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Offlinesoulmotion
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The Infallible Possition (still infallible)
    #3811276 - 02/21/05 03:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, here's the thing:

I've noticed this forum is very introspective, always trying to define itself. For example, there's often a discussion about the title, "Spirituality and Philosophy" as if this title was this forum's constitution and needed to be interpreted and understood. It seems that this forum has a two party system where one 'wing' is more concerned with faith and the other 'wing' is more concerned with logic. Just to review definitions:

Faith, is more about believing in things you can't know for certain, usually based largely on emotion and intuition, rather than on material evidence.

Logic is more about objectifying a problem and working it out rationally, without emotional bias, and considering the probability of something before affirming a belief in it.

Now I realize these definitions are imperfect and could be the subject of debate as they have been, but I'm trying to lead into another idea so bear with me here.

One problem I see is, sometimes 'logic party' extreamists will act as though the 'faith' party is completely illegitimate, when sometimes there is a logical basis for ideals of faith. For myself, I believe that both faith and logic are two sides of the same coin and are both indispensible. I know there are alot of 'moderates' here who share this 'bi-partisan' view. Here's an example of faith agreeing with logic:

"Judging from a wealth of expirience, it seems it is a law of nature that every living organism will die, and it follows then that someday my life will end. Since there is no known cure for death, and the object of my existance is self-preservation, then it would be more profitable for me to investigate the possibility of an afterlife, than to disregaurd it."

It seems to me that alot of times 'logic party' extreamists' skepticism is more based on an emotional resentment toward the ideals of faith, then on rational judgement-- defying their own standard. 'Extreme' Logic is really an illusion anyways because 'proof' is never absolute; a person can question their own existance, sensory perception is only evidence.

THE INFALLIBLE POSSITION:

I will not label any opinion as fact until it can be proven and agreed upon by at least two qualified persons or parties of sober judgement. Even then, it is 'tentative' fact. I will only hold a belief that has merit either through tangible evidence or experiential evidence. Any of my beliefs and opinions may be overturned if a more convincing case (supported by evidence, logic, and/or expirience) may be made.

I make this a standing offer from now on. If I present a view that is flawed in your opinion, I welcome you to challenge it (with evidence, if applicable), and if your possition is more reasonable, I will adopt it.


Edited by soulmotion (02/21/05 10:21 PM)


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3811332 - 02/21/05 04:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

doggy-style always works great!


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3811368 - 02/21/05 04:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Considering that holding onto beliefs has anything to do with spirituality is a big mistake. The pursuit of truth has nothing to do with faith, as the truth stands alone without reference point. The infallible truth can neither be tried no tested. It is our natural state of being that is beyond concept.

Logic is only seemingly useful from an intellectual point of view, and faith is only seemingly useful to the weak minded. The naked truth stands alone, yet in interdependence with everything.

Logical mind, although seemingly interesting, source of all confusion.

Faithful mind, although seemingly spiritual, source of all wrong views.

Belief systems, although seemingly righteous, source of all ignorance.

The Infallible Truth stands alone without concept.


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Sinbad]
    #3811675 - 02/21/05 05:30 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

sinbad
you are getting intolerant and not explaining again.


some people do manage terrific spirituality using faith
and it may not be the same thing you know as faith
and there might be something to learn about it.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3811835 - 02/21/05 05:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I think you maybe confusing 'faith' and 'devotion'. They are two completely different things, let me explain.

Within a spiritual context, faith is a type of belief or trust in something bigger or more powerful than oneself. This is a sort of spiritual babysitting, for want of a better expression, where people see themselves as lesser mortals and never seek the divine benevolence within their own being.

The emphasis in faith is that you dont have knowledge of your own condition or capacity and so you give yourself over to a 'Higher' force, or conceptual idea of a supreme supernatural being or divine benevolence that resides in some conceptual celestial heaven.

This takes the emphasis of spirituality away from the individual and onto some external idea or concept which servery limits the mind, as you will never look inside for what they seek and remain blinded by limiting concepts of an external god or salvation.

Devotion on the other hand emphasis's commitment to the observation of your own condition and emphasis on your relationship to the divine that exists not only externally but internally, present within your own being. This view requires a larger capacity for self-knowledge and a reflective capacity for observation of your own condition in relation to the external world.

Devotion has more spiritual possibilities than Faith, as devotion is not simply subscribing to some limited view, abiding in a force that is apart from oneself. Instead responsibility, commitment and most importantly self-knowledge is required for authentic realization of God.

Now it should be clear what i mean when i say 'Faith'.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3811960 - 02/21/05 06:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Judging from a wealth of expirience, it seems it is a law of nature that every living organism will die, and it follows then that someday my life will end. Since there is no known cure for death, and the object of my existance is self-preservation, then it would be more profitable for me to investigate the possibility of an afterlife, than to disregaurd it."

The missing paragraph

"And as because investigating the after-life is an impossibility without dying, I will adopt a pollyanna view of a perfect post-death-world called heaven to alleviate my fears, even though it is based on nothing but a handed-down story."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Swami]
    #3811984 - 02/21/05 06:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The existance or non-existance of an afterlife is useless to ponder and irrelevant to our present situations (being alive).


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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good to know tibetan meditation but there are other functional spiritual practices [Re: Sinbad]
    #3812346 - 02/21/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:...

Devotion on the other hand emphasis's commitment to the observation of your own condition and emphasis on your relationship to the divine that exists not only externally but internally, present within your own being. This view requires a larger capacity for self-knowledge and a reflective capacity for observation of your own condition in relation to the external world.

Devotion has more spiritual possibilities than Faith, as devotion is not simply subscribing to some limited view, abiding in a force that is apart from oneself. Instead responsibility, commitment and most importantly self-knowledge is required for authentic realization of God.

Now it should be clear what i mean when i say 'Faith'.





you still miss on what other people may mean by faith and it can be a functional thing that is different different from belief and from devotion rituals too.

there is the faith which operates as effectively as meditative
absorption, it is like an energy practice - it is cultivated as by meditation, and it can be used to ease the self through difficult passages. (sometimes with words and concepts - sometimes just pure (*))

you can see some people do it you have to pay attention to their comportment to notice their grace - you migh t not expect it but people of the book also have this(i.e. christians muslims and jews)

often it is just called faith, and it involves no specific belief but can be an action of "believing that one will manage" - like a superior kind of confidence with a jhana like absorption.

it's nice


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Swami]
    #3812532 - 02/21/05 07:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
the missing paragraph

"And as because investigating the after-life is an impossibility without dying...





Hold the phone, you don't have to expirience something to investigate it. I've listened to people tell me, with total sincerity and sobriety, that they witnessed their own death on a hospital bed and met their dead relatives in an afterlife, and then returned to their body. There you go, there's something to investigate. There are many ways to investigate the question of an afterlife without actually dying. I'll go ahead an rephrase your statement to make it conformant with logic:

Quote:

Swami meant to say:
"And as because having a perfect understanding of the after-life is an impossibility without dying...





Next,

Quote:

Swami said:
, I will adopt a pollyanna view of a perfect post-death-world called heaven to alleviate my fears, even though it is based on nothing but a handed-down story."




I'm glad you said this because this only proves my point,


Quote:

"It seems to me that alot of times 'logic party' extreamists' skepticism is more based on an emotional resentment toward the ideals of faith, then on rational judgement-- defying their own standard."




You resort to ad-hominems when you can't respond with a logical counter-argument, again-- showing that your motives are not free from emotion. It's a psuedo-logic.

The offer still stands; give me more convincing argument instead of mere sarcasm and you might succeed in changing my views (or at least you will prove yourself to have a rational thought process rather than just a talent for insult).


Edited by soulmotion (02/21/05 09:19 PM)


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3812661 - 02/21/05 07:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
The existance or non-existance of an afterlife is useless to ponder and irrelevant to our present situations (being alive).




LOGIC: The relevance of the reality of the afterlife depends on the reality of the afterlife itself.

What I mean is, if there is no afterlife then the subject of a life after death is TOTALLY irrelevant. However, if there is an afterlife then the question is TOTALLY relevant (depending on what type of existance it is, and wheather our mortal-lives effect our after-lives). Since it's not known for certain wheather or not there is an afterlife, all we can say is that the question is partially relevant.

This 'partial-relevance' makes sense if you think about it because, if you obsess over 'the next life' to the extent that you can't focus on this life, then you're not likely to fufill the purpose of this life --if there is one. On the same token, if you totally neglect the question of an afterlife and you then you find out at death that there is one, and that your condition in that existance was dependant on the quality of your life here in mortality, well, then, you could be in trouble.

BTW, I agree with you in the sense that I don't think a person should decide to be a 'good' person because they look forward to a reward in the afterlife, they should do 'good', in my opinion, for the satisfaction of doing 'good'. I think the reason the ideal of an afterlife is important is because it keeps us guessing, so that we don't become overconfident about our destiny.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3813111 - 02/21/05 09:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've listened to people tell me, with total sincerity and sobriety, that they witnessed their own death on a hospital bed and met their dead relatives in an afterlife, and then returned to their body.
I have heard many false stories told with total sincerity. A sick person's vision tells me nothing of an after-life. I have had a fever of 104.5 and had vivid deleriums.

There you go, there's something to investigate.
Listening to a story is NOT investigating. Even if it cracks the door open, there is no place further to go.

There are many ways to investigate the question of an afterlife without actually dying.
Please list the many ways. So far you have listed zero.

You resort to ad-hominems when you can't respond with a logical counter-argument,
Ad hominems? Sarcasm? What are you talking about? Pollyanna means "enthusiatic optimism". Heaven is usually painted as light, love and perfection. The word accurately fits the standard description.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Swami]
    #3813448 - 02/21/05 10:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I have heard many false stories told with total sincerity. A sick person's vision tells me nothing of an after-life. I have had a fever of 104.5 and had vivid deleriums.




What matters is that the person is telling you what they believed they expirienced. The fact that people have delusions only means that their testimony can't be considered conclusive proof, it's only evidence-- but it's still evidence! If you had a witness on the stand at a murder trial who testifies they saw the defendant commit a murder, it would be a pretty weak defense to suggest that they could've imagined the murder merely because people are sometimes delusional.

Quote:

Listening to a story is NOT investigating. Even if it cracks the door open, there is no place further to go.




Or maybe there is a fear of the unknown that prevents entrance. It's a stereotype that 'believers' are 'scared' into believing, and that their faith is a security blanket. I think it's just as likely that skeptics are scared to consider the existance of things that they can't touch, smell, hear, see, or taste. Sensory perception appears to be your security blanket.


Quote:

Please list the many ways. So far you have listed zero.




1st, you can approach the subject historically:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-76
http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptafterlife.html

2nd, here are some articles, if you care to investigate them:

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/1truth28.html
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2000%2F10%2F22%2Fnsoul22.xml
http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/myers1.html

Near-Death Expirience Research Foundation:

http://www.nderf.org/

http://www.near-death.com/
http://www.childpastlives.org/
http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson_articles.htm
http://www.victorzammit.com/

Even if, after examining of the evidence presented, you decide that life after death is unlikely, you may say that you don't believe in it, but you can't logically say in is impossible or that it doesn't exist anymore than I can say with certainty that it does. Logically you have to concede that there is more evidence for the reality of an after life than there is against, since there is 'zero' evidence that there isn't life after death, only a lack of evidence in the affirmative.

Quote:

Ad hominems? Sarcasm? What are you talking about? Pollyanna means "enthusiatic optimism". Heaven is usually painted as light, love and perfection. The word accurately fits the standard description.




You'll notice that in my original post I made no attempt to describe or speculate about what this possible afterlife is like. Because you can't find enough material in my original post to fault, you have to put words in my mouth (figuratively speaking) such as, "I will adopt a pollyanna view of...heaven to alleviate my fears..." Basically you have to frame me as a simpleton before you can prosecute.

I have to admit, those last arguments were a lot more sensible than the first attempt. If you care to take another stab at it, I'd be happy to oblige.


Edited by soulmotion (02/21/05 10:53 PM)


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3814292 - 02/22/05 12:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

soulmotion, you are a true philosopher. :heart:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3814657 - 02/22/05 01:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What matters is that the person is telling you what they believed they expirienced.
I believe their sincerity by-and-large, but so what? I have seen 40,000 silly people pray before a bank glass window with their sincerity thinking it was a sign from the Virgin Mary instead of a manufacturing defect.

If you had a witness on the stand at a murder trial who testifies they saw the defendant commit a murder, it would be a pretty weak defense to suggest that they could've imagined the murder merely because people are sometimes delusional.
Why are you comparing eyewitness testimony in consensus reality to a "dream" picture in someone's head? They are not remotely the same.

It's a stereotype that 'believers' are 'scared' into believing, and that their faith is a security blanket.
Apparently you have not really listened to many preachers.

I think it's just as likely that skeptics are scared to consider the existance of things that they can't touch, smell, hear, see, or taste.
That doesn't make sense. Why would one be afraid of Paradise?

Sensory perception appears to be your security blanket.
It is impossible to detect ANYTHING without some detection device. This is pretty obvious.

2nd, here are some articles, if you care to investigate them:
You make the classic "believer" error when addressing me. I have easily read over 3000 books including about 8 on the near-death experience. A fact that eludes almost all near-death believers is that stories that do not fit the standard NDE profile (such as those of great darkness and fear) are usually not included in the anthology. This makes for a nice self-reinforcing myth. Do a littel research yourself on Bettie Eadie (sp?).

You'll notice that in my original post I made no attempt to describe or speculate about what this possible afterlife is like.
I painted the classic Christian NDE picture.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3814791 - 02/22/05 02:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Logically you have to concede that there is more evidence for the reality of an after life than there is against, since there is 'zero' evidence that there isn't life after death, only a lack of evidence in the affirmative.


careful, because by that basis there is more evidence for the reality of anything you care to mention. for example, there's more evidence for the reality of the existence of an invisible, immaterial race of humanoid beings coexisting on planet earth with us, than this is of that not existing, simply because I have put it forth. if I were to claim to sincerely believe this invisible humanoid race exists, would that make them exist more than otherwise?

Since it's not known for certain wheather or not there is an afterlife, all we can say is that the question is partially relevant.

that's pretty good. I like that 'partial relevance'. what it means is, if you want to, look into it. if you don't want to, don't. makes sense to me.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Swami]
    #3815305 - 02/22/05 03:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said (not in this order):
Why are you comparing eyewitness testimony in consensus reality to a "dream" picture in someone's head? They are not remotely the same.




I like this term, 'consensus reality'. Life after death is a 'consensus reality' among the percentage of the population who have first-hand expirience with this phenomenon. Naturally, you struggle to find terminology for a post-mortal consciousness calling it a "'dream' picture", but whatever you call it, it is just as real to those who expirienced it as witnessing a murder would be. If they had, in their lifetime, both witnessed a murder and had a 'near-death expirience' they would presumably say that they were equally 'real'. That's what gives credibility to these 'near-death expiriences'-- the fact that people assert that the expirience is no less real than their daily life.

Quote:

I believe their sincerity by-and-large, but so what? I have seen 40,000 silly people pray before a bank glass window with their sincerity thinking it was a sign from the Virgin Mary instead of a manufacturing defect.




By the same token, why do you compare individual accounts of near death expiriences to a group of people paying devotion an object of religious significance? To use your own language, "They are not remotely the same". Having a near death expirience is not a voluntary thing, as worshiping an object is voluntary. I remember watching an interview with a man who told of his near-death expirience. He told the interviewer that he was a complete atheist before his expirience. After the expirience, when he was brought back to life, he decided to re-evaluate his atheism. Religious worship involves the faith of the practitioner; in a near death expirience the person involved is more 'along for the ride' which, again, gives it more credibility-- the fact that it was not solicited.

Quote:


Apparently you have not really listened to many preachers.





I don't doubt that many religious adhearants are rather coerced to believe because of gloom and doom preachers. All I said, though, was that it is a stereotype that believers are compelled to believe, in other words, it's not true for all cases.

Quote:


It is impossible to detect ANYTHING without some detection device. This is pretty obvious.





Agreed; Faith is a detection device, but it is a sublte sense, which is why it is not often exersized.

Quote:


You make the classic "believer" error when addressing me. I have easily read over 3000 books including about 8 on the near-death experience...





hmmmm... that's funny, weren't you suggesting earlier that there was nothing to investigate about near death expiriences? Now you're saying that you've read 8 books on the subject. I think that if 8 entire books can be written about a subject, it's fair to say that it can be investigated.

Quote:

...A fact that eludes almost all near-death believers is that stories that do not fit the standard NDE profile (such as those of great darkness and fear) are usually not included in the anthology. This makes for a nice self-reinforcing myth. Do a littel research yourself on Bettie Eadie (sp?).




The fact that not all near death expiriences are not the same doesn't discredit the possibility of near-death expiriences. Everyone's expiriences in life are different in many ways, why would the after-life be any different? In fact, a religious person could easily reconcile the accounts of "great darkness and fear" by saying that those individuals were in some type of punishment for their mortal crimes. Don't forget, I never made a case that the after-life should prove anything about this world's religion; my original post merely demonstrates that it congruent with logic to consider the possibility of an afterlife.

Quote:

I painted the classic Christian NDE picture.




Again, the classic 'Christian NDE picture' doesn't pertain to my original post.

Quote:

That doesn't make sense. Why would one be afraid of Paradise?




Same as above. This statement assumes I was reffering the generic model of the afterlife in my post. I've met many 'spiritualists' as they preffer to call themselves, who don't even necessarily believe in God, heaven, or hell, but they believe that human consciousness continues after death.

Another round?


Edited by soulmotion (02/22/05 04:48 AM)


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3815366 - 02/22/05 04:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
careful, because by that basis there is more evidence for the reality of anything you care to mention. for example, there's more evidence for the reality of the existence of an invisible, immaterial race of humanoid beings coexisting on planet earth with us, than this is of that not existing, simply because I have put it forth. if I were to claim to sincerely believe this invisible humanoid race exists, would that make them exist more than otherwise?




May I append your last sentance to clarify?

would that make them more likely to exist than otherwise?

Yes.

If nobody ever told of a race of invisible humanoids, and there was no such phenomenon expirienced by anyone to suggest that this was the case, than the evidence (as far as we would have knowledge of) that there are invisible humanoids would be zero.

As soon as you claim to have had a revelation, or whatever, that there are invisible humanoids, your testimony becomes 1 peice of evidence. If you weigh your 1 peice of evidence against the billions of people who haven't expirienced the same phenomenon, then it doesn't amount to very much in the rest of the world, but it is still a valid peice of evidence nonetheless.

As for the subject of 'near-death expiriences', there appears to be a considerable amount of 'evidence' in the form of personal testimonies. Considerable enough to warrant the authorship of several websites, and apparently at least 8 books on the topic.

BTW, even if there is zero evidence for something, that doesn't mean it couldn't exist (it just means that the likelihood of it's existance is very minute).


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: The Infallible Possition [Re: soulmotion]
    #3815391 - 02/22/05 04:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I liked it that the printing press allowed a relatively free flow of the Gutenberg bible unto the dirty people. But even that was a translated bit so why not just go mystic hardcore. If Buddha sat beneath a tree and found that shit, then, maybe we should all just find a phone booth outside the kwiki mart and wait?


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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Re: good to know tibetan meditation but there are other functional spiritual practices [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3815565 - 02/22/05 05:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Believing that 'one will manage' is nothing like the jhana's of absorbtion, you're grossly mistaken. What you are discribing is not any like jhana's of meditation, it sounds more like something you'd read in a modern day self-help book.

Jhana mediuation isnt about 'easing the self', its about calming ones mind, which has a different emphasis which is not based on the self-grasping attitude.

If one belives that one will manage then one is not observing oneself, in fact one still belives in the notion of a self-existing entity.

This is also limited, and is a sort of confidence based on self-grasping more than anything else, which is also dellusional and can bring little in the way of spiritual progress.

Comforting and easing the 'self' is dellusional as one is creating more limiting comfort zones, that block any real spiritual progress.

Devotion is a much more effective tool.


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: good to know tibetan meditation but there are other functional spiritual practices [Re: Sinbad]
    #3815755 - 02/22/05 07:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

sinbad,
you just don't want to see anything differently than from a tibetan buddhist context - but every point of view which exists outside of your context is not basically delusional. you might wish you could dispense with everything so easily. I refer to comfort and easing as a result of the practice and I am sure you wont deny the results of meditation, the purpose is personal quest, but I am not sure you are ready to allow that others have as much quest in them as you do.

to "mark delusion" is a personal technique for meditative practice or concentration or to help to return to the point of concentration as in "the distraction is delusional" or unworthy; but for purposes of discussion it is a primitive way to discount what another person says.

if you think that no-one can have equivalent experiences, I will let you continue - no need to tangle myself up in trying to open your peripheral vision. (namaste - means I respect the spirit in you - and assumes you have equivalent experiences)

others,
about after death, it is fair to ask and wonder but not too good to get rigid about theories - there is plenty happenning right here in the forum that people cannot seem to agree upon. (more than semantically but not really more than attitude or habit)

respecting the memories of those who have passed and enjoying the bittersweet enui of our temporary presence here is not going to be enough for all people - what one sees is not the same as another.


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