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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Renounce, enjoy, neither?
    #5870536 -

This plagues me.

I assume we are here of our own merits, in human heaven's "middle class".

Food, shelter, entertainment.

So what keeps haunting me is...... we have so much (and yet it is shrouded in suffering too, so much of it it is hard to even feel like we are "privelaged") and yet some have so so so little.

i mean to us hell might be having the AC broken for a few days or like, failing college or something.

to other people they are in survival mode... never really sure what will happen the next day. if they will find food.

are we here to learn a lesson that material living is actually NOT what we want.... are we meant to give up and renounce evertyhing, and work for serving our fellow man.

or are we here to feel okay about being here... is it okay to have air conditioning and a car, and potato chips, and cookies...... and movies....

just that while you have them, you should still realize the juxtaposition between haves and have nots.... and should still work on being spiritual.

is this a hell in disguise, a trap, the MATRIX saying, play with me more and more.... you are losing everything by indulging so much.

is it just, simply, what we make of it? Maybe no absolutes.... maybe, if you wanna live here and be a good American, that's fine.... no really bad karma, but maybe a less fortunate human life if you don't give to charities, etc.... work on giving some of it back.

and if you wanna go ascetic and throw out your posessions..... you can do that too, and go through poverty while rich, and go even higher?

I mean I feel so guilty like... I've been ridiculously spoiled and it's given me a lense similar to the Buddha (not to be blasphemous) that I just take one look at even the GOOD things in the real world and I'm like "mannnn this is a terrible place"

Working? Why work..... why not be a monk? I don't know..... working is just suffering. You only need to work if you want to be a consumerist, right?

and I mean.... I look at the basic life functions and I really can't help but keep seeing the first noble truth even in heaven's middle class.

to me living should either be figured out to where people didn't have to work zombie jobs, but still lived like average Americans...... or we should go back to simpler more agrarian times, where the work we do is rewarding, and the fruits of it directly understood, yet.... we have enough of a secure society rooted in technology to not have to worry much about society.

right now being an office drone, or doing repetetive manual labor... it seems lifeless..... at least if you did manual labor in an agrarian society it would be for YOU and YOUR PEOPLE that you CARED ABOUT because you all lived close knit

but you know, let's build a stadium for yuppies... seems pretty souless...... I dunno.

There is a good career out there somewhere... in fact many good ones...... it's really what you want to do and just suck up and do it even if it doesn't pay well.

But I want to be free. Is there a job in being free? Or is the end result shaving your head and wearing a robe? It's not out of the question.

But man, the guilt of having. Is it okay to have what we have? I like potato chips, cookies, etc..... but I know they mean nothing in the long run.

it's like to be happy in America you either need to be rich, or you need to be voluntarily poor. the middle class is just left craving and wanting the freedom and flexibility to fly around in jets, go visit Amsterdam, lounge by the pool, etc.....

and they probably won't ever get it, but they keep working so so hard for it anyway.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/17/06 07:15 PM)

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: leery11]
    #5871409 -

is "pain" real? if so what is "real"? if pain isn't real and joy isn't either we make it up as we go along. like a sick joke. People have to aquire a taste to things, like working everyday long hours. They become machines. You aquire stable things to contrast such as "potato chips" to give you a sence of comfort. many starving people in india don't know that they are suffering(concluded by the fact that they know nothing else). The only reason they could define themselves as "suffering" was if they could see the other side of the fence, something greener. that is why many people believe in god.

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: Nehl]
    #5872485 -

your illustration would be better if you used poor people instead of starving.

i can't help but think they know something is wrong if they don't have any food whatsoever.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: leery11]
    #5874138 -

I don't believe in working for the sake of working...........working should always be purposeful and personal...........it should entail interests and a constant path of progression, repetition is the worst form of work, the mind need to discover in reducing repetition, repetition is a function that can be automated by machines.........any repetitive act needs greater level of awareness to reduce its mindless involvment towards ones life, always be thinking of improving work quality,........to start of f humble........then naturally progress towards a purposeful cause

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: leery11]
    #5874201 -

The only thing to renounce is attachment. Its perfectly ok to relax and enjoy this dream world fully.

Just try not to be fooled by its limiteless appearences by continually reminding youself of its impermenant and illusory nature. Pleasant, unpleasant experiences, good and bad considerations are all just descriptions. Whilst they have some function on the relative level, (so long as being belive in them), ultimately they do not posses any independent objective reality whatsoever.

Remain in a relaxed way as much as possible, beyond hope and fear always opening with some compassion for those who do not know how it is.  :sun:


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Edited by Sinbad (07/18/06 05:19 PM)

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: Sinbad]
    #5874806 -

Sinbad said:
The only thing to renounce is attachment. Its perfectly ok to relax and enjoy this dream world fully.


yes yes

Sinbad said:
Just try not to be fooled by its limiteless appearences by continually reminding youself of its impermenant and illusory nature....

here I disagree,
this reminding your self is just rote
It doesn't show that you understand the words yet you are capable of hammering a temporary effect from them by repetition.

I don't think that helps. soon the power fades - especially if you see the folly of acting wise without the light actually on.

the benefit comes not by rote, but with seeing illusion operating - it comes in understanding the associative mind, and seeing the moment to moment movie of self operating; especially in context with the integral store of (associatively organized) memories, and ongoing creation that we are part of.

repetition and rote are most likely tiny souvenirs of someone else's enlightenment or of a forgotten insight. (i.e. just a ritual)

we each need to expand our own natural enlightenment by observation, by seeing.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5877988 -

I think sometimes, in everyday life we do often lose our presence and forget that everything really is like a dream. In such cases sometimes its important to relax and take a little time to remind ourselves of the dreamlike qualities of our dimension.

Even if we do only relax and observe for 3 minutes, maybe 5 times a day, it has the benefit of creating a positive habit of relaxation and recognition, which is a much better situation for developing our capacity of presence and awareness in everyday life.

Since human beings are generally creatures of repeatition, its very useful to apply our own ingrained habitual patterns as skillfull means. In this way our new habit of recognising reality can function to free ourselves from unrealistic, deluded misunderstandings about our condition.


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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: Sinbad]
    #5878714 -

yes again skillful means to meditation BUT
no for repetition of what you have been told to repeat especially as the context may not be suitable.
leave insights to actual insight.

real enlightnment is better cause it's real.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5880388 -

Quote:
here I disagree,
this reminding your self is just rote
It doesn't show that you understand the words yet you are capable of hammering a temporary effect from them by repetition.

I don't think that helps. soon the power fades - especially if you see the folly of acting wise without the light actually on.

the benefit comes not by rote, but with seeing illusion operating - it comes in understanding the associative mind, and seeing the moment to moment movie of self operating; especially in context with the integral store of (associatively organized) memories, and ongoing creation that we are part of.

repetition and rote are most likely tiny souvenirs of someone else's enlightenment or of a forgotten insight. (i.e. just a ritual)

we each need to expand our own natural enlightenment by observation, by seeing.


renounce your attachment to catch phrases/dead words :thumbup:

one possible way to accomplish this is through a method known as Tapasya, where one would  pose themselves with an inner struggle - perhaps remaining silent for a few hours a day would be effective in this instance.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5883596 -

redgreenvines said:
yes again skillful means to meditation BUT
no for repetition of what you have been told to repeat especially as the context may not be suitable.

leave insights to actual insight.

real enlightnment is better cause it's real.


The repeatition of recognision IS the skillfull means to meditation. Insight happens naturally as a result. There is no "real" enlightenment anymore than there is a "real" shroomery. :lol:


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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: leery11]
    #5883831 -

In my life, I have renounced many pleasures, and enjoyed many pleasures.

Its all about balance, and the consideration of others.

I have renounced pleasures if I felt that the effects of those pleasures might be negative to those around me, or cause undue suffering of the innocent.

I have turned down money, power, and women, because I didn't like the strings attached to these things.

But I try to draw the line at self-deprecation. I try to realize that I am entitled to some pleasures. Just not all the pleasures that Satan and his hedonist influence would have me believe I am entitled to.

So yes, I enjoy, to a certain extent. I enjoy what I have earned. But I refuse to enjoy what i have not earned, what has been unjustly taken from others, and placed in my lap. I renounce the matrix, for I know that beneath it lies a network of human slaves.

like i said, its all about balance. You can't deny yourself everything, but you can't indulge at the expense of others either.

So I say, have as much fun as you can, take care of yourself, but don't forget about the work that needs to be put in, the injustices and inhumanities in the world that you can exert influence against.

like all things, its not a binary choice, but rather a spectrum that you must try to stay in the middle of.

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5883840 -

you are talking about how you treat your own karma - you are judging yourself, ok.

sinbad is talking about how he does not really understand what illusion is, and he is taking us along for the ride because he likes us which I think is very kind (the confusion is a lubricant).

I am very picky, my stomache is bothering me - going out for seltzer


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5884598 -

Red man, i dont know how many lines your trying to read between, but I'm not talking about that at all. :lol:

That might just be your judgment layering your perceptions and taking you along for a ride, which brings up yet another good point about how illusion can be.

But of course, its always useful that we have our illusory medicine to cure our illusory stomach aches.  :grin:


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Edited by Sinbad (07/21/06 04:08 PM)

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: Sinbad]
    #5886740 -

ok, define illusion any way you like.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5886886 -

I agree with you that the path of seeing is more direct. But i don't think many people can have that direct experience of seeing the nature of reality, as it is, without first training in continually reminding ourselves to notice how things are. This gradual training, as i described before, lays the foundation (creates the causes) for our realization.

Our own natural enlightenment is usually always obscured by the clouds of our disturbing emotions, so recognizing the dreamlike qualities of our dimension helps to reduce this emotional reactivity so we can see more clearly how things are. The rote of repetition is thus a necessary prerequisite to seeing how things are.


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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: Sinbad]
    #5886974 -

initially you may notice an artifact at the corner of your attention
- nothing to worry about - you are too busy busy making filters for reality and at the edges, your exhausted mind may detect a movement that you cannot bother to wrap up in your philosophy.

from this unaltered fragment of experience you will learn that your laborious repetition of souvenirs (from other people experiences) has become your personal body of delusion, and what you never had time or energy to reshape, is reality unfolding on its own which you desperately seek.

this is the method of mahayana buddhism.
exhaust and befuddle the student till all that is left is enlightenment.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5887013 -

"from this unaltered fragment of experience you will learn that your laborious repetition of souvenirs (from other people experiences) has become your personal body of delusion, and what you never had time or energy to reshape, is reality unfolding on its own which you desperately seek."

It always amazes me how you feel you can make such sweeping judgmental statements such as the one above and still think you are retaining any  sense of truth in your words. Its absolutely ridiculous. :crazy: :thumbdown:


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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5887016 -

"If you lose the spirit of repetition, your practice will become quite difficult" - Shunryu Suzuki


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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: Sinbad]
    #5887018 -

I know that, tathagato.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Renounce, enjoy, neither? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5887460 -

redgreenvines said:
yes again skillful means to meditation BUT
no for repetition of what you have been told to repeat especially as the context may not be suitable.
leave insights to actual insight.



I havent been told to repeat anything, i just feel that in order for practice of any kind to become actualized, repeatition is a nessasery requirement.  :grin:

Clear now?  :smirk:


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Edited by Sinbad (07/22/06 01:04 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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