:
Technology, for example, is the greatest example of human beings making observations, forming theories as to the nature of reality, and then making predictions and testing reality, in order to determine if their understanding of reality is reflective of the actual nature of reality.
Yes, technology IS wonderful.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes, technology IS wonderful.
It certainly is, but only to the threshold of pitchforks, hand-powered butter churns, wooden wagon wheels, ropes for raising wooden barns....
You tease.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
You tease.
You love it though...  And I love teasing you
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing. I want proof that the books you have read are facts. I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.
If you are willing to do the investigative work you can confirm an answer to your questions. What's your point? That proof is worthless? Go to the Mysticism forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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elcharrosays
Stranger



Registered: 08/25/07
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said: A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
If that is the entirety of what your opinion on wikipedia is based upon, I'd have to state that your opinion isn't resting upon a good foundation. The content editing system makes it so that changed information is reviewed, and there are clearly a lot of dedicated individuals, much much more so than people like your personal friend, who ensure that information is accurate. In fact, I've read that scientific studies have determined that Wikipedia is more accurate than online versions of encyclopedias.
As with any source, it is to be taken as one perspective, and further research is advisable, but clearly Wikipedia is a great resource.
Nature.org conducted a study that concluded Wikipedia was slightly less accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica. (Wikipedia had around 160 errors, the Encyclopedia Britannica contained about 135.)
That study was back in 2005, though. I'm sure wikipedia has become much more accurate since then.
actually its probably the other way around
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FocusHawaii
Keeper of theMagic Garden

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 1,013
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said:
Quote:
FocusHawaii said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiger-Marsden_experiment
A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
Get a general chemistry textbook then. The gold foil experiment was a revolution in atomic thinking.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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I agree with you walter, i think one of the concepts people find hardest to accept is that we dont know anything for sure. I think claiming we do is an attempt to make a solid reality out of something which is actually intangible and confusing. I think for a race of people who dont understand the basic idea of how this universe came to be, or even what it is, we're very arrogant for dismissing other peoples ideas out of hand and claiming our theories to be correct and beyond questioning. So dont worry, your not alone
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing. I want proof that the books you have read are facts. I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.
What kind of proof are YOU looking for in these demands....?  Visual, scientific data, a vote, faith, experiments, what....?
What would it take for you to believe in an atom yourself....? If you have a specific answer for this question, you are not genuinely looking for "proof"....
Quote:
InnerStillness said: Now on the other hand for something to exist separate and in its own right without the support of parts (to exist inherently in its own right) isn't possible. Take an atom for instance, if we try to find an atom which exist in its own right we fail. An atom is a combination of smaller forces, it is a collection of parts, we put a label on this whole and call it an atom. So in this respect the atom exist only as a concept and cant exist without the thought "atom".
Yes....  Our visual understanding of atoms are conceptual models based upon the statistical observations of tests performed on matter....
Walter, no one knows what an atom looks like in it's actual "structure".... The visual model is a scientific-artistic extrapolated approximation based on the interpretation of evidence of said atoms....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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If proof and absolute proof meant the same thing, we wouldn't need the phrase "absolute proof". Proofs of provable things are all around us. You have no real proof of God, and that is why you are exasperated. You express frustration with others, but you are really experiencing frustration with yourself. You don't think others have self made opinions because you fear you don't have self made opinions.
Do you have doubt? If so, just like the people who question your beliefs, you will continue to want proof. You will torture yourself with the question, while outwardly expressing calm self-assured resolve. In some of Mother Teresa's last letters, she describes her ENTIRE adult life as a dark night of the soul. She was tortured until her last days. This is what you are in for.
Of course, if people would just shut up and quit asking for proof, it might be a little easier. Can't we all just line up and sway along to the music?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Rahz]
#7529971 - 10/18/07 02:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good post Rahz. Its funny, the only peace and truth i have ever experienced is when ive stopped looking for it, and just observed with a humble and relaxed state of mind, like in meditation or a psychedelic experience or the feeling of love. Now i try to keep this frame of mind in my everyday life and i have made so much progress.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 639
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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I sincerely apologize for my attitude things have been hard for me of late I am very sorry for anyone who was offended by my obtuse behavior. I cannot continue this argument nor continue on this duologue due to my crippled lifestyle. Again I am very sorry.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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No problem. Take care of whatever is wrong as best you can. You are the only one who can. Then come back and fuck with us some more.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: How does the fact that atoms exist make atoms exist?? I have never seen an atom. And if you have maybe it was a spec in the microcope? Maybe a spore didn't get washed off. what if I was made of something else? Atoms? really? Who has seen one? If you know you must have read it in a book must be a fact? or not?
I was just talking about this somewhere...

There...now you have "seen" atoms...in specific, atoms of silicon arranged in a crystal lattice.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: trendal]
#7534972 - 10/19/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Those are just specks of dust that you painted green and arranged in an orderly fashion. You can't fool us.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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