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InvisibleSclorch
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Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur?
    #1479733 - 04/21/03 07:25 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)

Well, this is always coming up here...

"When you take a psychedelic, you'll see god/become one with god/realize that you're god... etc."
Assuming we all have experienced something like this while under the influence of an entheogen, how are we supposed to know if it is real or merely an illusion? In other words, is it POSSIBLE that (when such a thing occurs) entheogens merely steer the brain into illusory thought cycles?
*Gasp*
*shocked*
*appalled*
"BLASPHEMY!!!"

whoa... slow down there, amigo.

What evidence (non-subjective) do you have that such "divine" experiences are rooted in reality at all? Is it practical, non-subjective (i.e. objective) evidence that you can share with the rest of the class? Doubtful. So why do we (well, some of us) make such assumptions that what we've just experienced was communication with the LOGOS?

I think it is insecurity... but that's just me.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1479777 - 04/21/03 07:41 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

What evidence (non-subjective) do you have that such "divine" experiences are rooted in reality at all?




The evidence is that people take wisdom out of the experience and apply it to life. If the experience were completely random, I would agree, but it is not. There is a common thread to the majority of experiences as reported by trippers. Religion has roots in psychedelic plants: is it all bullshit, or is there something we can't quite figure out yet? I like the second choice.

When I meet another human, I dont wonder if that human is really alive. I never declared allegiance to scientific literature to figure that out what is alive and what isn't. Same holds true with mushrooms, being unable to prove a negative, how can you be so sure that there is nothing there? If I experienced it, then it is a fact to me that it happened. Even though it is the delusional interaction of my brain with psilocin, it still is something alive, not exactly the normal self. Nothing less than an occurence in reality.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: pattern]
    #1479786 - 04/21/03 07:44 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)

The experiences are only delusions when you take them for real as oppose to a model of reality. This is why some people are enlightened buddhas, and some people are schizophrenics.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1479884 - 04/21/03 08:17 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)

> The experiences are only delusions when you take them for real as oppose to a model of reality.

Those sound dangerously close to the same thing.

> This is why some people are enlightened buddhas, and some people are schizophrenics.

Why should anyone believe that?

Maybe there are enlightened buddhas who have a different opinion.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: pattern]
    #1480408 - 04/21/03 11:08 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)




The evidence is that people take wisdom out of the experience and apply it to life. If the experience were completely random, I would agree, but it is not. There is a common thread to the majority of experiences as reported by trippers.




Or could it be that people just associate shrooming with enlightment and religion and what not that its just what people expect of there trip? Not all trips are like that, they are 'random' in the way trips are unpredictable...Its sorta like a dream, some people believe dreams are messages and others believe dreams are just illusions the brain puts together from old memories. I think a trip is what you want it to be,if you want to be 'spiritualy awakened', you will be..if you wanna just see shit and be happy for a few hours,you will. I think psychadelics are what we make them.


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1480476 - 04/21/03 11:28 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)

> Or could it be that people just associate shrooming with enlightment and religion and what not that its just what people expect of there trip?

Most of them expect that for a good reason, and that reason is because it happens often. On the other hand, I don't expect to have a psychedelic experience when I eat french fries, but I know they're gonna taste like a potato. Spirituality, enlightenment, religion, delusions, etc, they are all traits attributed to mushrooms throughout history.

> Not all trips are like that, they are 'random' in the way trips are unpredictable...

I disagree, because there are different trip effects due to different drugs. If it were random, then you could get an acid trip from mushrooms, and vice versa.

> I think a trip is what you want it to be,if you want to be 'spiritualy awakened', you will be..if you wanna just see shit and be happy for a few hours,you will. I think psychadelics are what we make them.

Well said. The people taking the psychedelics are always the most important part of the equation. Fitting that into my framework: they are a tool that can be used for a goal, in this case spiritual awakening. Mushrooms are one of the best tools. It has another function: to see shit and be happy, but a tool can have more than one function.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: pattern]
    #1480481 - 04/21/03 11:30 PM (18 years, 30 days ago)

Maybe I should have elaborated more...

The brain is a pattern recognition system. When a shitload of stimuli is thrown at it, the brain frantically tries to make sense of it all. I posit that the "all is one" meme that is often born from the chaotic stimuli of a psychedelic dose is merely an illusion created by the brain in order to explain away the randomness. "It's too complicated for a sober mind to comprehend..." I don't think so. I've been through the "all is one" kick many times... though I have not received "divine knowledge" every time I've tripped. This is why I am led to think that it is merely a shortcut our minds employ in order to stay afloat in the sensory overload.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1480632 - 04/22/03 12:14 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

> The brain is a pattern recognition system.

Its true: you recognized me!

Quote:


When a shitload of stimuli is thrown at it, the brain frantically tries to make sense of it all. I posit that the "all is one" meme that is often born from the chaotic stimuli of a psychedelic dose is merely an illusion created by the brain in order to explain away the randomness.





On the other hand one could argue: the brain is noticing a pattern in the randomness, and forming a meme from it.

Quote:

"It's too complicated for a sober mind to comprehend..." I don't think so. I've been through the "all is one" kick many times... though I have not received "divine knowledge" every time I've tripped. This is why I am led to think that it is merely a shortcut our minds employ in order to stay afloat in the sensory overload.




I use the excuse: "Its too complicated and long for the mind to remember". If the all-in-one concept helps people stay afloat in the sensory overload, then the concept has potential, but thinking about it affects the experience.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1480787 - 04/22/03 01:05 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

In other words, is it POSSIBLE that (when such a thing occurs) entheogens merely steer the brain into illusory thought cycles?





Yes, shrooms can definitely do this. But I don?t think the ?oneness with God? perspective is illusory, or less accurate than the typical western view of reality.


Quote:

What evidence (non-subjective) do you have that such "divine" experiences are rooted in reality at all? Is it practical, non-subjective (i.e. objective) evidence that you can share with the rest of the class? Doubtful. So why do we (well, some of us) make such assumptions that what we've just experienced was communication with the LOGOS?





Well we first have to know what ?real? reality is before we go a judge whether a perspective is closer or farther away from it. Or we can use the pragmatic approach (which I am warming up to) and ask which is the most useful theory or conception of reality- another way of stating this is which theory accounts best for the available data. I think shrooms have the potential to show us a more useful way of experiencing.

When I shroom, I find it much easier to take the very eastern religious perspective that all ?things? are ultimately dependent on a countless number of conditions for their ?existence,? that all things are in a constant state of flux (something I know intellectually, but do not incorporate into my default view of things in general), that we can only know things relative to what they are not, ultimately bringing into question my whole conception of things and "being" in general. I also realize that most of the shit I worry about is absolutely trivial relative to the ?big picture.? Yes my preconceptions have an effect on my shrooming experiences, but like somebody said earlier, these drugs have been known to induce such thinking in people for a long time now.

I think that this perspective accounts for experience much better than the typical western conception of reality. Again, it is one thing to intellectually know this ?we are all one? perspective, but to feel it and experience it is something entirely different. Feeling it and acting on it is what I get when I shroom.

Quote:

I think it is insecurity... but that's just me.




I think the ?we are all one? view does result in a reduction of insecurity, but not because it is providing an escape from the ?real? perspective- rather, it is a release from the inherently angst-ridden western way of experiencing that is in fact less accurate.



--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: buttonion]
    #1480895 - 04/22/03 01:37 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

I find the answer is very simple for myself. There's no way to tell for sure what is real and what is not, in everyday life, tripping, or otherwise, so i just go with what feels most real to my soul. And more often than not, the divine experience had during a trip feels much more real to me than my Normal waking consciousness. It feels like i'm home again when i trip. This idea is definitely not rooted in scientific evidence or anything, but it's enough for me. And who's to say that there's anything that scientific rationalism can tell us about the ture nature of a trip? It seems to me tripping holds a spiritual and divine aspect that modern science is blind to, disqualifying it from being able to peg what is going on. If you look at it with scientific rationality in mind, you only see part of the picture.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1481158 - 04/22/03 02:52 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

"In other words, is it POSSIBLE that (when such a thing occurs) entheogens merely steer the brain into illusory thought cycles?"

Yes, it is. I think thats just as fascinating as the possibility that they unplug you from the metaphorical "Matrix" and allow you to "see god" or whatever..

Either way, these psychedelic realms (internal or external) should be explored and if possible, mapped.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1481665 - 04/22/03 08:43 AM (18 years, 30 days ago)

If the experience is real or not that does not remove that the experience is a very profound one for the experiencer.
The heaviest trip i had was on mushrooms where I felt as though I was going to leave my body behind and go to another place. This place felt like home. The place where i am really from. As the trip progressed I felt like I was dying and I had to preapre my body as I was about to leave it. These instincs were very strong, as though written in my soul. stronger instincts than any you could feel in your sober body. All this time I felt as though I was getting close to something, the closer i got the more confusing it got, yet the more profound. I was getting close to the truth.

anyway, i didnt make the full experience. and as though I felt something very real I don't know if it was.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482480 - 04/22/03 03:21 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

So all who say psychadelics in general,shrooms specifically, 'show you the truth' or free your mind to the 'reality'...What do you say our sober lives are? A false reality?


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1482500 - 04/22/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

I don't think you can say that this is a false reality. Even though many do, and I understand their arguments for that. It seems real eneough to me so id say it is real. I thik it's one of the ultimate questions for me anyway, and at the moment i'm going with it being real.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482502 - 04/22/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Just because we can't see the whole picture from this POV does not mean it is not real.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482516 - 04/22/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Here is my take, please think about this.


Many divine insight comes from psychedelics, as well as meditation, and other spiritual practices like fasting and prayer.


NONE of these can be proven, and that is because, like great spiritual gurus will tell you - Perception, reality, enlightenment etc are ALL products of the mind.

Our mind loves to label , judge , and seperate things - but when we can go behind the minds hold on ourselfs, we can not visually, but mentally understand that it is our mind that seperates reality, not reality itself.

Sclorch, I find it interesting that you take the skeptical, scientific approach to understanding spirituality, but that is a contradiction in itself, which is why this question you asked, was asked.

Science strives to measure and label everything, and dismisses any piece of information it "gets" if it doesnt fit into the structural labeling and measurement factor. Science disbelieves in things that cant be measured usually our own limited senses and the technological extensions of them.


To go beyond this, that is something different. To see the patterns of your mind, and then break free - not biasing your views on measurements but rather feeling, this is a spiritual , intuition like knowledge - that is NO less factual than the measured knowledge of science. Both can be incorrect, both can help and change humanity. BUT, you cant really combine the both. Which is what Im trying to stress.


You can either look at something scientifically, or FEEL it for yourself.






Enlightenment is of the mind, and so is percpeption and reality. So what mushrooms does is brings about different views, different insight, even temporary enlightenment. Is this real?? Depends, do you consider your mind to be real?


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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482602 - 04/22/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Either way, whether you believe our sober lives are a false reality or not...this is reality because its all we've known or will ever know w/o the use of drugs. So this is reality in the sense that its the level our minds operate on...if you know what im saying. Meditation is a way of exploring your mind while in 'reality'. Using psychadelics can make you believe that you have a higher understanding, but could easily be an illusion. I would lean more torwards meditation and deep thought as a way of understanding 'reality' and our own minds. Psychadelics are definetly fun, and can raise many questions, but if you change the way the brain functions, your no longer in 'reality'. Hope ya know what i mean....


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1482648 - 04/22/03 04:17 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Theres a difference between changing the way the brain functions, and then noticing and going passed the habits of our brain


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482720 - 04/22/03 04:30 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Many divine insight comes from psychedelics, as well as meditation, and other spiritual practices like fasting and prayer.
NONE of these can be proven, and that is because, like great spiritual gurus will tell you - Perception, reality, enlightenment etc are ALL products of the mind.


I disagree entirely... ALL of it can be proven, practically speaking. So, you've learned that "all is one"? Great, regardless of its truth


Sclorch, I find it interesting that you take the skeptical, scientific approach to understanding spirituality, but that is a contradiction in itself, which is why this question you asked, was asked.

HA!
What scientific approach? An idea? A thought?
Doesn't sound very scientific to me... no method at all.
Whatever...

You can't combine science with spirituality?
Okay, then I don't ever want to hear your approval of Zukav's "Dancing Wu-Li Masters" or Capra's "The Tao of Physics" or Strassman's "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" or ........


You can either look at something scientifically, or FEEL it for yourself.
You CAN look at something scientifically while at the same time experiencing it with raw feeling.


Enlightenment is of the mind, and so is percpeption and reality. So what mushrooms does is brings about different views, different insight, even temporary enlightenment. Is this real?? Depends, do you consider your mind to be real?

The word "enlightenment" has become the mantra of a new brand of genre elitism... I think it actually makes me physically ill. Shrooms don't transmit views or insight, and they definitely don't "enlighten"... I know many people that have taken shrooms and they've not come one step closer to this mystical "enlightenment". Psychedelics stimulate the brain.... it is up to the user to make something of the experience. As such, WE are responsible for what we think/feel/experience on psychedelics.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482744 - 04/22/03 04:34 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

supermarket: Theres a difference between changing the way the brain functions, and then noticing and going passed the habits of our brain

Could not the temporary feeling of "enlightenment" be a habitual cycle of the brain?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1482769 - 04/22/03 04:41 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

The idea of mushrooms not bringing about enlightenment is very "unenlightened" in itself.


You may think that you've stumbled upon someone who doesn't know what he talks about, but don't worry, you haven't.


Shrooms have, in every form and sense, brought about enlightenment within me. No, it did not last. No, I don't much remember the state. Yes, however, I am sure that I had reached an enlightened state MANY times over from mushrooms.


You seem to speak, or type in a hostile manner, can I ask why?



Anyway, enlightenment may not be what you think.

Enlightenment to me is freedom from your habitual patterns that the mind holds with almost everyone. Free from your own mind, innocent. As if seeing from a child eyes, yet thinking with a wise man's mind.


What do you view enlightenment as? Enlightenment contains loss of ego, which mushrooms definately bring about. Enlightenment contains freedom from habit mind, which psychedelics are known for.





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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482843 - 04/22/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Theres a difference between changing the way the brain functions, and then noticing and going passed the habits of our brain




I understand what you mean, but since psychadelics change the way the brain works, then just since you feel like youve 'gone past' the habits of your brain...doesnt mean its so. I mean I have thought about a lot of shit that makes sense on weed,lol, then when you come down you're like what the fuck was i talking about? lol, Im sure you've been there...Shrooms are much different but you see my point, since your brains function is changed, its impossible to judge whats 'real'.


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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OfflineSteelLynx
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1483034 - 04/22/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

To me it seems that reality is a direct product of having a brain, or that is to say that the way you percieve reality is due to the phyiosology/chemistry of your brain. Soo, when you trip and alter the way your brain works reality ( or your perception of reality, i'm not sure there a difference, or a meaningful one anyhow ) also changes. This new perception of reality is no more or less "real" or "valid" than the reality experienced by the sober brain.

I'm not entirely sure what the significance of this is to me, but i guess it shows me that one can't really know the "ultimate nature of reality", which is perhaps i valuable insight. Anyhow, i'm rambling and having a hard time writing clearly, heh.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1483176 - 04/22/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

There is no definate proof you fool. Otherwise there wouldn't be religions, cuz we'd all know (from proof) that there is or isn't something spiritual out there. Duh.

:tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleClosetCase
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1483312 - 04/22/03 07:27 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

I'd just like to add something to this whole "changes how your brain works" argument.

First off, your physical brain doesn't change, you just give it a different fuel. Think of your brain like a car's engine. Normal engines run off regular gasoline, but there are other fuels out there that would make your brain perform better, faster, without the thick cloudy exhaust. Now of course if you run these fuels all the time and at full throttle you are going to wear your engine out. But it's still the same engine, it's existence hasn't changed.

The "it could just be an illusion" is bunk if you ask me. Everything is real AND everything is an illusion. It's what you judge it to be. Remember, the universe is infinite, and something is connected everything, making it finite.


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1483342 - 04/22/03 07:35 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

I don't think of it as fuel, I consider it more like "booting up" under a different "operating system." This helps explain why its so hard to "convert" ideas from one state of mind to the other correctly.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/22/03 07:35 PM)


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InvisibleClosetCase
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1483355 - 04/22/03 07:39 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Exactly


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1483369 - 04/22/03 07:42 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

First off, your physical brain doesn't change, you just give it a different fuel.



You mean instead of glucose?

That's really not a good analogy. There are quite a different number of neurotransmitters affecting different brain systems, when we discuss the effects of most psychoactive substances this is usually what we are talking about. It's has much more to do with communications between the brain cells and systems than it does with fuel source. A better analogy might have something to do with telecommunications.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinejono
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1483508 - 04/22/03 08:21 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

I really like that analogy Strumpling! I think it encompasses the same opinion as mine nicely..

With Metta,
Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: jono]
    #1483566 - 04/22/03 08:38 PM (18 years, 29 days ago)

well Happy 69th post to you then :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSteelLynx
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1484490 - 04/23/03 12:11 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

Hmm, if its like your brain running a different operating system, it's still processing the same input, but interpretting it diferently ( more validly? less validly? does it matter ? ), I dunno, it's all pretty strange.

I was also wondering if revelations in dreams can tell you about the universe, or only about your own brain. Like, dreaming is sort of like tripping, except all the perceptions, or at least most of them are generated directly within the brain, so I guess I'm just posing "Are divine insights possible in the dream world"?


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It's the USER... not the tool. [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1485051 - 04/23/03 02:56 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

The idea of mushrooms not bringing about enlightenment is very "unenlightened" in itself.
Explain. I'm obviously an idiot.

You may think that you've stumbled upon someone who doesn't know what he talks about, but don't worry, you haven't.

It's good that you said "may"... otherwise I'd have a problem with you putting words in my mouth.

Shrooms have, in every form and sense, brought about enlightenment within me. No, it did not last. No, I don't much remember the state. Yes, however, I am sure that I had reached an enlightened state MANY times over from mushrooms.

Great. I've been there, too.... yeeha...
My point is, how do you KNOW that this feeling of enlightenment and whatnot isn't just a neural cascade that has been triggered (indirectly or directly) by whatever psychedelic you ingested?

The only way you can know is by what you take from your experience and how you apply it to your life. And, since not every person who has taken psychedelics (think: party drug people) has had these feelings of "enlightenment" and/or been able to apply this new way of thinking to their lives... then is it accurate to say that psychedelics INDUCE enlightenment?
I say no.

You seem to speak, or type in a hostile manner, can I ask why?
You can ask anything you like.
But seriously, I have no hostile intentions.... though you really shouldn't bother yourself about my intentions.

Anyway, enlightenment may not be what you think.
Enlightenment to me is freedom from your habitual patterns that the mind holds with almost everyone. Free from your own mind, innocent. As if seeing from a child eyes, yet thinking with a wise man's mind.


Yeah yeah yeah... I've read "Alan Watts for Dummies" too.
The proof is in the pudding. Show me yours if you like.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: It's the USER... not the tool. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1485100 - 04/23/03 03:36 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

okay, semantics alert!

what does "enlightenment" mean, please enlighten me, someone...please.

in my opinion, the idea of "enlightenment" is extremely unenlightened, unless of course...you prescribe to MY form of "enlightenment", then you dear sir...are..."enlightened".

totally off topic: the way westerners bastardize asian philosophy is almost as funny as the way easterners bastardize hiphop and punk rock.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: SteelLynx]
    #1485104 - 04/23/03 03:40 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

"Hmm, if its like your brain running a different operating system, it's still processing the same input, but interpretting it diferently"

No its not really processing the same input... Let's say that my normal waking state is Windows XP.. I fall asleep or take a psychedelic or go skydiving or am born or whatever and I get to write a new operating system (or work on the existing operating system) for that given state of mind according to what the senses are sensing), with its own ways of "moving files" around and doing computations on the same hardware - Now I'm running Unix or something heheh. There's also the idea of backwards-compatability, where a newer operating system can "run" things from older versions, but NOT VICE VERSA :wink:, something analogous to the difficulty I encounter when attempting to bring all the data from a psychedelic experience back "down" with me.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/23/03 04:07 AM)


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1485132 - 04/23/03 04:01 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

my system crashes a lot.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: SteelLynx]
    #1485136 - 04/23/03 04:05 AM (18 years, 29 days ago)

oh yeah I also wanted to reply to this:

"I was also wondering if revelations in dreams can tell you about the universe, or only about your own brain."

I've thought about this as well, and here's one take: In different states of mind, different levels of consciousness are experienced.. for instance, if I'm sitting in a classroom taking notes, most of my consciousness is cut-off so that I can focus on what the teacher is saying and what I'm writing down (and on how to write it heh). If I take a psychedelic, however, or go to sleep, more of my unconscious can come out and play because I'm not focusing as much on the direct present.. I think our unconscious records/notices/stores/processes/organizes/understands/knows way more than most of us would care to worry about. Revelations in your dreams DO tell you about the universe, because your dreams are part of the universe. I don't just learn things about myself from my dreams - i think this is because my brain makes my dreams, and my brain is constantly "recording" everything within range. I'm not saying you can learn what the dark side of the moon looks like in a dream without having ever seen it.. its more like realizing things about stuff that you already had stored in your brain; making connections that weren't previously there by dipping into the wealth of information that has been recorded but not studied and compared.. and extrapolating ideas from there lol I totally just lost my train of thought I better just click "Continue" - interesting shit, to say the least.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/23/03 04:10 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1486458 - 04/23/03 04:24 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

"Hmm, if its like your brain running a different operating system, it's still processing the same input, but interpretting it diferently"

No its not really processing the same input... Let's say that my normal waking state is Windows XP.. I fall asleep or take a psychedelic or go skydiving or am born or whatever and I get to write a new operating system (or work on the existing operating system) for that given state of mind according to what the senses are sensing), with its own ways of "moving files" around and doing computations on the same hardware - Now I'm running Unix or something heheh. There's also the idea of backwards-compatability, where a newer operating system can "run" things from older versions, but NOT VICE VERSA :wink:, something analogous to the difficulty I encounter when attempting to bring all the data from a psychedelic experience back "down" with me. 





Thats a damn good metaphore


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ]
    #1486729 - 04/23/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Sclorch, Im glad you arent getting heated as you claim - it completely takes away from a true argument, and makes it a battle of emotions, rather then us helping each other and evolving opinions and ideas.


As long as you are open to what I say, and consider it, Ill bite.


First off, my opinion on enlightenment has nothing to do with any religion, or buddhism. I simply feel thats what makes a person "enlightened' To be liberated from your own mind, what more could enlightenment be? That allows you to think clearly, focus your energy on specific things, worry less, and not become a victim to your ego. That is why I consider what I mentioned enlightenment!

Secondly, I understand what you are saying.

The only reason I can say that I've been enlightened, is because I fit MY definition of enlightenment, based on mine and others peoples experiences while under the influence of mushrooms. I no longer have ego, I face all my fears as they arise, I can see past my normal mind patterns...and generally have a clear, easy going mind - just waiting for a task or something to happen to focus my attention on.


How do I know this isnt just a drug-induced state that makes me think Im enlightened? Simply based on my experience. Now you could say that proves or validates nothing, and your right! It doesnt! Either way, there is no way to validate enlightenment wether on or off drugs. Jesus couldnt prove he was enlightened, he could only set examples and help people.....



I don't find the concept of psychedelics inducing temporary enlightenment far fetched, I mean why not? If years of meditation can do it, whats to say plants and chemicals cant also do it?

Hell, perphaps in the future there will be machines we can plug into , that after a few years will give us an ever lasting enlightenment.


But what do I know, Im only 16.


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Offlineninjahedge
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1487137 - 04/23/03 08:10 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

ok, my opinion:

enlightenment - who the fuck knows what that really is, i don't think it is something meant to be defined, nor do i think that it is the same by any means from person to person. i think what shrooms do to you depends entirely on the perceptions of the user:

lets say you take a relatively high dose - you have a spiritual experience of some sort, yada, yada.... one person may claim that they really contacted, or got close to some sort of divine force - they could think this so strongly that it becomes real to them...but for another fellow, he may have the same experience and attribute it to his brain just riding the chemicals he just ingested, and that he contacted no real profound spiritual force - BUT he still could interpret the experience to have a profound affect on his outlook etc.

if you claim you have had divine insight, i'm not going to argue with you - but it's my opinion that it is only real to you specifically because your beliefs make it real. Me? i say it's the chemicals in the fungus i ingested not too long ago, and my brain trying to make sense of the mayhem they are causing in my noodle (like sclorch said). you get what you want out of it, your mind will create enlightenment if you are apt to receive such a thing, but it's only real to you in your own mind, not to anyone else. but even if it's just chemicals and not something mystical, this doesn't make it any less meaningful, or make mushrooms any less useful for anyone.

do you think because something can be scientifically explained it becomes any less beautiful or wondrous? i think it's exactly the opposite - look at the world around you, and at your own body and mind - science is beauty.
...cheers...


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


Edited by ninjahedge (04/23/03 08:20 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1487329 - 04/23/03 09:40 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

ninjahedge: but even if it's just chemicals and not something mystical, this doesn't make it any less meaningful, or make mushrooms any less useful for anyone.

Yesss... combat the dualism.
"useful"... the only way to validate anything.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1487740 - 04/24/03 12:26 AM (18 years, 28 days ago)

I never claimed to have a divine experience, or spiritual experience at all. I said enlightenment, which I have definately achieved from mushrooms. I was off-topic, I apologize


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Offlineninjahedge
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1488272 - 04/24/03 03:54 AM (18 years, 28 days ago)

if you have acheived enlightenment at your ripe age of 16 (don't be offended, i too am in my youth), i am very interested to what this enlightenment entails to you personally. what does your enlightenment bring to you? Did this enlightenment come through use of mushrooms or other psychedelics?


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1488981 - 04/24/03 12:30 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

... I said enlightenment, which I have definately achieved from mushrooms.



Oh wise one, how may I follow you? Seriously though, if you remain aware, curious and critical in your thoughts, the path of your life will be one of continued enlightenment. Mushrooms only provide a view from another room on the universe (a very nice room I must admit), how you integrate the experience with your understanding of things is what's critical.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Evolving]
    #1489278 - 04/24/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Evolving: how you integrate the experience with your understanding of things is what's critical.

I just wanted to bold that.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1489539 - 04/24/03 03:03 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

if you have acheived enlightenment at your ripe age of 16 (don't be offended, i too am in my youth), i am very interested to what this enlightenment entails to you personally. what does your enlightenment bring to you? Did this enlightenment come through use of mushrooms or other psychedelics?





The enlightenment came through the use of psychedelics, and if its not obvious enough, it quickly faded. The enlightened state wore off, as the drug wore off.

I regain that state everytime I eat mushrooms.


I believe enlightenment is our true nature, we just have to find it. The hardest part for me in finding enlightenment that lasts is my ego. My ego continues to get in the way (mushrooms completely disolve this) and create what I call "life drama" ...either wanting things, being bored, getting angry, etc - and attaching myself to those...that is all product of ego.


I am also not the only one to reach an enlightened state from mushrooms, or psychedelics - Ram Dass had glimpses of enlightenment through LSD, and many other people Im sure have attained this state.

Psychedelics are a path, if used correctly - to mind-opening awareness. This however, is temporary, so you can only get glimpses of it.


Psychedelics are not needed (duh) to attain enlightenment, and certainly will never give someone ever lasting enlightenment - but they ARE capable of bringing one to an enlightened state.



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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1489548 - 04/24/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

On another note, I think some of you may be skeptical of this becuase you view enlightenment as something extremely hard to achieve and far out.

Enlightenment is simply our truest nature, the nature of nomind....instead of the nature of Mind (ego).

Our mind, and our body are both tools....but when we confuse them as OURSELVES....this is when we adapt an ego, and fall in consciousness. To be enlightened, is to be aware without forming opinions or attaching or clinging.


So to achieve this from a plant or fungus, is NOT at all far fetched.

Anyone can achieve enlightenment, regardless of age, intelligence, gender, race, etc.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1489616 - 04/24/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

I think enlightenment doesn't just stay with a person, too - you have to work to keep the internal magic going


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1489631 - 04/24/03 03:35 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

But isn't it our nature to have an ego?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Murex]
    #1489857 - 04/24/03 04:29 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

I think its our nature to balance the ego and the "logos" or whatever you want to call it.... modern society completely ignores the unconscious now, and is almost strictly dependant upon ego for survival. "I deserve this job because I am ME and I am SPECIAL" that kinda thing makes the ego very useful. Its not easy to stand out in a crowd if you barely have an ego, and this society digs those who stand out in a crowd. too much ego, though, I think is very bad for society; we're watching that happen right now.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/24/03 04:30 PM)


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OfflineInsomniac
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1493999 - 04/25/03 06:54 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

IMO, if you have defined enlightenment for yourself, I would say you have entirely missed the point.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Insomniac]
    #1494018 - 04/25/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

supermarket: "I no longer have ego"


hmmmm.....thats a very interesting comment. do you know what an ego is?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1494058 - 04/25/03 07:31 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

thanks for your explanation, supermarket

i am under the impression that enlightenment is something that is very difficult to acheive indeed. not something you can get to for a few hours by eating some fungus or LSD. also i have a hard time accepting that "enlightenment" can be temporary - the nature of the concept seems to me to denote a state that is reached somehow through the power of one's own mind and you stay that way once you acheive it. I think i'm skeptical that enlightenment of this sort even exists; i lean more toward the idea that you and others simply interpret profound thoughts and mental patterns to be that you have reached some sort of otherworldly brain state. if enlightenment can be reached by dosing on shrooms, it seems that it's much less special than i had thought.


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1494101 - 04/25/03 08:06 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

enlightenment is completely subjective. (in my belief) the romantic idea that a human being can become "enlightened" and understand the ultimate truth of the universe is false. people understand the universe how ever they want to, and if they are content with their understanding, and live happily, they are "enlightened", in their own personal sense. but what do i know.....im not enlightened.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1494171 - 04/25/03 09:04 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

when you're sober you're sober
when you're tripping you're tripping

it's all in there, things just get hidden, especially when you have a million other things you feel like you have to worry about or it will be the end of the world.

whats with this mental state hierarchy?

what is more real? that empty feeling you get when you wake up in the morning sometimes, or that connected feeling you get when it just starts to get dark and quiet outside and the stars begin to shine...

how can you say anything you feel is an illusion? if you're feeling it than i'd say its safe to call it 'real'. even if your 'logic' on the matter is completely ass-backwards, you're still feeling something. it's essence is pure.

remember when you got really physically hurt that time? you don't feel that pain anymore, so did it really happen?

sounds like you can have 'sober' delusions of grandeur just as easily by thinking you can classify what is real or not in the mind... or in life, for that matter.

my .02






Edited by Grav (04/25/03 09:09 PM)


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Grav]
    #1494184 - 04/25/03 09:15 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

on another note, I think if you depend on drugs for "enlightenment" you're really digging yourself into a hole.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Grav]
    #1494414 - 04/25/03 11:17 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Enlightenment is just a concept, stop typing and free "yourself".  :grin: 


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1494708 - 04/26/03 01:49 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

If you all really think about it, isn't tripping no different than 'reality'?

Reality, in my opinion, is just the entire 'experience' and everything within it. But, reality IS subjective from one person to the next, and that's what makes us individuals and shapes who we are/become. For example, the issue of, is the cup half empty or half full? Both people are absolutely correct, but they both have different perceptions of the same experience.

Therefore, if I'm tripping really hard in my room and am experiencing what feels like literally hundreds of years in the insane mindstate, am I really TRIPPING? Or am I just experiencing 'reality' in a different way, with it being no less 'real'?

A schizophrenic is only considered 'insane' because he is not part of a major percentage compared to the concensus of people in this world. Just because one person experiences life differently, whether drastic or minimal, doesn't mean what he is experiencing is any less or more 'real' than what most people experience.

This is my mindset. Reality and everything within it are only as real as you care to make them, there is no absolute 'gauge' as to how real something is because you can readily debate what the definition of 'real' really is.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: HB]
    #1494755 - 04/26/03 02:01 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Pretty much, the first step to approaching all of this is making the decision of:

Are you experiencing this reality?

or

Are you manifesting this reality?


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Grav]
    #1494993 - 04/26/03 03:02 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:


what is more real? that empty feeling you get when you wake up in the morning sometimes, or that connected feeling you get when it just starts to get dark and quiet outside and the stars begin to shine...

how can you say anything you feel is an illusion? if you're feeling it than i'd say its safe to call it 'real'. even if your 'logic' on the matter is completely ass-backwards, you're still feeling something. it's essence is pure.

remember when you got really physically hurt that time? you don't feel that pain anymore, so did it really happen?

sounds like you can have 'sober' delusions of grandeur just as easily by thinking you can classify what is real or not in the mind... or in life, for that matter.






hey Grav I really like that


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: NariusFractal]
    #1495227 - 04/26/03 05:12 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

what a minute--

what does "manifesting this reality" mean?>


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1495367 - 04/26/03 08:00 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

What a delightful thread. :smile:

I only have one question to ask.

If there is no commonality to be found in entheogenic plants etc., then how is it that the shaman of the Amazon were able to find the exact two plants that fit together to make Ayahuasca?

The only answer I have ever heard from the High Court of Empirical Knowledge ( Harrumph Harrumph) is that was coincidence or an accident.  You wouldn't really expect a truly skeptical mind to believe that, would you? 


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ]
    #1495387 - 04/26/03 08:36 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

I completely agree with HB
"If you feel it, it's real" At least to you it's real.
Same thing with dreams, you feel real emotions. Why wouldn't dreams be considered
real? Anyone got a dictionary handy to check the defintion of real and/or reality?
Maybe it should be updated.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: thelox]
    #1495396 - 04/26/03 09:21 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

do you have a link to information on that, Mushrooms?
sounds interesting

thanks sheister, I liked it too... one of my rare moments of being able to remotely explain an opinion. :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Grav]
    #1495400 - 04/26/03 09:27 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

It's pretty common knowledge Grav but I read about the details in a book called "One River", a tribute to Timothy Plowman.

Check it out.

Cheers,


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1495417 - 04/26/03 09:58 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Sclorchito my amigo! Fungi bring divine enlightenment W/O a doubt!
1)Enlighten; to bring light or knowlege
2)divine:something sensed which is greater than ego

Perhaps you have not experienced a personal "divine enlightenment" from fungi but I can assure you many others  through ego dissillusion have directly experienced events which have precipitated personal growth  and important realizations regarding their lives.
So "Divine Enlightenment": information of a novel nature obtained in a state of ego dissillusion or diminshment which has the potential to help in personal growth.
No magic here,nothing all that mystic and only delusional if one integrates ego/desire into the paradigm.
I am almost heteroabsolutly positive that this is the case :grin:WR
 


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1495422 - 04/26/03 10:05 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Howdy Parder! :wink:

So then can we say that this consensus of which you speak can draw a parallel to the consensus about reality in general?

Cheers,


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ]
    #1495449 - 04/26/03 10:41 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

If I understand what your asking,Yes. When we experience true novelty of thought we have recieved "Divine Enlightenment" whether this is "Good or Evil" is a human perspective.These are the "Delusions of Grandeur"that information is either good or evil when we apply these perspectives to information with our inherent ego/desire system.When this system is interupted via any one of many methods of ego suppression novel information can be integrated w/o ego /desire and the delusional thought proceses acompanying the ego/desire portion of our consciousness.
This differing self perspective can allow for an  extra-conscious information to be  integrated.
This is based upon the idea of the conscious mind existing as a subunit of a greater Super-mind which is the total of our mentation,conscious,subconscious,autonomic,more? by subduing the dominant conscious portion information is more available from the balance of the "mind" some of which is in tune with the novelty of the universe(Divine?).
I am not sure this is what you were looking for in a reply :confused:
And a fine good AM to you all  :wink:WR


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1495455 - 04/26/03 10:52 AM (18 years, 25 days ago)

:smile:  Thank you.

Then I take it that since a consensus can be used as a verification then that idealism ala Berkeley is the load of nonsense that I have always maintained it was.

I am glad to know this.

evens Sans Goedel.

Great.

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ]
    #1495555 - 04/26/03 12:12 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Then I take it that since a consensus can be used as a verification then that idealism ala Berkeley is the load of nonsense that I have always maintained it was.

I am glad to know this.





Come on... I know you can do better than that.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: buttonion]
    #1495652 - 04/26/03 01:07 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

:grin:

I might be shamming.  But who knows? :wink:

Let us say I am not.  What would be wrong with my argument?

Philosophically speaking, of course. :smile:

Cheers,


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1495700 - 04/26/03 01:28 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Well, if you choose to be experiencing this reality, that would mean that you are choosing to live within the rules and boundaries of what we know as 'reality'

If you choose to be manifesting this reality, it's essentially like taking all the 'laws' of reality and tossing them out, as buddhist monks and others do

It comes down to, do you BELIEVE that you are in control?

I'll show you what I mean.

I took a friend on a high dose trip at my ranch ... he took his first 6 gram dose. By the peak, he had lost all concept of the laws of reality (having a name, going to work, etc etc, all the human-created things) but with my help he became no different than 'god'. He was able to create giant majestic valleys and make himself feel cold or warm on command, etc etc.

You may say it's all fake.

But how is it fake when it's no different than what we are experiencing this very 'sober' instant? The only way it is different is that it is not socially acceptable because it is not a common way to experience life.

The eternity he spent there creating worlds was just as real as the next morning he woke up and ate cereal, he just CHOSE to spend it differently.

You can harness such power without drugs, by way of astral projection, meditation and remote viewing, which I am currently working on right now with my herbalist.

BUT

You have to BELIEVE that the world is malleable before you can set forth and experience this while sober. If you don't believe it can be done, and that the world still has fundamental rules, you'll never go beyond.

My herbalist has taken me on three astral projections now ... the 'farthest' I have gone was releasing my physical body and experiencing the room I was in as an energy rather than a visual experience which most people would see it as ... instead of 'seeing' a wall, you feel it in your 'master control panel', for lack of better words ...

He left for 45 minutes to let me 'explore', and I could feel when he was coming back, so sure enough, after I brought myself back, literally 3 seconds later he opened the door. We will be working on astral projection and meditation for a long time, I think it's the most interesting thing I have ever done.

Again, this all requires that you believe you can do these things, if you tell something like this to Joe Nobody on the streets, he'll laugh at you.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: HB]
    #1495943 - 04/26/03 03:15 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

This thread needs another injection of pragmatism...

Fuck consensus opinion on almost everything (the masses aren't to be trusted).
Berkeley sucks (hey, another thing me and M_M agree on!).

Pragmatism is applicable idealism.

---------------------------------------
That's all for now... the women just showed up... sorry.



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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1495959 - 04/26/03 03:23 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Fuck consensus opinion on almost everything




Absolutely


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: HB]
    #1495967 - 04/26/03 03:25 PM (18 years, 25 days ago)

Society tries to organise everybody's thoughts together in order to make a solidified glue

A very obvious and depressing example is Hot or Not?

They try to OBJECTIVELY say whether somebody is attractive, without realizing that, 'Hey! Everybody has different taste!' ...

It's so ... truly depressing ... it sickens me ... and it makes a lot of people feel terrible about themselves ...

I'd go on that show and go through it all in hopes that I'd win just so I could tell the world exactly what I think of it on live television

That would surely shake them the fuck up ...


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1497557 - 04/27/03 11:31 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

This thread needs another injection of pragmatism...

Fuck consensus opinion on almost everything (the masses aren't to be trusted).
Berkeley sucks (hey, another thing me and M_M agree on!).

Pragmatism is applicable idealism.

---------------------------------------
That's all for now... the women just showed up... sorry.

 




:grin:
I knew you'd get my point!

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ]
    #1498192 - 04/27/03 05:24 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

A consensus opinion does not necessarily point to the ?Truth.?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: buttonion]
    #1498258 - 04/27/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Then what does?


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1499573 - 04/28/03 02:15 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

supermarket: "I no longer have ego"


hmmmm.....thats a very interesting comment. do you know what an ego is?





I have never claimed that I dont have ego, as I in my normal unconscious state still identify with it.


Ego is basically The product of God identified with body and mind. When we start to actually believe we are only a human with a mind and body - and are associated with it fully - our mind runs our being. This is ego. It consists of what we want ourselves to think of ourselves, what we want others to think of ourselvses...it also consists of Want, and clinging.

Yes, i certainly have ego - but I have also certainly had MANY periods in my life in which ego did not exist. Can you say that you havent? Ego loss happens often to me - some triggers are psychedelics, intense fear, intense surrender to the current presence, and meditation.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1499728 - 04/28/03 03:09 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

"Ego is basically The product of God identified with body and mind"

oh okay, so you are talking about your definition of ego, not the actual definition....now i understand, thanks!


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1499868 - 04/28/03 04:24 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

supermarket: Ego is basically The product of God identified with body and mind.

That's funny, I've always thought that ego is the product of body and mind, often mistakenly linked with that abstract concept (used primarily as a focusing method) sometimes called god.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1501508 - 04/28/03 07:14 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

The shroom certainly does not enlighten everyone although I beleive it is a powerful tool for this purpose.

Answering the question It is insight because you always see or look at something in a new way after taking them and it is also delusion becuase what you are sensing is altering.

So mainly delusion but spiritual insight is rife if your seeking it!


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Ego Death]
    #1501834 - 04/28/03 08:57 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Why are you guys being so difficult? Am I upsetting your egos :smile:


I think i am :smile:


Damn....now Im feeding mine


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OfflineViBrAnT
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1502769 - 04/29/03 12:50 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

are you seeing into the future or creating the future, the timeless question that cannot be answered, trust my i have briefly reach full enlightenment without phsycadelics. could have been a flashback, but i could see my parents third eyes, never seen that on shrooms, but the experiences were almost identical: feeling , visuals, everything. while in this heightened state it is very easy to leave your body, warp through onion layers of reality and telekenetic abilites.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1503298 - 04/29/03 05:00 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Yeah... I met this schizophrenic wanderer in Upstate NY that used to spout similar garbage. Last I heard he was mining quartz crystals out of the mountains, figured he could fly, tried and broke his leg instead. He was a weird dude. Talked alot about how smart and wise he was. Oh well... who knows, right?




Wait... no.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1503388 - 04/29/03 05:46 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

What do you care whether someone else has a divine insight or delusion of grandeur? Does it effect your perception of reality either way?

And how can you tell the difference?
Could not their divine insight be your delusion of grandeur and vice versa?

What verification can you make that someone did in fact commune with the divine presence? You cannot, because experience is subjective, therefore your point is moot.

We all know objective reality cannot be translated to words.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1503403 - 04/29/03 06:00 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

In the end, any insight you get from shrooms or other psychadelics probably won't affect your everyday life, or at least not in an observable way. You might feel more of a sense of purpose or understanding, but it probably won't change the way you live your life--only the way you think and feel. Philosophy is the same way.


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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1503409 - 04/29/03 06:04 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

If you change the way you think, you change your life. Your thoughts create your reality.


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