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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
    #5932263 - 08/04/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice?

IMO and experience, yes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5932320 - 08/04/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think your response was a very good one in the circumstances.

Something that hasn't really been said is that bodybuilders are very, very good at manipulating their body, it's not something easy to do, and certainly not just by "lifting weights." Bodybuilding can be a way of life, and is for some people ( namely professionals, fitness models, trainers etcetc )- it requires a lot of dedication, willpower and knowledge to do well.

Nutrition hasn't been mentioned here at all, and a good bodybuilder will have a very good understanding of his body's inner workings - specifically how many grams of protein/carbs/etcetctetc he needs, the form of intake that will work best, the timing of using ingested nutrients well and really just the details and facts of what will help him reach a certain goal with his body.

One of the things I find most beautiful in bodybuilding is both how personal it is, and how immediate and objective the results of your process are. In a sense, a bodybuilder is living proof of his beliefs, and as such your body can be a medium to explore certain beliefs. I almost want to attempt creating a system of ethics based purely on the objectivity of your body and its reactions just thinking about this stuff -- while the most immediate response is that such a system would be worthless for any sense of morality, I think exploring it would teach some very interesting things.

Your body serves as a common point for you on all the levels of your existence, and so it is something you will never be able to escape or successfully ignore. I think that in something like existentialism, accepting your own mortality absolutely ravages that philosophy and forces it to become something else like paradoxical absurdity or nihilism. In the same way, accepting the oneness of your body and mind forces you to consider other questions and problems.

Oh and as for steroids taking the fun out- steroid use is actually safe if you know what you're doing ( the negative side effects can be accounted for ). Really, I see it the same as any drug. Mushroom use has many recreational and existential uses, but using them poorly will hurt you both physically and mentally ( of course it would differ according to situation, but it remains generally true ).


I think overall the key here is that no matter what you're doing, you need to have room for exploration and education. Taking care of your body is something unavoidable as a physical being, and there's a lot of knowledge on the subject to help you make good decisions. Bodybuilding is sort of body-morphing, and taking self-care to the absolute physical limit. You'd be surprised at how mathematical and demanding the sport is, regardless of how stupid some of the people are in it ( there are scores of poorly informed "bodybuilders" who make very slow gains and are very verbal about doing things their way ).


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OfflinePed
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
    #5932457 - 08/04/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

>> I would propose that suffering results from refusing to accept reality, from struggling agansit the rip tide that reality is. One simply must accept their current situation, and navigate the flow that one is immersed within in order to reach one's destination.

Yes, but a person who is actually qualified to say this is a person who has realized the ultimate release of nirvana. Have we actually arrived at this realization? If we have not actually arrived here, does it make sense to start here? It does not, because that would mean rejecting a facet of our experience -- and this is the very same problem we are trying to solve by pondering such sentiments. Embracing these ideals without first embracing our unconscious tendency to reject them is putting the cart way, way before the horse.

Intellectually I'm quite familiar with the sort of ideas you've presented. They come to mind every day. But the simple fact remains that this state of aggitation which comes from struggling against one's own experience is persistent and deeply habituated. It is not enough to prop up an intellectual ideal and then attempt to live it -- this is against the flow, just as any lifestyle with ties to self-image tends to be. Incidentally, the physical, psychological, and pharmacological self-abuse seen within body-building circles is also a lifestyle tangled up with self-image. The counterproductive effects are evident, be them more exaggerated than those suffered by us brainy types who are caught in the same trap spiritually and emotionally.

In spite of the fact that I've studied many in-depth religious and philosophical articulations of the phrase "go with the flow", today my main practice remains in observing how thoroughly I frustrate myself by going against the flow. Usually this is done retrospectively, however sometimes I will deliberately oppose unchangable circumstances, just to see what the effect will be. In this way I get in touch with the continuum of views and intentions that is my being. Only once I am properly grounded in that will I be able to effect lasting and meaningful change.

Explorative rejection of reality can be a remarkably entertaining and liberating practice.


--------------------


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
    #5934017 - 08/05/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Oh and as for steroids taking the fun out- steroid use is actually safe if you know what you're doing ( the negative side effects can be accounted for ). Really, I see it the same as any drug.




So if you REALLY know what you're doing, then you can use more steroids and still be safe?  :tongue:

Competitive athletes use banned performance enhancing drugs because all they really care about is winning, and many are willing to cheat in order to win.

I think Barry Bonds epitomizes the modern athlete, arrogant, egotistical, and willing to cheat to get that home run record or win the next game.  And he's got a lot of company in baseball players.  Of course, these guys have been told they are great for so long they start believing their own press.   

The U.S. bike rider's unexplained but for a banned drug spike in testosterone the day in  the Tour De France that turned around his abysmal performance the previous day and led him to "win" is yet another such story playing out.  This guy seemed the perfect humble guy from PA, a Mennonite for Christ sakes, the guy with the bad hip who suffers through, the hard worker who blew it one day then gritted his teeth and rode through to the win.

Or, he is using banned performance enhancing drugs and loaded up the night before the big ride and got caught...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (08/05/06 09:39 AM)


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5934121 - 08/05/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

there are physical limits in your body that simply cannot be broken without steroids. Do you really think it's about winning? Then why do people use them when they have no intention of competing? Also, there are a number of competitions where competitors are thoroughly checked to make sure they have not been using steroids. There are also natural-only bodybuilders.

The people who are pro-level competitors in the field aren't doing it simply to win a prize- the heart will not allow the body to do certain things. They are, however, willing to sacrifice themselves to further themselves for their art. That, I can respect.

I really don't want this to become about steroids, the initial post had nothing to do with them. They are extremely debatable and better off in another thread altogether.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
    #5934250 - 08/05/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"Willing to sacrifice themselves to further themselves for their art"

How noble. True martyrs to the cause of big bulging muscles.

I think steroid use and wierd justifications of it like the above are exactly what this thread is all about - the relationship of body building and ego.

What could possibly be more egotistical than punishing your body with weight and unnatural hormones, then starve and dehydrate so you can "look good" for the contest where you strut around and pose and show off all those bulging muscles?

Football has some of the same ego characteristics, but face it, with the helmets and uniforms and from up in the stands it's hard for the football players to "look good" and show off all those bulging muscles they got from pumping iron and taking steroids.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5934266 - 08/05/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I think steroid use and wierd justifications of it like the above are exactly what this thread is all about - the relationship of body building and ego. 




I disagree. No activitity is inherently resultant from a strive to "enhance the ego". Even if someone was consuming steriods (didn't know that bodybuilding and steriod use necessarily went together, either), it doesn't necessitate the intentions and reasoning for the individual doing it.

What if Bruno was simply slamming those weights and chugging those chemicals in order to win the Gay Tough Man contest in order to obtain the prize money to buy his mother a new house, eh? Sounds like a selfless act to me. :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5934290 - 08/05/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

punishing? unnatural horomones? wtf are you talking about? They aren't unhealthy beasts. OK let's reduce bodybuilding to the most common state in further discussions in this thread - naturals. I include natural supplements in this as well ( examples: whey protein, creatine) as you're not getting it.

What is bodybuilding? Is it the use of steroids to look big? no. It's taking care of your body to foster growth as much as possible. They don't do it to look good, they don't care about that anymore. If they wanted to look good they'd stop when they have a model's body.

Or, what about powerlifters? Do you find them more agreeable with your standards? They're interested in exploiting their body to maximize strength.

Honestly, even in the bodybuilding community steroids are looked down upon and their use is only suggested once the body's natural limit is reached.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
    #5934305 - 08/05/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I am a Sheldonian Mesoectomorph, which means that I'm mostly Ectomorphic (slender, small-boned, hairy) but I have some secondary Mesomorphy (shoulders broader than trunk, some ability for muscles to dilate rather than maintain elongation). I do resistance work on a Bowflex XTL and use a Bowflex TC5000 for cardio-vascular exercise. I attempt to maximize my Mesomorphy because it is a necessary counterbalance to the Ectomorphy which would prefer to simply perform Hatha Yoga - to stretch and accentuate the elongation of the muscles which typifies Ectomorphy. Strengthening my musculature feels good and is good for me. Certain aches and pains develop if I do not do resistance work, just as back pain develops if I do not practice Hatha Yoga. I do not exercise to 'show off,' but bodily health helps maintain the embodied-ego which is foundational to bodily survival. Health does not translate into ego-inflation.


In 1 Timothy 4:8, St. Paul allegedly makes this comment:

"For bodily exercise is profitable to little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."

Of course, bodily exercise was representative of the Greek pagan mentality, the Olympics, and veneration of the human form, so Paul's alleged words may have been intended as a curt dismissal of that entire mentality in one brief sentence and a positing of the spiritual life.

Buddhism is always found in a social-cultural context, whether one considers a Chinese or Tibetan martial art, or a purely contemplative setting, or the practice of the Inner Fire in the Himalayas, more than likely some form of physical exercise will be part of a healthy lifestyle. Certainly it won't be the narcissistic competition-based 'sport' that makes for muscle and fitness magazines, or for gender identity disorders among females who drastically alter their anatomy and physiology by masculinizing their endocrine system.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
    #5934404 - 08/05/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

As I happen to have a degree in food science, I "get it" when it comes to supplements and additives, whether natural or unnatural. I personally limit my consumption of supplements to a good food based male oriented multivitamim/mineral/enzyme about 4x a week.

As for exercise, getting healthy in body and mind is best done in my opinion outdoors. Hike, bike, ski, windsurf, etc. are all low ego low impact (hopefully) exercises that improve your mental condition. I doubt a gym will have the same effect. Plus that freakin techno music at high volume has been known to cause Roid Rage.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5934418 - 08/05/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
...bike....




Nothing like a nice bike ride to get that testoterone boosted. :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: Ped]
    #5934448 - 08/05/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Yes, but a person who is actually qualified to say this is a person who has realized the ultimate release of nirvana.  Have we actually arrived at this realization?




Its the truth, and it is self-evident. Apparently we have arrived at this realization. :smirk:

Quote:


  If we have not actually arrived here, does it make sense to start here?




Its the reality of the matter, so yes, certainly. One accepts truth for what it is. Then one begins to dissolve obstructions that prevent one from existing in a state of constant realization of the truth. One does not need to continue engaging in suffering to learn from it if one realizes that one does not need to suffer. No sense in sticking one's hand in the flames if one already knows what will happen and why it will happen.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
    #5935048 - 08/05/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I am referring to anyone who lifts weights regularly with the only intent being to enhance their own appearance (not those who train for sports).




Lifting weights for purely cosmetic reasons is no more or less contradictory of Buddhist practices than anything else we do in order to enhance our appearance.  How much does eyebrow-shaping, hair- styling, jewelry-wearing behavior contradict Buddhist practices?  :shrug:

However, there are many other reasons to lift weights than the two you give (looks or sports).  Most people who lift probably do so for a variety of reasons--health, appearance, energy, bone-strengthening, metabolism-boosting, fitness for activities, anti-aging, etc...

I lift weights several times per week for all of those reasons, and I don't find it contradictory to the spiritual aspects of my life. 

Perhaps the real question is whether or not one is developing the spiritual side of their life in addition to trying to improve their appearance.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5936037 - 08/06/06 01:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

>> One accepts truth for what it is. Then one begins to dissolve obstructions that prevent one from existing in a state of constant realization of the truth.

Well, sure. We don't really disagree.

There is a difference between knowing something and being it. That's what I've been trying to illustrate. Understanding something is not the same as being it. If we feel that we have embodied a certain wisdom simply because we have comprehended it, we have confused the map with the territory, and have obstructed ourself from awareness of our own spiritual whereabouts. Such a state is one of paralysis, and remedying it is nine tenths of the journey.


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: Ped]
    #5936417 - 08/06/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well certainly, but simply expressing the concept does not imply that one is not actively working with oneself to fully realize it on a personal level. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5936703 - 08/06/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well certainly!  :grin:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5937785 - 08/06/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

soulcircus said:
i don't think you can bodybuild and follow a spiritual path at all.
i use to bodybuild several months ago, but realised it was only an ego boost for egotistical purposes and i only ever wanted to get bigger. at the time it was fun and rewarding, but at the same time i was so self critical and obsessed, i realised it was a ridiculous attempt at greater hapyness




I also have to completely disagree with this. Your problem was that bodybuilding became an egotistical practice above all else. "Bodybuilding" and selfishness are a sensitive topic. In your case, that's all it was. But for thousands of others, it IS their spiritual path.

www.animalpak.com/journey

Read Frank McGrath's log. Sure, it's a little bit hyped, but you should get the picture. Not everyone lifts for fame, and a hell of a lot of bodybuilders don't fit the stereotype that they're trying to lift to impress others.

In my case, I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about my body because I'm in control, and I'm not lifting for them. Some people might look at me and think "pff, small fry", but I can't be bothered with their negativity. Another very small percentage of people who understand what I do might look at me and wonder how I got to where I am, what kind of diet I have, what training routine I follow, etc. And those are the kinds of people who do understand that bodybuilding isn't about pumping up your ego. The optimistic person who lifts for no one but themselves. They're trying to push theirselves to the limit and then some, and it's amazingly rewarding to see hours of blood and sweat start to make changes in your body. It's like artwork, only a million times harder and you're the canvas.

Like others have said, your body is very important. It's your physical temple, the vessel which harbors the mind or spirit so why not take care of it? I can't really say why I lift... at first it was ego, but you know what? I never got big really fast. In fact, I'm still a 160lb ectomorph and I don't know if I'll ever be massive. If I just wanted to be the alpha male, I'd be a baller and wear huge chains and stupid looking clothing like a peacock.

I set out goals and conquer them. It keeps me going, and my whole life is starting to pick up around me as well. It's pretty neat. Bodybuilding takes an incredibly amount of discipline and I apologize for every thinking that it was just for stupid brutes. I'm willing to bet that almost none of the self-proclaimed eggheads on here or in society can do what bodybuilders do. It's as much as science as it is an art.

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
So if you REALLY know what you're doing, then you can use more steroids and still be safe? :tongue:

Competitive athletes use banned performance enhancing drugs because all they really care about is winning, and many are willing to cheat in order to win.





The NCAA has banned a lot of stupid shit. Using steroids is not "cheating" as you put it.

Think of it this way, you can eat dog shit 6 times a day or you can strategically eat to attain your goals. This is a lot better than eating dog shit. And with proper supplementation, you can help to propel your gains.

If you supplement using an androgenic anabolic steroid like D-Bol, deca durabolin, or designer steroids, you're just doing the same thing to an extreme. I'm not going to argue that diet/supplements are in a different class than AAS's, but what's wrong with the desire to achieve superiority? Isn't that what competing is all about? If you know something, is it wrong to exploit a route that others won't take?

If there is a substance ban in place then I would agree that it's cheating (and the cheaters should be disqualified). However, what if it's not a naturals contest? The rules have changed and I wouldn't say that using steroids constitutes a cheat in any way.

And yes, you CAN use steroids safely. I've researched this out of curiosity and my pessimism quickly turned to optimism, and I'll admit there's even a huge amount of temptation. You CAN, CAN, CAN supplement with steroids and have VERY little side effects, if any. There's always room for error, but it's far safer than a lot of people think.

If you supplement with proper support supplements for liver and heart before you take a cycle, while you take a cycle and afterwards, your lipids will stay in check, cholesterol will stay in check, etc. And if you take a proper Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) like tamaxofin or nolvadex, you can be sure that your free test and SHBG test aren't aromatised into estrogen. Soooo..... if you take a non-methylated steroid, you have decreased your risk or liver damage to the point where it's like taking an aspirin. You won't have blood pressure, cholesterol or heart problems because you're taking things like milk thistle, red yeast rice and nettle root and other supports. In regards to negative effects on your little guys, you won't have problems with natural test shut down because you have tapered doses layed out for your blood type and from blood test results, plus gynecomastia won't be a problem because you won't have test being converted into estrogen.

Although I've yet to do a cycle, I haven't put off the though. I wouldn't seriously consider it unless I've had far more gains, done a million times more research and laid things out as perfect as you can get in a real-world situation. What IS a shame is the lame asses who just takes steroids and don't even have a PCT. Well, natural selection should take care of that problems. It's just like kids in highschool dosing mushrooms and crack to see how fucked up they can get. And I don't know anyone on here who would condone such stupidity. Likewise, I don't condone bloody assholes doing cycles without taking care of themselves. Hurts them, their families and drains money from health care. (not to mention fills in stereotypes that aren't easily defended, just like trying to justify marijuana smoking, etc)

If it makes any difference, after lifting and eating my meals, I wind down with a few minutes of meditation, followed by a walk with my dog around the block. I really do think that the path I'm taking is still as much spiritual as it was years ago when I was obsessed with psychedelics. I don't have as much time to relish in these sorts of activities, but I still find the time to acheive satisfaction in the gym and outside of the gym as well.



I hardly even smoke dope or shroom anymore, but my mental prowess has definitely not been blunted by the pounding clanks and banging of steel plates. :bongload:


--------------------
When the stress burns my brain it's like acid raindrops
maryjane is the only thing that makes the pain stop


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: browndustin]
    #5937903 - 08/06/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You forgot about the Rammstein musikk. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5937963 - 08/06/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

lol!  :headbang:


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5938213 - 08/06/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
So if you REALLY know what you're doing, then you can use more steroids and still be safe?  :tongue:



Not "more" steroids, but you can use them safely, yes.  Ronnie Coleman, Arnold Schwarzenegger, most PROFESSIONAL body builders today don't make a secret out of juicing up. Who cares?  Why is one naturally produced chemical (creatine) put on a pedestal and other ones are banned? 
Quote:


Competitive athletes use banned performance enhancing drugs because all they really care about is winning, and many are willing to cheat in order to win.



"Cheating" is bullshit.  You can't "cheat" unless you do something that others aren't able to do.  I think that all athletes should be allowed to use steroids now, if they want to.  Thats like saying that since our knowledge of nutrition has come far in the past 60 years, we've got to prevent todays athletes from "Cheating" and following a balanced diet.
Quote:


Or, he is using banned performance enhancing drugs and loaded up the night before the big ride and got caught...



"performance enhancing drugs"?  What if the guy drank some caffeine?  Isn't Gatorade a performance enhancing substance?  Geez, who cares?


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Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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