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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: (example) Ok for your sake I will tell you God and Jesus exist they love you and care about you and if you believe in them you will be happy and nothing will every destroy your soul your life might be hard but your reward will be full in an afterlife..
Now tell me do you believe this?
Or should I prove it?
this is might point.
DONT ASK ME FOR PROOF AND I WONT ASK YOU.
Um, perhaps you should read the forum rules and guidelines, stickied at the top of this forum. This forum is specifically intended for critical discussion of the ideas and perspectives presented in this forum. If you post your example in this forum, it is to be expected that people will question the validity of the statement.
For the sake of clarity, allow me to quote the forum rules and guidelines:
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If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.
If you are in any way dissatisfied with the manners in which others choose to respond to your presented point of view, take solace in the fact that your intention in using the forum is not the intention of the forum, and that the Shroomery provides an alternate forum, in which this manner of discussion is not permitted. Feel free to visit Mysticism and the Paranormal if this be the case.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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InnerStillness
<3 U


Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 91
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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I think first we need to agree on a definition on what it means to exist. For something to exist it needs to have effects, this is the definition that I'm going to work with. Take an atom for example, we know that they exist because they are what make able the structure of our physical universe, the keyboard we are typing with is composed of atoms, molecules, compounds and shapes. We are able to see the effects of atoms so they exist in some manner. If an atom didn't exist then typing and seeing thoughts and concepts expressed onto this medium would be impossible.
Now on the other hand for something to exist separate and in its own right without the support of parts (to exist inherently in its own right) isn't possible. Take an atom for instance, if we try to find an atom which exist in its own right we fail. An atom is a combination of smaller forces, it is a collection of parts, we put a label on this whole and call it an atom. So in this respect the atom exist only as a concept and cant exist without the thought "atom". Or take the keyboard in front of you, at first glance it seems very solid and seems to exist in its own right. Upon further investigation of this "keyboard" we come to realize it is a sum of parts called keys, the plastic molding holding those keys, the cord plugging it into the computer, suddenly the "keyboard" no longer exists in its own right separate from everything.
In this way there is not anything which exist inherently in its own right, everything exist conceptually, atom is a concept; keyboard is a concept. So trying to prove that something exist is curious, but trying to see how it exist seems much more beneficial. God is a concept which we put on something we deem higher than ourself, but this is still a concept, and God exist beyond concepts, which is a concept.
PS. IDK I felt this post was kinda meandering and though I would add my 2c, allot of this post is inspired by the Dalai Lama's book How to See Yourself As You Truly Are
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I have yet to hear someone prove to me without a doubt atoms exist.
They have been determined to exist, in that the theory of their existance has predictive power. Human beings make observations, and then they form theories, and then they test their theories.
Technology, for example, is the greatest example of human beings making observations, forming theories as to the nature of reality, and then making predictions and testing reality, in order to determine if their understanding of reality is reflective of the actual nature of reality.
Now, considering that you are utilizing a computer to interact with us through the internet (it is a reasonable conclusion that you are a human being that is engaging in such activity, although we cannot conclusively determine it, although it is possible, especially for the American government ), I think it stands that our theory of the existance of atoms has predictive power. If it didn't, no computer, no incessant demanding for no shadow of a doubt proof.
Now, wonder why I bolded theory so much? Because human understanding exists only as theory. True certainty regarding the nature of reality is impossible. However, as we are capable of forming theories regarding the nature of reality, and through interaction with and observation of reality, we test our theories, and discover realms of possibilities, as well as probabilities of possibillities.
No interpretation of the nature of reality is an island unto itself, and this is why, through discussion, through critical assessment of interpretations of reality, we can determine if some interpretations of reality are more reflective of the nature of reality than others. Like a bat sending out signals of echolocation and receiving a response from reality, by which the bat determines the nature of reality, in order to most effectively navigate reality, so similarily do humans come to understand reality. Making a grand stand that no perspective of reality can be "proven" belies the nature of reality. It is a maneuver seeking to call out stalemate, when stalemate in such a matter is impossible.
Some interpretations of the nature of reality have no reflection in reality, or their reflection is actually a misconception, better predicted by another, more accurate interpretation of reality. Through critical discussion, perspectives of reality evolve, as interpretations of reality interact with others, generating a light of awareness, intelligence, that dissolves aspects of these interpretations that do not reflect the nature of reality as it presents itself to be. Being a mirror of reality = the most reflective perspective of reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Great post.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
Technology, for example, is the greatest example of human beings making observations, forming theories as to the nature of reality, and then making predictions and testing reality, in order to determine if their understanding of reality is reflective of the actual nature of reality.
Yes, technology IS wonderful.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes, technology IS wonderful.
It certainly is, but only to the threshold of pitchforks, hand-powered butter churns, wooden wagon wheels, ropes for raising wooden barns....
You tease.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
You tease.
You love it though...  And I love teasing you
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing. I want proof that the books you have read are facts. I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.
If you are willing to do the investigative work you can confirm an answer to your questions. What's your point? That proof is worthless? Go to the Mysticism forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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elcharrosays
Stranger



Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 1,503
Loc: south east
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
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MushmanTheManic said:
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fireworks_god said:
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Walter1496211 said: A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
If that is the entirety of what your opinion on wikipedia is based upon, I'd have to state that your opinion isn't resting upon a good foundation. The content editing system makes it so that changed information is reviewed, and there are clearly a lot of dedicated individuals, much much more so than people like your personal friend, who ensure that information is accurate. In fact, I've read that scientific studies have determined that Wikipedia is more accurate than online versions of encyclopedias.
As with any source, it is to be taken as one perspective, and further research is advisable, but clearly Wikipedia is a great resource.
Nature.org conducted a study that concluded Wikipedia was slightly less accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica. (Wikipedia had around 160 errors, the Encyclopedia Britannica contained about 135.)
That study was back in 2005, though. I'm sure wikipedia has become much more accurate since then.
actually its probably the other way around
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FocusHawaii
Keeper of theMagic Garden

Registered: 12/27/02
Posts: 1,013
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Walter1496211 said:
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FocusHawaii said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geiger-Marsden_experiment
A personal friend of mine spent an entire six hours of his life falsifying information on wikipedia not a very good source IMO.
Get a general chemistry textbook then. The gold foil experiment was a revolution in atomic thinking.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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I agree with you walter, i think one of the concepts people find hardest to accept is that we dont know anything for sure. I think claiming we do is an attempt to make a solid reality out of something which is actually intangible and confusing. I think for a race of people who dont understand the basic idea of how this universe came to be, or even what it is, we're very arrogant for dismissing other peoples ideas out of hand and claiming our theories to be correct and beyond questioning. So dont worry, your not alone
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I want proof that you have a computer.. I want proof that atoms exist. I want proof that if your eyes have seen it my eyes are the same as yours and can see the same thing. I want proof that the books you have read are facts. I want proof that the opinions you hold are your own from birth and most of all I want proof that your opinion is true to anyone else but you.
What kind of proof are YOU looking for in these demands....?  Visual, scientific data, a vote, faith, experiments, what....?
What would it take for you to believe in an atom yourself....? If you have a specific answer for this question, you are not genuinely looking for "proof"....
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InnerStillness said: Now on the other hand for something to exist separate and in its own right without the support of parts (to exist inherently in its own right) isn't possible. Take an atom for instance, if we try to find an atom which exist in its own right we fail. An atom is a combination of smaller forces, it is a collection of parts, we put a label on this whole and call it an atom. So in this respect the atom exist only as a concept and cant exist without the thought "atom".
Yes....  Our visual understanding of atoms are conceptual models based upon the statistical observations of tests performed on matter....
Walter, no one knows what an atom looks like in it's actual "structure".... The visual model is a scientific-artistic extrapolated approximation based on the interpretation of evidence of said atoms....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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If proof and absolute proof meant the same thing, we wouldn't need the phrase "absolute proof". Proofs of provable things are all around us. You have no real proof of God, and that is why you are exasperated. You express frustration with others, but you are really experiencing frustration with yourself. You don't think others have self made opinions because you fear you don't have self made opinions.
Do you have doubt? If so, just like the people who question your beliefs, you will continue to want proof. You will torture yourself with the question, while outwardly expressing calm self-assured resolve. In some of Mother Teresa's last letters, she describes her ENTIRE adult life as a dark night of the soul. She was tortured until her last days. This is what you are in for.
Of course, if people would just shut up and quit asking for proof, it might be a little easier. Can't we all just line up and sway along to the music?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: Rahz]
#7529971 - 10/18/07 02:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good post Rahz. Its funny, the only peace and truth i have ever experienced is when ive stopped looking for it, and just observed with a humble and relaxed state of mind, like in meditation or a psychedelic experience or the feeling of love. Now i try to keep this frame of mind in my everyday life and i have made so much progress.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



Registered: 09/09/07
Posts: 639
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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I sincerely apologize for my attitude things have been hard for me of late I am very sorry for anyone who was offended by my obtuse behavior. I cannot continue this argument nor continue on this duologue due to my crippled lifestyle. Again I am very sorry.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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No problem. Take care of whatever is wrong as best you can. You are the only one who can. Then come back and fuck with us some more.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: How does the fact that atoms exist make atoms exist?? I have never seen an atom. And if you have maybe it was a spec in the microcope? Maybe a spore didn't get washed off. what if I was made of something else? Atoms? really? Who has seen one? If you know you must have read it in a book must be a fact? or not?
I was just talking about this somewhere...

There...now you have "seen" atoms...in specific, atoms of silicon arranged in a crystal lattice.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: I want proof.. [Re: trendal]
#7534972 - 10/19/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Those are just specks of dust that you painted green and arranged in an orderly fashion. You can't fool us.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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