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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,232
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1482769 - 04/22/03 04:41 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

The idea of mushrooms not bringing about enlightenment is very "unenlightened" in itself.


You may think that you've stumbled upon someone who doesn't know what he talks about, but don't worry, you haven't.


Shrooms have, in every form and sense, brought about enlightenment within me. No, it did not last. No, I don't much remember the state. Yes, however, I am sure that I had reached an enlightened state MANY times over from mushrooms.


You seem to speak, or type in a hostile manner, can I ask why?



Anyway, enlightenment may not be what you think.

Enlightenment to me is freedom from your habitual patterns that the mind holds with almost everyone. Free from your own mind, innocent. As if seeing from a child eyes, yet thinking with a wise man's mind.


What do you view enlightenment as? Enlightenment contains loss of ego, which mushrooms definately bring about. Enlightenment contains freedom from habit mind, which psychedelics are known for.





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OfflineDellComputers
Bluntman

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 806
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482843 - 04/22/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Theres a difference between changing the way the brain functions, and then noticing and going passed the habits of our brain




I understand what you mean, but since psychadelics change the way the brain works, then just since you feel like youve 'gone past' the habits of your brain...doesnt mean its so. I mean I have thought about a lot of shit that makes sense on weed,lol, then when you come down you're like what the fuck was i talking about? lol, Im sure you've been there...Shrooms are much different but you see my point, since your brains function is changed, its impossible to judge whats 'real'.


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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OfflineSteelLynx
lumpo-tron
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 5
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1483034 - 04/22/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

To me it seems that reality is a direct product of having a brain, or that is to say that the way you percieve reality is due to the phyiosology/chemistry of your brain. Soo, when you trip and alter the way your brain works reality ( or your perception of reality, i'm not sure there a difference, or a meaningful one anyhow ) also changes. This new perception of reality is no more or less "real" or "valid" than the reality experienced by the sober brain.

I'm not entirely sure what the significance of this is to me, but i guess it shows me that one can't really know the "ultimate nature of reality", which is perhaps i valuable insight. Anyhow, i'm rambling and having a hard time writing clearly, heh.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
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Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1483176 - 04/22/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

There is no definate proof you fool. Otherwise there wouldn't be religions, cuz we'd all know (from proof) that there is or isn't something spiritual out there. Duh.

:tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleClosetCase
but only inwinter

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 295
Loc: Somewhere rubbing my nugs...
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1483312 - 04/22/03 07:27 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

I'd just like to add something to this whole "changes how your brain works" argument.

First off, your physical brain doesn't change, you just give it a different fuel. Think of your brain like a car's engine. Normal engines run off regular gasoline, but there are other fuels out there that would make your brain perform better, faster, without the thick cloudy exhaust. Now of course if you run these fuels all the time and at full throttle you are going to wear your engine out. But it's still the same engine, it's existence hasn't changed.

The "it could just be an illusion" is bunk if you ask me. Everything is real AND everything is an illusion. It's what you judge it to be. Remember, the universe is infinite, and something is connected everything, making it finite.


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1483342 - 04/22/03 07:35 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

I don't think of it as fuel, I consider it more like "booting up" under a different "operating system." This helps explain why its so hard to "convert" ideas from one state of mind to the other correctly.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/22/03 07:35 PM)


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InvisibleClosetCase
but only inwinter

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 295
Loc: Somewhere rubbing my nugs...
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1483355 - 04/22/03 07:39 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

Exactly


--------------------
"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1483369 - 04/22/03 07:42 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

First off, your physical brain doesn't change, you just give it a different fuel.



You mean instead of glucose?

That's really not a good analogy. There are quite a different number of neurotransmitters affecting different brain systems, when we discuss the effects of most psychoactive substances this is usually what we are talking about. It's has much more to do with communications between the brain cells and systems than it does with fuel source. A better analogy might have something to do with telecommunications.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinejono
misc.
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 137
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Last seen: 4 years, 12 days
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1483508 - 04/22/03 08:21 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

I really like that analogy Strumpling! I think it encompasses the same opinion as mine nicely..

With Metta,
Jono.


--------------------
Our problem results from acting like cowboys on a limitless frontier when in truth we inhabit a living spaceship with a finely balanced life-support system." David C. Korton


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: jono]
    #1483566 - 04/22/03 08:38 PM (18 years, 18 days ago)

well Happy 69th post to you then :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSteelLynx
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Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 5
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1484490 - 04/23/03 12:11 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

Hmm, if its like your brain running a different operating system, it's still processing the same input, but interpretting it diferently ( more validly? less validly? does it matter ? ), I dunno, it's all pretty strange.

I was also wondering if revelations in dreams can tell you about the universe, or only about your own brain. Like, dreaming is sort of like tripping, except all the perceptions, or at least most of them are generated directly within the brain, so I guess I'm just posing "Are divine insights possible in the dream world"?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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It's the USER... not the tool. [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1485051 - 04/23/03 02:56 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

The idea of mushrooms not bringing about enlightenment is very "unenlightened" in itself.
Explain. I'm obviously an idiot.

You may think that you've stumbled upon someone who doesn't know what he talks about, but don't worry, you haven't.

It's good that you said "may"... otherwise I'd have a problem with you putting words in my mouth.

Shrooms have, in every form and sense, brought about enlightenment within me. No, it did not last. No, I don't much remember the state. Yes, however, I am sure that I had reached an enlightened state MANY times over from mushrooms.

Great. I've been there, too.... yeeha...
My point is, how do you KNOW that this feeling of enlightenment and whatnot isn't just a neural cascade that has been triggered (indirectly or directly) by whatever psychedelic you ingested?

The only way you can know is by what you take from your experience and how you apply it to your life. And, since not every person who has taken psychedelics (think: party drug people) has had these feelings of "enlightenment" and/or been able to apply this new way of thinking to their lives... then is it accurate to say that psychedelics INDUCE enlightenment?
I say no.

You seem to speak, or type in a hostile manner, can I ask why?
You can ask anything you like.
But seriously, I have no hostile intentions.... though you really shouldn't bother yourself about my intentions.

Anyway, enlightenment may not be what you think.
Enlightenment to me is freedom from your habitual patterns that the mind holds with almost everyone. Free from your own mind, innocent. As if seeing from a child eyes, yet thinking with a wise man's mind.


Yeah yeah yeah... I've read "Alan Watts for Dummies" too.
The proof is in the pudding. Show me yours if you like.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: It's the USER... not the tool. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1485100 - 04/23/03 03:36 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

okay, semantics alert!

what does "enlightenment" mean, please enlighten me, someone...please.

in my opinion, the idea of "enlightenment" is extremely unenlightened, unless of course...you prescribe to MY form of "enlightenment", then you dear sir...are..."enlightened".

totally off topic: the way westerners bastardize asian philosophy is almost as funny as the way easterners bastardize hiphop and punk rock.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: SteelLynx]
    #1485104 - 04/23/03 03:40 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

"Hmm, if its like your brain running a different operating system, it's still processing the same input, but interpretting it diferently"

No its not really processing the same input... Let's say that my normal waking state is Windows XP.. I fall asleep or take a psychedelic or go skydiving or am born or whatever and I get to write a new operating system (or work on the existing operating system) for that given state of mind according to what the senses are sensing), with its own ways of "moving files" around and doing computations on the same hardware - Now I'm running Unix or something heheh. There's also the idea of backwards-compatability, where a newer operating system can "run" things from older versions, but NOT VICE VERSA :wink:, something analogous to the difficulty I encounter when attempting to bring all the data from a psychedelic experience back "down" with me.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/23/03 04:07 AM)


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1485132 - 04/23/03 04:01 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

my system crashes a lot.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: SteelLynx]
    #1485136 - 04/23/03 04:05 AM (18 years, 18 days ago)

oh yeah I also wanted to reply to this:

"I was also wondering if revelations in dreams can tell you about the universe, or only about your own brain."

I've thought about this as well, and here's one take: In different states of mind, different levels of consciousness are experienced.. for instance, if I'm sitting in a classroom taking notes, most of my consciousness is cut-off so that I can focus on what the teacher is saying and what I'm writing down (and on how to write it heh). If I take a psychedelic, however, or go to sleep, more of my unconscious can come out and play because I'm not focusing as much on the direct present.. I think our unconscious records/notices/stores/processes/organizes/understands/knows way more than most of us would care to worry about. Revelations in your dreams DO tell you about the universe, because your dreams are part of the universe. I don't just learn things about myself from my dreams - i think this is because my brain makes my dreams, and my brain is constantly "recording" everything within range. I'm not saying you can learn what the dark side of the moon looks like in a dream without having ever seen it.. its more like realizing things about stuff that you already had stored in your brain; making connections that weren't previously there by dipping into the wealth of information that has been recorded but not studied and compared.. and extrapolating ideas from there lol I totally just lost my train of thought I better just click "Continue" - interesting shit, to say the least.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (04/23/03 04:10 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1486458 - 04/23/03 04:24 PM (18 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

"Hmm, if its like your brain running a different operating system, it's still processing the same input, but interpretting it diferently"

No its not really processing the same input... Let's say that my normal waking state is Windows XP.. I fall asleep or take a psychedelic or go skydiving or am born or whatever and I get to write a new operating system (or work on the existing operating system) for that given state of mind according to what the senses are sensing), with its own ways of "moving files" around and doing computations on the same hardware - Now I'm running Unix or something heheh. There's also the idea of backwards-compatability, where a newer operating system can "run" things from older versions, but NOT VICE VERSA :wink:, something analogous to the difficulty I encounter when attempting to bring all the data from a psychedelic experience back "down" with me. 





Thats a damn good metaphore


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,232
Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ]
    #1486729 - 04/23/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 17 days ago)

Sclorch, Im glad you arent getting heated as you claim - it completely takes away from a true argument, and makes it a battle of emotions, rather then us helping each other and evolving opinions and ideas.


As long as you are open to what I say, and consider it, Ill bite.


First off, my opinion on enlightenment has nothing to do with any religion, or buddhism. I simply feel thats what makes a person "enlightened' To be liberated from your own mind, what more could enlightenment be? That allows you to think clearly, focus your energy on specific things, worry less, and not become a victim to your ego. That is why I consider what I mentioned enlightenment!

Secondly, I understand what you are saying.

The only reason I can say that I've been enlightened, is because I fit MY definition of enlightenment, based on mine and others peoples experiences while under the influence of mushrooms. I no longer have ego, I face all my fears as they arise, I can see past my normal mind patterns...and generally have a clear, easy going mind - just waiting for a task or something to happen to focus my attention on.


How do I know this isnt just a drug-induced state that makes me think Im enlightened? Simply based on my experience. Now you could say that proves or validates nothing, and your right! It doesnt! Either way, there is no way to validate enlightenment wether on or off drugs. Jesus couldnt prove he was enlightened, he could only set examples and help people.....



I don't find the concept of psychedelics inducing temporary enlightenment far fetched, I mean why not? If years of meditation can do it, whats to say plants and chemicals cant also do it?

Hell, perphaps in the future there will be machines we can plug into , that after a few years will give us an ever lasting enlightenment.


But what do I know, Im only 16.


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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1487137 - 04/23/03 08:10 PM (18 years, 17 days ago)

ok, my opinion:

enlightenment - who the fuck knows what that really is, i don't think it is something meant to be defined, nor do i think that it is the same by any means from person to person. i think what shrooms do to you depends entirely on the perceptions of the user:

lets say you take a relatively high dose - you have a spiritual experience of some sort, yada, yada.... one person may claim that they really contacted, or got close to some sort of divine force - they could think this so strongly that it becomes real to them...but for another fellow, he may have the same experience and attribute it to his brain just riding the chemicals he just ingested, and that he contacted no real profound spiritual force - BUT he still could interpret the experience to have a profound affect on his outlook etc.

if you claim you have had divine insight, i'm not going to argue with you - but it's my opinion that it is only real to you specifically because your beliefs make it real. Me? i say it's the chemicals in the fungus i ingested not too long ago, and my brain trying to make sense of the mayhem they are causing in my noodle (like sclorch said). you get what you want out of it, your mind will create enlightenment if you are apt to receive such a thing, but it's only real to you in your own mind, not to anyone else. but even if it's just chemicals and not something mystical, this doesn't make it any less meaningful, or make mushrooms any less useful for anyone.

do you think because something can be scientifically explained it becomes any less beautiful or wondrous? i think it's exactly the opposite - look at the world around you, and at your own body and mind - science is beauty.
...cheers...


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


Edited by ninjahedge (04/23/03 08:20 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1487329 - 04/23/03 09:40 PM (18 years, 17 days ago)

ninjahedge: but even if it's just chemicals and not something mystical, this doesn't make it any less meaningful, or make mushrooms any less useful for anyone.

Yesss... combat the dualism.
"useful"... the only way to validate anything.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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