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InvisibleSclorch
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Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur?
    #1479733 - 04/21/03 07:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well, this is always coming up here...

"When you take a psychedelic, you'll see god/become one with god/realize that you're god... etc."
Assuming we all have experienced something like this while under the influence of an entheogen, how are we supposed to know if it is real or merely an illusion? In other words, is it POSSIBLE that (when such a thing occurs) entheogens merely steer the brain into illusory thought cycles?
*Gasp*
*shocked*
*appalled*
"BLASPHEMY!!!"

whoa... slow down there, amigo.

What evidence (non-subjective) do you have that such "divine" experiences are rooted in reality at all? Is it practical, non-subjective (i.e. objective) evidence that you can share with the rest of the class? Doubtful. So why do we (well, some of us) make such assumptions that what we've just experienced was communication with the LOGOS?

I think it is insecurity... but that's just me.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1479777 - 04/21/03 07:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What evidence (non-subjective) do you have that such "divine" experiences are rooted in reality at all?




The evidence is that people take wisdom out of the experience and apply it to life. If the experience were completely random, I would agree, but it is not. There is a common thread to the majority of experiences as reported by trippers. Religion has roots in psychedelic plants: is it all bullshit, or is there something we can't quite figure out yet? I like the second choice.

When I meet another human, I dont wonder if that human is really alive. I never declared allegiance to scientific literature to figure that out what is alive and what isn't. Same holds true with mushrooms, being unable to prove a negative, how can you be so sure that there is nothing there? If I experienced it, then it is a fact to me that it happened. Even though it is the delusional interaction of my brain with psilocin, it still is something alive, not exactly the normal self. Nothing less than an occurence in reality.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: pattern]
    #1479786 - 04/21/03 07:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The experiences are only delusions when you take them for real as oppose to a model of reality. This is why some people are enlightened buddhas, and some people are schizophrenics.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1479884 - 04/21/03 08:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> The experiences are only delusions when you take them for real as oppose to a model of reality.

Those sound dangerously close to the same thing.

> This is why some people are enlightened buddhas, and some people are schizophrenics.

Why should anyone believe that?

Maybe there are enlightened buddhas who have a different opinion.


--------------------
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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: pattern]
    #1480408 - 04/21/03 11:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)




The evidence is that people take wisdom out of the experience and apply it to life. If the experience were completely random, I would agree, but it is not. There is a common thread to the majority of experiences as reported by trippers.




Or could it be that people just associate shrooming with enlightment and religion and what not that its just what people expect of there trip? Not all trips are like that, they are 'random' in the way trips are unpredictable...Its sorta like a dream, some people believe dreams are messages and others believe dreams are just illusions the brain puts together from old memories. I think a trip is what you want it to be,if you want to be 'spiritualy awakened', you will be..if you wanna just see shit and be happy for a few hours,you will. I think psychadelics are what we make them.


--------------------
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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1480476 - 04/21/03 11:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> Or could it be that people just associate shrooming with enlightment and religion and what not that its just what people expect of there trip?

Most of them expect that for a good reason, and that reason is because it happens often. On the other hand, I don't expect to have a psychedelic experience when I eat french fries, but I know they're gonna taste like a potato. Spirituality, enlightenment, religion, delusions, etc, they are all traits attributed to mushrooms throughout history.

> Not all trips are like that, they are 'random' in the way trips are unpredictable...

I disagree, because there are different trip effects due to different drugs. If it were random, then you could get an acid trip from mushrooms, and vice versa.

> I think a trip is what you want it to be,if you want to be 'spiritualy awakened', you will be..if you wanna just see shit and be happy for a few hours,you will. I think psychadelics are what we make them.

Well said. The people taking the psychedelics are always the most important part of the equation. Fitting that into my framework: they are a tool that can be used for a goal, in this case spiritual awakening. Mushrooms are one of the best tools. It has another function: to see shit and be happy, but a tool can have more than one function.


--------------------
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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: pattern]
    #1480481 - 04/21/03 11:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe I should have elaborated more...

The brain is a pattern recognition system. When a shitload of stimuli is thrown at it, the brain frantically tries to make sense of it all. I posit that the "all is one" meme that is often born from the chaotic stimuli of a psychedelic dose is merely an illusion created by the brain in order to explain away the randomness. "It's too complicated for a sober mind to comprehend..." I don't think so. I've been through the "all is one" kick many times... though I have not received "divine knowledge" every time I've tripped. This is why I am led to think that it is merely a shortcut our minds employ in order to stay afloat in the sensory overload.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1480632 - 04/22/03 12:14 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> The brain is a pattern recognition system.

Its true: you recognized me!

Quote:


When a shitload of stimuli is thrown at it, the brain frantically tries to make sense of it all. I posit that the "all is one" meme that is often born from the chaotic stimuli of a psychedelic dose is merely an illusion created by the brain in order to explain away the randomness.





On the other hand one could argue: the brain is noticing a pattern in the randomness, and forming a meme from it.

Quote:

"It's too complicated for a sober mind to comprehend..." I don't think so. I've been through the "all is one" kick many times... though I have not received "divine knowledge" every time I've tripped. This is why I am led to think that it is merely a shortcut our minds employ in order to stay afloat in the sensory overload.




I use the excuse: "Its too complicated and long for the mind to remember". If the all-in-one concept helps people stay afloat in the sensory overload, then the concept has potential, but thinking about it affects the experience.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Registered: 04/04/02
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1480787 - 04/22/03 01:05 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

In other words, is it POSSIBLE that (when such a thing occurs) entheogens merely steer the brain into illusory thought cycles?





Yes, shrooms can definitely do this. But I don?t think the ?oneness with God? perspective is illusory, or less accurate than the typical western view of reality.


Quote:

What evidence (non-subjective) do you have that such "divine" experiences are rooted in reality at all? Is it practical, non-subjective (i.e. objective) evidence that you can share with the rest of the class? Doubtful. So why do we (well, some of us) make such assumptions that what we've just experienced was communication with the LOGOS?





Well we first have to know what ?real? reality is before we go a judge whether a perspective is closer or farther away from it. Or we can use the pragmatic approach (which I am warming up to) and ask which is the most useful theory or conception of reality- another way of stating this is which theory accounts best for the available data. I think shrooms have the potential to show us a more useful way of experiencing.

When I shroom, I find it much easier to take the very eastern religious perspective that all ?things? are ultimately dependent on a countless number of conditions for their ?existence,? that all things are in a constant state of flux (something I know intellectually, but do not incorporate into my default view of things in general), that we can only know things relative to what they are not, ultimately bringing into question my whole conception of things and "being" in general. I also realize that most of the shit I worry about is absolutely trivial relative to the ?big picture.? Yes my preconceptions have an effect on my shrooming experiences, but like somebody said earlier, these drugs have been known to induce such thinking in people for a long time now.

I think that this perspective accounts for experience much better than the typical western conception of reality. Again, it is one thing to intellectually know this ?we are all one? perspective, but to feel it and experience it is something entirely different. Feeling it and acting on it is what I get when I shroom.

Quote:

I think it is insecurity... but that's just me.




I think the ?we are all one? view does result in a reduction of insecurity, but not because it is providing an escape from the ?real? perspective- rather, it is a release from the inherently angst-ridden western way of experiencing that is in fact less accurate.



--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: buttonion]
    #1480895 - 04/22/03 01:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I find the answer is very simple for myself. There's no way to tell for sure what is real and what is not, in everyday life, tripping, or otherwise, so i just go with what feels most real to my soul. And more often than not, the divine experience had during a trip feels much more real to me than my Normal waking consciousness. It feels like i'm home again when i trip. This idea is definitely not rooted in scientific evidence or anything, but it's enough for me. And who's to say that there's anything that scientific rationalism can tell us about the ture nature of a trip? It seems to me tripping holds a spiritual and divine aspect that modern science is blind to, disqualifying it from being able to peg what is going on. If you look at it with scientific rationality in mind, you only see part of the picture.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1481158 - 04/22/03 02:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"In other words, is it POSSIBLE that (when such a thing occurs) entheogens merely steer the brain into illusory thought cycles?"

Yes, it is. I think thats just as fascinating as the possibility that they unplug you from the metaphorical "Matrix" and allow you to "see god" or whatever..

Either way, these psychedelic realms (internal or external) should be explored and if possible, mapped.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1481665 - 04/22/03 08:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If the experience is real or not that does not remove that the experience is a very profound one for the experiencer.
The heaviest trip i had was on mushrooms where I felt as though I was going to leave my body behind and go to another place. This place felt like home. The place where i am really from. As the trip progressed I felt like I was dying and I had to preapre my body as I was about to leave it. These instincs were very strong, as though written in my soul. stronger instincts than any you could feel in your sober body. All this time I felt as though I was getting close to something, the closer i got the more confusing it got, yet the more profound. I was getting close to the truth.

anyway, i didnt make the full experience. and as though I felt something very real I don't know if it was.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482480 - 04/22/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So all who say psychadelics in general,shrooms specifically, 'show you the truth' or free your mind to the 'reality'...What do you say our sober lives are? A false reality?


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1482500 - 04/22/03 03:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think you can say that this is a false reality. Even though many do, and I understand their arguments for that. It seems real eneough to me so id say it is real. I thik it's one of the ultimate questions for me anyway, and at the moment i'm going with it being real.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482502 - 04/22/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Just because we can't see the whole picture from this POV does not mean it is not real.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1482516 - 04/22/03 03:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Here is my take, please think about this.


Many divine insight comes from psychedelics, as well as meditation, and other spiritual practices like fasting and prayer.


NONE of these can be proven, and that is because, like great spiritual gurus will tell you - Perception, reality, enlightenment etc are ALL products of the mind.

Our mind loves to label , judge , and seperate things - but when we can go behind the minds hold on ourselfs, we can not visually, but mentally understand that it is our mind that seperates reality, not reality itself.

Sclorch, I find it interesting that you take the skeptical, scientific approach to understanding spirituality, but that is a contradiction in itself, which is why this question you asked, was asked.

Science strives to measure and label everything, and dismisses any piece of information it "gets" if it doesnt fit into the structural labeling and measurement factor. Science disbelieves in things that cant be measured usually our own limited senses and the technological extensions of them.


To go beyond this, that is something different. To see the patterns of your mind, and then break free - not biasing your views on measurements but rather feeling, this is a spiritual , intuition like knowledge - that is NO less factual than the measured knowledge of science. Both can be incorrect, both can help and change humanity. BUT, you cant really combine the both. Which is what Im trying to stress.


You can either look at something scientifically, or FEEL it for yourself.






Enlightenment is of the mind, and so is percpeption and reality. So what mushrooms does is brings about different views, different insight, even temporary enlightenment. Is this real?? Depends, do you consider your mind to be real?


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OfflineDellComputers
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482602 - 04/22/03 04:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Either way, whether you believe our sober lives are a false reality or not...this is reality because its all we've known or will ever know w/o the use of drugs. So this is reality in the sense that its the level our minds operate on...if you know what im saying. Meditation is a way of exploring your mind while in 'reality'. Using psychadelics can make you believe that you have a higher understanding, but could easily be an illusion. I would lean more torwards meditation and deep thought as a way of understanding 'reality' and our own minds. Psychadelics are definetly fun, and can raise many questions, but if you change the way the brain functions, your no longer in 'reality'. Hope ya know what i mean....


--------------------
:stash: + :bong: = :smile:


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: DellComputers]
    #1482648 - 04/22/03 04:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Theres a difference between changing the way the brain functions, and then noticing and going passed the habits of our brain


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482720 - 04/22/03 04:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Many divine insight comes from psychedelics, as well as meditation, and other spiritual practices like fasting and prayer.
NONE of these can be proven, and that is because, like great spiritual gurus will tell you - Perception, reality, enlightenment etc are ALL products of the mind.


I disagree entirely... ALL of it can be proven, practically speaking. So, you've learned that "all is one"? Great, regardless of its truth


Sclorch, I find it interesting that you take the skeptical, scientific approach to understanding spirituality, but that is a contradiction in itself, which is why this question you asked, was asked.

HA!
What scientific approach? An idea? A thought?
Doesn't sound very scientific to me... no method at all.
Whatever...

You can't combine science with spirituality?
Okay, then I don't ever want to hear your approval of Zukav's "Dancing Wu-Li Masters" or Capra's "The Tao of Physics" or Strassman's "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" or ........


You can either look at something scientifically, or FEEL it for yourself.
You CAN look at something scientifically while at the same time experiencing it with raw feeling.


Enlightenment is of the mind, and so is percpeption and reality. So what mushrooms does is brings about different views, different insight, even temporary enlightenment. Is this real?? Depends, do you consider your mind to be real?

The word "enlightenment" has become the mantra of a new brand of genre elitism... I think it actually makes me physically ill. Shrooms don't transmit views or insight, and they definitely don't "enlighten"... I know many people that have taken shrooms and they've not come one step closer to this mystical "enlightenment". Psychedelics stimulate the brain.... it is up to the user to make something of the experience. As such, WE are responsible for what we think/feel/experience on psychedelics.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Shrooms: Divine Insight or Delusions of Grandeur? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1482744 - 04/22/03 04:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

supermarket: Theres a difference between changing the way the brain functions, and then noticing and going passed the habits of our brain

Could not the temporary feeling of "enlightenment" be a habitual cycle of the brain?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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