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PowerTrip
Polypharmaceutical Shaman



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Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice?
#5929789 - 08/03/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you feel that people who pursue bodybuilding do so as a means to enhance their own ego? When I say bodybuilding I am referring to anyone who lifts weights regularly with the only intent being to enhance their own appearance (not those who train for sports). Do bodybuilding and Buddhist practices contradict each other on some level?
-------------------- I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life
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Fospher
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5929987 - 08/03/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Bodybuilding for the sake of looks is definetely contradictory to Buddhist practices. Even if it's not for a sense of superiority, but just for self-esteem, in that alone it signifies the independence of the self.
With that said, I work out on a daily basis. I run or swim, then do resistance training. Besides bench lift, which I've started fairly recently (I usually go by myself - so not having a spotter can be a problem when you can't lift something that can potentially crush your ribs), I don't work with any dumbells. My workouts follow Bruce Lee's ideaology of balancing out your muscles - because if your body is in sync even if you do get knocked down - your body will bring you right back up.
I work out hardcore, I lift till it hurts, and I run till I'm about to pass out. I do it to compensate for the indulgences of my day, and it returns it gives me energy. Constant exercise, exposure to nature, a strict, minimal diet, and meditation are the recipe for impeccable intent.
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Cracka_X
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5929992 - 08/03/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's a funny question which I think, for the most part, is true. I'm not bodybulding for the sake of body building as a collegiate athlete but I do feel like I'm on a different level afterwards. Scientifically, when you lift you release testosterone. Certain lifts like the bench press will emit more testosterone and build your testosterone pools. Therefore giving you MORE testosterone. The physiology of the body is wild on what you bring to it and how it'll respond. It's always adapting.
But if Buddha sat around all day just meditating, unless he let out tremendous testosterone mentally while meditating, I guess you could say these two practices contradict each other.
I've yet to read any of those recommended books but from what I understand about Chinese philosophy is that you love fellow man and live with nature.. etc.. And the meditation is introspective benefitting the self in a way. Bodybuilding is a distraction almost from problems, or vent. I mean you give a very broad question.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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it stars saddam
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5930006 - 08/03/06 10:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just think for yourself and question authority (even if that authority is Buddha). If lifting weights makes you feel good about yourself then just do it instead of stressing out over whether or not you are constantly living within the confines of the dogmatic Buddhist doctrine. Geez, what a sad way to go through life.
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Gomp
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5930729 - 08/04/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
PowerTrip said: Do you feel that people who pursue bodybuilding do so as a means to enhance their own ego? When I say bodybuilding I am referring to anyone who lifts weights regularly with the only intent being to enhance their own appearance (not those who train for sports). Do bodybuilding and Buddhist practices contradict each other on some level?
I'd say, there are spiritual Body Builders, that simply enjoy their own appearance.. ..that know they are their own-self-doing, together with the rest, ... Ecterea...
Maybe the ego thing kicks in, when they do it to display their body, mainly/ONLY for others? To gain status?!
Cool post! I like that/this notion. And I kind of see the ego as a liver or a hearth, .. you don't remove it, .. Maybe I define Ego; as The self SEPARATED from the others.. And think that; as we merge, there is no reason to loose our identity..
"Both, ...and then some!" -Unknown :p
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-------------------- Disclaimer!?
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5930806 - 08/04/06 08:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Competitive body builders will do just about anything to "win" their pose offs including steroids. Vanity with a capital V.
The "best" part is when the finalist heavyweight guys are all on stage together strutting around and posing. Before I found out it was largely done with drugs that will kill many of these people at an early age, I had fun watching it. Now it's like watching Barry Bonds going after the home run record. The thrill is gone.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5931117 - 08/04/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The thrill is gone in watching a mushroom user go for enlightenment, as well, eh? Using drugs = no thrill. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5931140 - 08/04/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
PowerTrip said: Do you feel that people who pursue bodybuilding do so as a means to enhance their own ego? When I say bodybuilding I am referring to anyone who lifts weights regularly with the only intent being to enhance their own appearance (not those who train for sports).
The only difference that distinguishes someone who actively, consistently works with weights in order to develop their muscles and someone who simply works with weights in order to enhance their own image is one of intention.
I do not comprehend how "enhancing one's own appearance" is necessarily done to "enhance one's own ego". I assume that, when you refer to an ego, you are speaking of one's sense of self and identity. One can "enhance one's own appearance" while not motivated by a need to "enhance one's sense of identity".
Do some people lift weights in order to fufill a desire to appear a certain way to others, to feel better about themselves, etc.? Its certainly possible. There isn't anything inherently wrong in doing so. Its their choice, rooted in delusion or egoic needs or not.
Do I feel as though individuals who do lift weights are doing so in order to "enhance their ego"? As I have already stated, it is simply a question of intent, which would require a review of each individual, eh?
Quote:
Do bodybuilding and Buddhist practices contradict each other on some level?
Not as far as I can tell. As long as Buddhists still do stuff, then bodybuilding would not contradict their practices. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5931326 - 08/04/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Bodybuilders are very aware of their bodies. I think that taking care of your body is a very "Zen" thing to do, I also think that you can work out addictively and it's bad. However, most guys I know that work out seriously are very much so happy with it. Being active and energetic is a good thing.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5931335 - 08/04/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poster: fireworks_god Subject: Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice?
The thrill is gone in watching a mushroom user go for enlightenment, as well, eh? Using drugs = no thrill.
Peace.
"Watching a mushroom user go for enlightenment"
I can just imagine the cable program Psilly People...
"Yes he's upped the dosage yet again, this time he's REALLY going to be enlightened. We should be able to watch the glow off him with our special enlightenment detection camera."
And now a word from our sponsor...
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5931353 - 08/04/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nothing like a little Roid Rage at the Buddhist Temple to really test the monks...
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5931464 - 08/04/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5931575 - 08/04/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i simply wish to chime in on the title of the topic, rather than look at the discussion.
hope that's okay.
I think body-building can definitely inflate self-esteem and tie one into the physical aspect of their psyche moreso than other parts. However I think an integral part of human living in the third dimension involves maintaing your ability to survive and do so flourishingly by keeping your body well taken care of and up to its full potential.
The results are similar, an inflatoin, but what is inflated depends upon the goal. For instance yoga is definitely a form of body building, yet it is part of a path to complete liberation. However yoga can be done spiritually, or simply physically as a workout. Or both.
Either way, on either path, the obvious is a large increase in self esteem. Self esteem is a function of the lower chakras, as is healthy body, however without the lower chakras open and functioning it is hard to pave the way to ego transcendence in the higher chakras.
So basically, one may work out and body build only to conform to his standards of beauty and improve his esteem at having reached those results through a disciplined regime. This could be seen as soley ego building. Another could body build for almost the exact same reasons, and yet it is only because they wish to become in tune with and more pleased with their physical vessel for the exploration of conscisousness, and for this person though he also gets the boost in self esteem from looking good, it is simply a part of his quest for wholeness.
And wholeness does not mean neglecting the body. That is one way to blast into the realms of transcended ego, but it is a very harsh way, and even with a loosened, dying, disappearing, or perhaps nonexistant ego, one can still function in the physical if he chooses.
At least, I believe this to be so. If we base ego on the chakra system, you could have any possible configuration of alignments. Open crown, open root, centered in the solar plexus and aware of the world.... closed crown, closed eye, open throat, heart, root....
who knows what. It depends on how you want to work.
So body building is really just a tool for people to use. If their only goal is bodily and wordly satisfaction, that is all they will get from it. But it is likely an integral part of spiritual living too. Not necessarily lifting tons of weights and getting "built" so much as just fine tuning and respecting your body and encouragingi it to operate at its higher potentials.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5931766 - 08/04/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
soulcircus said: i don't think you can bodybuild and follow a spiritual path at all.
Can you drive a car and follow a spiritual path? Can you walk around your home and follow a spiritual path? What great distinction exists that implies that one cannot work with weights and follow "a spiritual path"? Apparently developing one's physical body and engaging in healthy behavior is not spiritual. 
Quote:
i use to bodybuild several months ago, but realised it was only an ego boost for egotistical purposes and i only ever wanted to get bigger. at the time it was fun and rewarding, but at the same time i was so self critical and obsessed, i realised it was a ridiculous attempt at greater hapyness
So you had problems engaging in an activity without inflating your own ego, so, therefore, the activity itself is to blame. This isn't exactly a reasonable conclusion. Its like saying one cannot golf and be spiritual because you personally only golfed in order to show off to others. 
I would encourage in developing a perspective that is not centered in one's own identity. One cannot let their perspective of reality be obscured by their own sense of identity and walk "a spiritual path". 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5931829 - 08/04/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
soulcircus said: i don't think you can bodybuild and follow a spiritual path at all. i use to bodybuild several months ago, but realised it was only an ego boost for egotistical purposes and i only ever wanted to get bigger. at the time it was fun and rewarding, but at the same time i was so self critical and obsessed, i realised it was a ridiculous attempt at greater hapyness
Entirely false. Just because it happens to you, don't claim to speak as if you are channeling the Buddha. If you are totally aware of something, you can do it and still be on the path. If you are aware that strength training makes your bones stronger, your joints more flexible and your muscles stronger, then why wouldn't you do it? Are you in shape at all? I think that some people hide behing the "it's just not as enlightened as I am" as an excuse.
Also, the entire first question was flawed. The question asked if bodybuilders who lift "just to look good" are too ego-based. First, their is nothing wrong with looking good. Secondly, not every bodybuilder cares specifically about looking good. I prefer to be strong, really, so that I can do more things in the physical world. If I wasn't into lifting weights, I'd have never have been able to travel to some of the places that I've gone, i just wouldn't have been physically capable of rock climbign all day long with a 40 lb pack on.
Just like anything in life, you can do it addictively and in a manner that clings to ego, or you can do it and be completely in the present and enjoy it for what it's worth. A guy who is benching 550 lbs can be in there and totally aware and in the present while some guy wearing robes and shaving his head could be doing it to massage his ego and "show" how he is so spiritual
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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RRRR
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5931830 - 08/04/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
soulcircus said: i don't think you can bodybuild and follow a spiritual path at all.
Can you drive a car and follow a spiritual path? Can you walk around your home and follow a spiritual path? What great distinction exists that implies that one cannot work with weights and follow "a spiritual path"? Apparently developing one's physical body and engaging in healthy behavior is not spiritual. 
Quote:
i use to bodybuild several months ago, but realised it was only an ego boost for egotistical purposes and i only ever wanted to get bigger. at the time it was fun and rewarding, but at the same time i was so self critical and obsessed, i realised it was a ridiculous attempt at greater hapyness
So you had problems engaging in an activity without inflating your own ego, so, therefore, the activity itself is to blame. This isn't exactly a reasonable conclusion. Its like saying one cannot golf and be spiritual because you personally only golfed in order to show off to others. 
I would encourage in developing a perspective that is not centered in one's own identity. One cannot let their perspective of reality be obscured by their own sense of identity and walk "a spiritual path". 
 Peace.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
#5932049 - 08/04/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
xDuckYouSuckerx said: Just like anything in life, you can do it addictively and in a manner that clings to ego, or you can do it and be completely in the present and enjoy it for what it's worth. A guy who is benching 550 lbs can be in there and totally aware and in the present while some guy wearing robes and shaving his head could be doing it to massage his ego and "show" how he is so spiritual

 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ped
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: Fospher]
#5932094 - 08/04/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> Bodybuilding for the sake of looks is definetely contradictory to Buddhist practices. Even if it's not for a sense of superiority, but just for self-esteem, in that alone it signifies the independence of the self.
Many people are drawn to the self-annihilating practices of Buddhism because they are lacking in self-esteem. If this is the case, then it may be helpful for them to undertake a self-esteem boosting activity such as body building for the sake of cultivating a more moderate view of self. Sometimes it is helpful to build up the ego before tearing it down. Since self-hatred and self-aggrandization are two aspects of the same phenomenon -- an exaggerated view of self -- it is sometimes helpful to first correct one extreme by engaging in another.
Most important before starting any kind of spiritual journey is to be thoroughly aware of where you are. The only way to get where you're going is to start where you are. Shantideva's advice is that we remain natural while changing our intentions. From here there can be no contradictions.
--------------------
Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: Ped]
#5932115 - 08/04/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: The only way to get where you're going is to start where you are.
Direct perception of the self, and complete acceptance of reality as it has been presented. 
I would propose that suffering results from refusing to accept reality, from struggling agansit the rip tide that reality is. One simply must accept their current situation, and navigate the flow that one is immersed within in order to reach one's destination.
Eh? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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alarmist
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5932202 - 08/04/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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if it makes you feel better, i say go for it
personally, i love to push myself as much as i can which is why i enjoy running so much and why i began to recently weightlift again...it takes some mental strength to tell yourelf that you are able to run for that one extra mile or that you will squeeze out that one last rep or go until failure
i see nothing wrong with it at all
-------------------- there's no love in fear
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Icelander
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5932263 - 08/04/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice?
IMO and experience, yes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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vampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5932320 - 08/04/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think your response was a very good one in the circumstances.
Something that hasn't really been said is that bodybuilders are very, very good at manipulating their body, it's not something easy to do, and certainly not just by "lifting weights." Bodybuilding can be a way of life, and is for some people ( namely professionals, fitness models, trainers etcetc )- it requires a lot of dedication, willpower and knowledge to do well.
Nutrition hasn't been mentioned here at all, and a good bodybuilder will have a very good understanding of his body's inner workings - specifically how many grams of protein/carbs/etcetctetc he needs, the form of intake that will work best, the timing of using ingested nutrients well and really just the details and facts of what will help him reach a certain goal with his body.
One of the things I find most beautiful in bodybuilding is both how personal it is, and how immediate and objective the results of your process are. In a sense, a bodybuilder is living proof of his beliefs, and as such your body can be a medium to explore certain beliefs. I almost want to attempt creating a system of ethics based purely on the objectivity of your body and its reactions just thinking about this stuff -- while the most immediate response is that such a system would be worthless for any sense of morality, I think exploring it would teach some very interesting things.
Your body serves as a common point for you on all the levels of your existence, and so it is something you will never be able to escape or successfully ignore. I think that in something like existentialism, accepting your own mortality absolutely ravages that philosophy and forces it to become something else like paradoxical absurdity or nihilism. In the same way, accepting the oneness of your body and mind forces you to consider other questions and problems.
Oh and as for steroids taking the fun out- steroid use is actually safe if you know what you're doing ( the negative side effects can be accounted for ). Really, I see it the same as any drug. Mushroom use has many recreational and existential uses, but using them poorly will hurt you both physically and mentally ( of course it would differ according to situation, but it remains generally true ).
I think overall the key here is that no matter what you're doing, you need to have room for exploration and education. Taking care of your body is something unavoidable as a physical being, and there's a lot of knowledge on the subject to help you make good decisions. Bodybuilding is sort of body-morphing, and taking self-care to the absolute physical limit. You'd be surprised at how mathematical and demanding the sport is, regardless of how stupid some of the people are in it ( there are scores of poorly informed "bodybuilders" who make very slow gains and are very verbal about doing things their way ).
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Ped
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
#5932457 - 08/04/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> I would propose that suffering results from refusing to accept reality, from struggling agansit the rip tide that reality is. One simply must accept their current situation, and navigate the flow that one is immersed within in order to reach one's destination.
Yes, but a person who is actually qualified to say this is a person who has realized the ultimate release of nirvana. Have we actually arrived at this realization? If we have not actually arrived here, does it make sense to start here? It does not, because that would mean rejecting a facet of our experience -- and this is the very same problem we are trying to solve by pondering such sentiments. Embracing these ideals without first embracing our unconscious tendency to reject them is putting the cart way, way before the horse.
Intellectually I'm quite familiar with the sort of ideas you've presented. They come to mind every day. But the simple fact remains that this state of aggitation which comes from struggling against one's own experience is persistent and deeply habituated. It is not enough to prop up an intellectual ideal and then attempt to live it -- this is against the flow, just as any lifestyle with ties to self-image tends to be. Incidentally, the physical, psychological, and pharmacological self-abuse seen within body-building circles is also a lifestyle tangled up with self-image. The counterproductive effects are evident, be them more exaggerated than those suffered by us brainy types who are caught in the same trap spiritually and emotionally.
In spite of the fact that I've studied many in-depth religious and philosophical articulations of the phrase "go with the flow", today my main practice remains in observing how thoroughly I frustrate myself by going against the flow. Usually this is done retrospectively, however sometimes I will deliberately oppose unchangable circumstances, just to see what the effect will be. In this way I get in touch with the continuum of views and intentions that is my being. Only once I am properly grounded in that will I be able to effect lasting and meaningful change.
Explorative rejection of reality can be a remarkably entertaining and liberating practice.
--------------------
Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
#5934017 - 08/05/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oh and as for steroids taking the fun out- steroid use is actually safe if you know what you're doing ( the negative side effects can be accounted for ). Really, I see it the same as any drug.
So if you REALLY know what you're doing, then you can use more steroids and still be safe? 
Competitive athletes use banned performance enhancing drugs because all they really care about is winning, and many are willing to cheat in order to win.
I think Barry Bonds epitomizes the modern athlete, arrogant, egotistical, and willing to cheat to get that home run record or win the next game. And he's got a lot of company in baseball players. Of course, these guys have been told they are great for so long they start believing their own press.
The U.S. bike rider's unexplained but for a banned drug spike in testosterone the day in the Tour De France that turned around his abysmal performance the previous day and led him to "win" is yet another such story playing out. This guy seemed the perfect humble guy from PA, a Mennonite for Christ sakes, the guy with the bad hip who suffers through, the hard worker who blew it one day then gritted his teeth and rode through to the win.
Or, he is using banned performance enhancing drugs and loaded up the night before the big ride and got caught...
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (08/05/06 09:39 AM)
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vampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5934121 - 08/05/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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there are physical limits in your body that simply cannot be broken without steroids. Do you really think it's about winning? Then why do people use them when they have no intention of competing? Also, there are a number of competitions where competitors are thoroughly checked to make sure they have not been using steroids. There are also natural-only bodybuilders.
The people who are pro-level competitors in the field aren't doing it simply to win a prize- the heart will not allow the body to do certain things. They are, however, willing to sacrifice themselves to further themselves for their art. That, I can respect.
I really don't want this to become about steroids, the initial post had nothing to do with them. They are extremely debatable and better off in another thread altogether.
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
#5934250 - 08/05/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Willing to sacrifice themselves to further themselves for their art"
How noble. True martyrs to the cause of big bulging muscles.
I think steroid use and wierd justifications of it like the above are exactly what this thread is all about - the relationship of body building and ego.
What could possibly be more egotistical than punishing your body with weight and unnatural hormones, then starve and dehydrate so you can "look good" for the contest where you strut around and pose and show off all those bulging muscles?
Football has some of the same ego characteristics, but face it, with the helmets and uniforms and from up in the stands it's hard for the football players to "look good" and show off all those bulging muscles they got from pumping iron and taking steroids.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5934266 - 08/05/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: I think steroid use and wierd justifications of it like the above are exactly what this thread is all about - the relationship of body building and ego.
I disagree. No activitity is inherently resultant from a strive to "enhance the ego". Even if someone was consuming steriods (didn't know that bodybuilding and steriod use necessarily went together, either), it doesn't necessitate the intentions and reasoning for the individual doing it.
What if Bruno was simply slamming those weights and chugging those chemicals in order to win the Gay Tough Man contest in order to obtain the prize money to buy his mother a new house, eh? Sounds like a selfless act to me. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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vampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5934290 - 08/05/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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punishing? unnatural horomones? wtf are you talking about? They aren't unhealthy beasts. OK let's reduce bodybuilding to the most common state in further discussions in this thread - naturals. I include natural supplements in this as well ( examples: whey protein, creatine) as you're not getting it.
What is bodybuilding? Is it the use of steroids to look big? no. It's taking care of your body to foster growth as much as possible. They don't do it to look good, they don't care about that anymore. If they wanted to look good they'd stop when they have a model's body.
Or, what about powerlifters? Do you find them more agreeable with your standards? They're interested in exploiting their body to maximize strength.
Honestly, even in the bodybuilding community steroids are looked down upon and their use is only suggested once the body's natural limit is reached.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5934305 - 08/05/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am a Sheldonian Mesoectomorph, which means that I'm mostly Ectomorphic (slender, small-boned, hairy) but I have some secondary Mesomorphy (shoulders broader than trunk, some ability for muscles to dilate rather than maintain elongation). I do resistance work on a Bowflex XTL and use a Bowflex TC5000 for cardio-vascular exercise. I attempt to maximize my Mesomorphy because it is a necessary counterbalance to the Ectomorphy which would prefer to simply perform Hatha Yoga - to stretch and accentuate the elongation of the muscles which typifies Ectomorphy. Strengthening my musculature feels good and is good for me. Certain aches and pains develop if I do not do resistance work, just as back pain develops if I do not practice Hatha Yoga. I do not exercise to 'show off,' but bodily health helps maintain the embodied-ego which is foundational to bodily survival. Health does not translate into ego-inflation.
In 1 Timothy 4:8, St. Paul allegedly makes this comment:
"For bodily exercise is profitable to little: but godliness is profitable to all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."
Of course, bodily exercise was representative of the Greek pagan mentality, the Olympics, and veneration of the human form, so Paul's alleged words may have been intended as a curt dismissal of that entire mentality in one brief sentence and a positing of the spiritual life.
Buddhism is always found in a social-cultural context, whether one considers a Chinese or Tibetan martial art, or a purely contemplative setting, or the practice of the Inner Fire in the Himalayas, more than likely some form of physical exercise will be part of a healthy lifestyle. Certainly it won't be the narcissistic competition-based 'sport' that makes for muscle and fitness magazines, or for gender identity disorders among females who drastically alter their anatomy and physiology by masculinizing their endocrine system.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: vampirism]
#5934404 - 08/05/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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As I happen to have a degree in food science, I "get it" when it comes to supplements and additives, whether natural or unnatural. I personally limit my consumption of supplements to a good food based male oriented multivitamim/mineral/enzyme about 4x a week.
As for exercise, getting healthy in body and mind is best done in my opinion outdoors. Hike, bike, ski, windsurf, etc. are all low ego low impact (hopefully) exercises that improve your mental condition. I doubt a gym will have the same effect. Plus that freakin techno music at high volume has been known to cause Roid Rage.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5934418 - 08/05/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: ...bike....
Nothing like a nice bike ride to get that testoterone boosted. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: Ped]
#5934448 - 08/05/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said: Yes, but a person who is actually qualified to say this is a person who has realized the ultimate release of nirvana. Have we actually arrived at this realization?
Its the truth, and it is self-evident. Apparently we have arrived at this realization. 
Quote:
If we have not actually arrived here, does it make sense to start here?
Its the reality of the matter, so yes, certainly. One accepts truth for what it is. Then one begins to dissolve obstructions that prevent one from existing in a state of constant realization of the truth. One does not need to continue engaging in suffering to learn from it if one realizes that one does not need to suffer. No sense in sticking one's hand in the flames if one already knows what will happen and why it will happen.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: PowerTrip]
#5935048 - 08/05/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I am referring to anyone who lifts weights regularly with the only intent being to enhance their own appearance (not those who train for sports).
Lifting weights for purely cosmetic reasons is no more or less contradictory of Buddhist practices than anything else we do in order to enhance our appearance. How much does eyebrow-shaping, hair- styling, jewelry-wearing behavior contradict Buddhist practices? 
However, there are many other reasons to lift weights than the two you give (looks or sports). Most people who lift probably do so for a variety of reasons--health, appearance, energy, bone-strengthening, metabolism-boosting, fitness for activities, anti-aging, etc...
I lift weights several times per week for all of those reasons, and I don't find it contradictory to the spiritual aspects of my life.
Perhaps the real question is whether or not one is developing the spiritual side of their life in addition to trying to improve their appearance.
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Ped
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5936037 - 08/06/06 01:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> One accepts truth for what it is. Then one begins to dissolve obstructions that prevent one from existing in a state of constant realization of the truth.
Well, sure. We don't really disagree.
There is a difference between knowing something and being it. That's what I've been trying to illustrate. Understanding something is not the same as being it. If we feel that we have embodied a certain wisdom simply because we have comprehended it, we have confused the map with the territory, and have obstructed ourself from awareness of our own spiritual whereabouts. Such a state is one of paralysis, and remedying it is nine tenths of the journey.
--------------------
Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: Ped]
#5936417 - 08/06/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well certainly, but simply expressing the concept does not imply that one is not actively working with oneself to fully realize it on a personal level. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5936703 - 08/06/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well certainly!
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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browndustin
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5937785 - 08/06/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
soulcircus said: i don't think you can bodybuild and follow a spiritual path at all. i use to bodybuild several months ago, but realised it was only an ego boost for egotistical purposes and i only ever wanted to get bigger. at the time it was fun and rewarding, but at the same time i was so self critical and obsessed, i realised it was a ridiculous attempt at greater hapyness
I also have to completely disagree with this. Your problem was that bodybuilding became an egotistical practice above all else. "Bodybuilding" and selfishness are a sensitive topic. In your case, that's all it was. But for thousands of others, it IS their spiritual path.
www.animalpak.com/journey
Read Frank McGrath's log. Sure, it's a little bit hyped, but you should get the picture. Not everyone lifts for fame, and a hell of a lot of bodybuilders don't fit the stereotype that they're trying to lift to impress others.
In my case, I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about my body because I'm in control, and I'm not lifting for them. Some people might look at me and think "pff, small fry", but I can't be bothered with their negativity. Another very small percentage of people who understand what I do might look at me and wonder how I got to where I am, what kind of diet I have, what training routine I follow, etc. And those are the kinds of people who do understand that bodybuilding isn't about pumping up your ego. The optimistic person who lifts for no one but themselves. They're trying to push theirselves to the limit and then some, and it's amazingly rewarding to see hours of blood and sweat start to make changes in your body. It's like artwork, only a million times harder and you're the canvas.
Like others have said, your body is very important. It's your physical temple, the vessel which harbors the mind or spirit so why not take care of it? I can't really say why I lift... at first it was ego, but you know what? I never got big really fast. In fact, I'm still a 160lb ectomorph and I don't know if I'll ever be massive. If I just wanted to be the alpha male, I'd be a baller and wear huge chains and stupid looking clothing like a peacock.
I set out goals and conquer them. It keeps me going, and my whole life is starting to pick up around me as well. It's pretty neat. Bodybuilding takes an incredibly amount of discipline and I apologize for every thinking that it was just for stupid brutes. I'm willing to bet that almost none of the self-proclaimed eggheads on here or in society can do what bodybuilders do. It's as much as science as it is an art.
Quote:
LunarEclipse said: So if you REALLY know what you're doing, then you can use more steroids and still be safe? 
Competitive athletes use banned performance enhancing drugs because all they really care about is winning, and many are willing to cheat in order to win.
The NCAA has banned a lot of stupid shit. Using steroids is not "cheating" as you put it.
Think of it this way, you can eat dog shit 6 times a day or you can strategically eat to attain your goals. This is a lot better than eating dog shit. And with proper supplementation, you can help to propel your gains.
If you supplement using an androgenic anabolic steroid like D-Bol, deca durabolin, or designer steroids, you're just doing the same thing to an extreme. I'm not going to argue that diet/supplements are in a different class than AAS's, but what's wrong with the desire to achieve superiority? Isn't that what competing is all about? If you know something, is it wrong to exploit a route that others won't take?
If there is a substance ban in place then I would agree that it's cheating (and the cheaters should be disqualified). However, what if it's not a naturals contest? The rules have changed and I wouldn't say that using steroids constitutes a cheat in any way.
And yes, you CAN use steroids safely. I've researched this out of curiosity and my pessimism quickly turned to optimism, and I'll admit there's even a huge amount of temptation. You CAN, CAN, CAN supplement with steroids and have VERY little side effects, if any. There's always room for error, but it's far safer than a lot of people think.
If you supplement with proper support supplements for liver and heart before you take a cycle, while you take a cycle and afterwards, your lipids will stay in check, cholesterol will stay in check, etc. And if you take a proper Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) like tamaxofin or nolvadex, you can be sure that your free test and SHBG test aren't aromatised into estrogen. Soooo..... if you take a non-methylated steroid, you have decreased your risk or liver damage to the point where it's like taking an aspirin. You won't have blood pressure, cholesterol or heart problems because you're taking things like milk thistle, red yeast rice and nettle root and other supports. In regards to negative effects on your little guys, you won't have problems with natural test shut down because you have tapered doses layed out for your blood type and from blood test results, plus gynecomastia won't be a problem because you won't have test being converted into estrogen.
Although I've yet to do a cycle, I haven't put off the though. I wouldn't seriously consider it unless I've had far more gains, done a million times more research and laid things out as perfect as you can get in a real-world situation. What IS a shame is the lame asses who just takes steroids and don't even have a PCT. Well, natural selection should take care of that problems. It's just like kids in highschool dosing mushrooms and crack to see how fucked up they can get. And I don't know anyone on here who would condone such stupidity. Likewise, I don't condone bloody assholes doing cycles without taking care of themselves. Hurts them, their families and drains money from health care. (not to mention fills in stereotypes that aren't easily defended, just like trying to justify marijuana smoking, etc)
If it makes any difference, after lifting and eating my meals, I wind down with a few minutes of meditation, followed by a walk with my dog around the block. I really do think that the path I'm taking is still as much spiritual as it was years ago when I was obsessed with psychedelics. I don't have as much time to relish in these sorts of activities, but I still find the time to acheive satisfaction in the gym and outside of the gym as well.
I hardly even smoke dope or shroom anymore, but my mental prowess has definitely not been blunted by the pounding clanks and banging of steel plates.
-------------------- When the stress burns my brain it's like acid raindrops maryjane is the only thing that makes the pain stop
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: browndustin]
#5937903 - 08/06/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You forgot about the Rammstein musikk. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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browndustin
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5937963 - 08/06/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol!
-------------------- When the stress burns my brain it's like acid raindrops maryjane is the only thing that makes the pain stop
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5938213 - 08/06/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: So if you REALLY know what you're doing, then you can use more steroids and still be safe? 
Not "more" steroids, but you can use them safely, yes. Ronnie Coleman, Arnold Schwarzenegger, most PROFESSIONAL body builders today don't make a secret out of juicing up. Who cares? Why is one naturally produced chemical (creatine) put on a pedestal and other ones are banned?
Quote:
Competitive athletes use banned performance enhancing drugs because all they really care about is winning, and many are willing to cheat in order to win.
"Cheating" is bullshit. You can't "cheat" unless you do something that others aren't able to do. I think that all athletes should be allowed to use steroids now, if they want to. Thats like saying that since our knowledge of nutrition has come far in the past 60 years, we've got to prevent todays athletes from "Cheating" and following a balanced diet.
Quote:
Or, he is using banned performance enhancing drugs and loaded up the night before the big ride and got caught...
"performance enhancing drugs"? What if the guy drank some caffeine? Isn't Gatorade a performance enhancing substance? Geez, who cares?
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
#5939904 - 08/07/06 05:12 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5940106 - 08/07/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
soulcircus said: to all those that disagreed with what i said, i consider body building to be sculpting your body purely for aesthetic reasons, lifting weights for other health related reasons is a different matter
And why exactly is sculpting one's body purely for aesthetic reasons a negative thing, dare I ask?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5940126 - 08/07/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Posted on Sun, Aug. 06, 2006 Landis' lies are even more harmful than his cheating By Phil Sheridan
The Philadelphia Inquirer
Cheating is bad for sports. That's obvious. It's the reason leagues and associations and Olympic committees work so hard to catch dopers. What's not quite so obvious is that lying about cheating is even more damaging than the cheating itself.
And that brings us, unfortunately, to Floyd Landis.
His wide-eyed portrayal of outraged innocence may earn him an Emmy Award, but it probably won't let him hang on to his Tour de France title. When news broke that Landis tested for abnormally high levels of testosterone after his breakthrough stage 17 performance, the cyclist pleaded with the public for the benefit of the doubt.
He deserved it. Everyone does. The principle of presumed innocence is vital to the way our democracy operates.
A lot of things have happened since that first shocking news hit. None of it makes Landis look particularly good.
First, he and his team of doctors and lawyers ventured a series of explanations, each sillier than the one before it. Landis' levels were out of whack because of medication he took for a thyroid condition or the cortisone he received for pain. He drank Jack Daniel's the night before. His levels are naturally high. Or he was dehydrated. Yeah, that's it. Dehydrated.
The second and most devastating development was a The New York Times report, since confirmed by Landis' camp, that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. That blew a hole through every possible excuse.
The science behind the testing is complex. The meaning is breathtakingly simple.
Floyd Landis is busted. Stone-cold, flat-out busted.
Cheating to win the Tour de France is wrong. Lying and lying and lying about it is infinitely worse for all sports and for every athlete.
Use Landis' own logic. He said he knew it would be hard for people to believe him because of all the lying and cheating that had gone on before. Landis acknowledged that he would have trouble believing someone else in the same situation.
Why? Because they all lie when they're caught.
So what did Landis accomplish? Next time an athlete tests positive and looks wide-eyed and innocent into the camera, it is going to be that much more difficult to believe him or her. The list of athletes who were caught and who toyed with the public's trust by denying they cheated just got one name longer.
Shot putter C.J. Hunter, the former husband and coach of Marion Jones, said he took legal supplements tainted by illegal compounds. A lie.
Sprinter Kelli White said she took a medication to battle narcolepsy. A lie.
Sprinter Ben Johnson said he must have been the victim of sabotage. A lie.
Rafael Palmeiro scolded Congress and said he'd never used steroids. A lie.
Landis should learn from the mistake of Barry Bonds. If Bonds had come clean when the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative story broke two years ago, his name and reputation likely would be saved by now. Instead a grand jury is considering whether he committed perjury.
You can imagine a scenario that explains why Landis might have decided to cheat back on July 20. It doesn't excuse cheating, but it allows for some compassion and understanding.
On July 19, Landis had a terrible day that he admitted made him feel tremendous pressure. He was the leader of the Phonak team, and that one awful day had taken him and his mates out of contention. He felt so bad and so far out of the race that he skipped his usual regimen and drank beer and whiskey with his friends.
Remember, this was probably Landis' one and only chance to win this race. Lance Armstrong had dominated the Tour for the previous seven years, and Landis is planning to have surgery on his arthritic hip. There's no guarantee he'll ever be as strong a rider as he was last month.
So with all that on his shoulders, in that moment of weakness, you can imagine him deciding to cheat just this one time. A little testosterone patch and maybe he could earn back some of the lost time in the mountain passes of stage 17.
He won the stage.
Afterward, according to the Associated Press, he said, "I didn't expect it to work quite that well."
Those words have a whole different shade of meaning now.
You can understand the pressure to cheat, especially in a sport in which it's reasonable to assume everyone else is doing something to gain an edge. You can understand and even forgive someone who gives in to that temptation.
There is no scenario that excuses the lying and the damage it does to the credibility of every athlete in every sport. They can take Landis' title away, but there is no penalty for his most serious offense.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5940132 - 08/07/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ultimately, he knew that it was his last chance to win the race in his life, and his desire to win, coupled with his self-doubt over his ability to win, brought him to decide to cheat, even if he knew that the glory wouldn't last long.
Unless he truly was a fucking moron and thought that he had a chance that the tests would not detect the chemicals.
What an exquisite role model. Humans are such foolish monkeys. Accepting reality shouldn't be nearly as difficult for us to do as we make it. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
#5940171 - 08/07/06 09:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
Edited by soulcircus (08/07/06 09:10 AM)
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5940183 - 08/07/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I read in a bicycle blog that there was NO WAY anyone would take testosterone and think they wouldn't get caught.
Plus, over and over people have said that the boost from taking testosterone the day before the race would be little. It's something that would "help" you over a longer time frame to get stronger. Wierd he would take it the day before if that's what he did.
Anyway, the synthetic testosterone they found pretty much nails it as to cheating. The comment he made about "I didn't expect it to work quite that well" was interesting also.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (08/07/06 09:14 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5940208 - 08/07/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
soulcircus said: i beleive that the reasons which motivate people to body build are negativly influeced because i think they stem from insecurities (such as attention, feel of dominance, being to short/thin etc etc) and won't trully allow you to follow a spiritual path effectivly until you have stopped this.
I sincerely doubt this. What you propose may exist as a possibility that explains certain individuals intentions, but it clearly does not apply to everyone who "bodybuilds", possibly not even most.
Those who advance aesthetics could be simply doing it for aesthetics sake. Do artists paint due to insecurity?
Quote:
i think to take a more effective step down the spiritual path requires accepting how you already are, and not being too obsessed about your body
Accepting how one already is does not mean that one is not completely free to change oneself, especially considering the fact that we all exist in a state of constant change. I also do not comprehend how "obsession about your body" necessarily applies to bodybuilding, either. I work one job that sometimes consumes far more than eight hours of almost every day - am I obsessed? I live with the same woman and the same animals every single day - am I obsessed with them?
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
#5940270 - 08/07/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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Cherk
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5940446 - 08/07/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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with the right understanding any action you perform could be ascetic in terms of disciplining the mind-body connection and the bodies response to stress
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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Fospher
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5940508 - 08/07/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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LunarEclipse said: ...Plus that freakin techno music at high volume has been known to cause Roid Rage.
You being sarcastic, or do you actually have sources to back that up? 'Cause I blast my psy-trance louder than anyone when I work out babe, and it gives my super powers.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5941016 - 08/07/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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soulcircus said: I'll have to disagree on this one.
Feel free to disagree, but your position is simply speculation, as one does not actually have any method by which one could determine the intentions of the individuals who engage in the action, on a level that would actually be capable of determining if the action itself implies that the individual has that intention or motivation.
My position is one that recognizes that any behavior that one exhibits, in itself, simply is, and that there could be a great multitude of possible motivations and intentions for one to exhibit that behavior. For instance, perhaps one bodybuilds in order to give their physique a more solid appearance, as one is a cop, and doing so affects criminal psychology (as in, hey buddy, you break the law, I am going to fuck you up lol). Simply engaging in the behavior implies absolutely nothing about the person's intentions and motivations, and that is the truth, so unless you are conducting a documented, scientific study into the nature of the intentions and motivations of those who bodybuild, your point is simply unsubstantiated speculation.
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Although this sounds feasable i don't beleive it could possibly be the case.
Well, without some manner with which to research into the personal, inner intention of a representative cross-section of bodybuilders, your belief is irrelevant. I am simply acknowledging it as a possibility, and the possibillity that even a considerable amount of bodybuilders are not motivated by the intentions that you have listed is a very real one. In the absence of credible research into the matter (yes, this is something that could definitely be researched into, to at least some extent, and it would have a lot more validity than one's opinions drawn from talking and observing some bodybuilders in an informal manner), no one has grounds upon which to declare the inner intentions of bodybuilders.
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i know i havn't put up much of a debate on this responce, but from reasearching bodybuilding for over a year and talking and talking to alot of bodybuilders over the net. Every single one of them seemed to be into it for an egotistical purpose
Conversation over the internet is not an incredibly accurate glimpse into the inner intentions of other individuals, and this has been directly evidenced and addressed in this particular forum many times over. I cannot imagine one accessing much data that could even substantiate that a single individual "seemed" to have "egotistical purpose", let alone an appropriate cross-section of bodybuilders. It is all simply speculation based on one's limited observations, observations that cannot truly give a glimpse of the mind of the individual who is said to be exhibiting such behavior.
My whole point is that there is no ground upon which to sustain such a proclamation of others nature. 
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sure we are free to change ourselves still, but for what reason would one going down a spiritual path, require to take up bodybuilding
Um, personal preference? The awareness and freedom that we, as human beings, have the great opportunity to engage in behavior that we prefer, and that we can fully experience that behavior without attachment?
Aren't you simply harboring a prejudice agansit a specific behavior that you do not personally prefer to engage in, and trying to dismiss its relevance to other peoples' lives by proposing that it simply could not be an aspect of a "spiritual path"? 
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it requires a whole change in lifestyle eg dietry changes which are generally not too healthy, and if you are going for it properly is extremely unhealthy.
I doubt it. Bodybuilding does not imply that one has to take drugs, and I would have to imagine that developing one's muscular system is an incredibly healthy thing to do. "Going for it properly" seems to simply mean "carrying it out to an amazing extreme", which certainly wouldn't be healthy in any circumstance.
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i beleive anyone that takes up bodybuilding will become far more self critical and eventually when going down the line slwoly one makes other lifestyle changes which can lead to an unhealthy obsession.
I apologize, but this is just an unfounded belief, in all its glory. It could similarily be applied to any activity or behavior that human beings engage in, and it would be just as inapplicable for them as well. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
#5941055 - 08/07/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
Edited by soulcircus (08/07/06 03:03 PM)
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vampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5941284 - 08/07/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well ok, let's tackle it this way - is changing anything for aesthetics, according to you, unspiritual?
What if someone is tired of being a scrawny stick figure and decides he'd like to have some muscle? I think the realization of something like that can be a very spiritual experience. I think that if you're unsatisifed with any aspect of yourself you should change it so that you're satisfied.
I'm confused as to what, specifically bothers you in the issue. Appealing to women isn't a horrible reason in itself, some might say it's one of the prime motivating factors in a human life.
A quote a much enjoy:
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"My God, to think that's life, that's why you get dressed and wash and make yourself pretty and all the books are written about that and you think about it all the time and finally that's what it is, you go to a room with somebody who half smothers you and ends up by wetting your stomach. I want to sleep." -Sartre, "Intimacy"
So, from certain standpoints sexuality might seem a weak reason. But I think regardless of good/bad, it keeps us going and is an undeniably strong motivator. Not to mention the spirituality of sexuality.
So what is it that bothers you? That a lot of bodybuilders seem spiritually unenlightened from your point of view? My best friend is a serious amateur bodybuilder and he's nothing like the stereotype at all. He does it simply because it's truly pleasurable for him, and it gives him something interesting to do. As a person, he's kind of quirky, nervous and maybe overambitious at times. He was always the sensitive/quiet type.
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: vampirism]
#5941566 - 08/07/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
Edited by soulcircus (08/07/06 05:48 PM)
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vampirism
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5941717 - 08/07/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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it seems you're under the impression of a linear spiritual path?
bodybuilding might be the last step for someone, someone who maybe was very opposed to it and saw no value in it?
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5941877 - 08/07/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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soulcircus said: not at all, aesthetics is fine depending on the reasons behind it.
Aesthetics is aesthetics. We aren't here, debating the spiritual value of the bright blue feathers of a bluejay, which natural selection has provided to the bluejay to fufill the purpose of attracting a mate, and I don't see the difference. 
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and maybe the answer is acceptance, thus changing the aspect of the non acceptance. some things will never leave you fully satisfied, until you realise happiness in the acceptance of the way it already is.
Perhaps it is important to realize that one needs to exist in a state of emotional fufillment, but yet this does not deny the fact that we are free to engage in behaviors that we enjoy partaking in.
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It's not a horrible reason itself, however, it does not help with your spiritual growth to beleive that you can find happiness through gaining attention/appeal from women due to physical appearance and looking for a partner on this basis too, this is more likely to vear you off course
Who implied that they are seeking attention from women by enhancing their physical appearance in order to derive a sense of happiness in doing so? Perhaps they are simply interested in gaining the attention of women, and are already happy?
Who the fuck knows? We are simply speculating on the intentions of people who do not actually exist, hypothetical figures who engage in certain behavior. Gaining a lot of ground, we are. 
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it doesn't bother me really, i didn't beleive that bodybuilders could continue what they do and effectivly follow a spiritual path.
Please, this is ridiculous. All it takes is a clear mind and some weights.
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however in pursueing the spiritual path much further down the line, bodybuilding in my opinion may still hinder growth.
Just as anything could still hinder growth if one allowed it. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Cherk
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fireworks_god]
#5941894 - 08/07/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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can't people do both?
I used to run on the treadmil thinking about ****** thinking about me
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5941969 - 08/07/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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soulcircus said: lol, i don't think i can put up a suitable argument by your standards 
Thus, you cannot even pretend that your assumptions as to the intentions and motivations of bodybuilders, and the subsequent conclusions that you have drawn, have the slightest resemblance of reality.
You have no information to provide that substantiates the baseless claims that most bodybuilders have "egotistical" intentions, or that they cannot follow a "spiritual path". It remains as speculative opinion, wide generalizations that cannot represent much of any truth.
You can form whatever speculative opinion that you wish, but realize that no one is going to accept it as representing reality, and also that it is not worth the time to attempt to suggest to others that it is representative of reality, as there is no discussion that can ensue that will validate it.
Perhaps attempting such is a hinderance on one's spiritual path? Perhaps you are simply engaging in this discussion because you are insecure, and wish to seek happiness in having others read your thoughts? See? When I don't know your mind, and only know your behavior, I could make any assumption of your intentions that I could conjure up, and it could be the true intention that you operate with.
I am not going to propose that anyone who posts on a spirituality and philosophy forum are not going to be able to effectively follow a spiritual path because their intentions in doing so are simply stemming from egotistical intentions, just as I am not going to allege that anyone who contributes to charity simply has the intention of being rewarded with recognition, or perhaps Heaven.
You cannot discuss and draw conclusions from the intentions of a generalized group of people in such a way - it flat out does not work.
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but i still stand by my beleifs as being applicable to a vast majority of bodybuilders.
Yes, you have established beliefs and firmly stood by them, even though you have absolutely no information that validates the intentions of the vast majority of body builders, and your conclusions are all dependant on their intention.
Its a brazen assumption, which lies at the heart of every unsubstantiated belief. You could not seriously propose to have even directly interacted with 1% of bodybuilders, which would at least be a starting point in forming assumptions on an aspect of others that is still not directly evidenced in their behavior.
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i thought it was simple psychology
You thought wrong, and at this point I will inquire as to your experience in the field of psychology. Please elaborate.
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and even with the example of the cop, it still demonstrates a purpose to invoke a sense of fear through domination which is egotistical.
Incorrect; it demonstrates whatever conclusion one wishes to form, as their purpose is not evident in their behavior itself. One can propose any possible explanation for why they are engaging in such behavior, and, since you have no manner in which to test or validate what their actual purpose or intention is, then you cannot possibly form a conclusion - as they all remain possible.
For example, in the hypothetical situation regarding the cop, he is not bodybuilding in order to "invoke a sense of fear through domination". Perhaps criminals interpret his appearance as something they should be afraid of, but his actual motivation in building his body was purely out of the interest of the innocent people in his neighborhood, who suffer from crime. His heart went out to them, with no regard for himself, and his bodybuilding was purely selfless - he only took into consideration the interest of others.
You can't propose differently - it is a hypothetical person that I have created for the purpose of illustrating a point, and that was his intention. By expressing this, it demonstrates that a wide range of motivations are possible and plausible, and that you are, quite honestly, not in any sort of position to form brazen assumptions concerning the intentions of an entire group of people.
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i'd gladly alter my beleif if i ever came across a single bodybuilder who i felt was not doing it for any egotistical purpose.
Personally, I find an important aspect of the spiritual path is ensuring that one's perspective of reality is, at all times, the most reflective of reality, as much as one is currently capable of.
Forming beliefs that assert the nature of reality in the manner that you have is a hinderance to this. One does not conclude that all bodybuilders are "egotistical" until one meets one that suspossedly is not. One simply acknowledges that, of the bodybuilders that one has met, they suspossedly are egotistical, and one does not form further conclusions that pertain to the rest of the incredible amount of bodybuilders that you have not interacted with.
I could proclaim that, based on my observations of you, your spiritual path is merely an egotistical one, and I would have just as much basis in doing so as you have in asserting that bodybuilders are egotistical. You can't have it both ways. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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soulcircus
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
#5943276 - 08/08/06 05:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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fromthemoon
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: soulcircus]
#5944048 - 08/08/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hello,
I workout. It took about 3 years of gym membership before I could actually go regularly. Once I got broken in, I learned how to workout and eat.
I'm sure some people workout for looks or ego, but not everyone. For some people, it's about health, feeling good, eating good, and understanding the human body.
What is wrong with learning how to eat for function verses flavor? What is wrong with understanding how your body works.
Working out can become addictive, be cause of the endorphins.
Once I learned how to workout, I started a four day split (working different body parts on different days within one week. This is very easy, it takes 90 minute at most four days a week. Cardio isn't needed really.
The advantages to knowing how to workout (weight train) is perminate weight loss - by building muscle, your metabolizum shoots up and stays up (enless you let yourself loose the muscle your built).
Eating is easy too. It craks me up, seeing all these diets out there and people starving themselves.
Eating is easy, high protien, moderate fats, low carbs (mainly only oatmeal, sweet potatoes, or brown rice) and eating five to six small meals each day. Staving is crazy, eating 6 meals is the hardest part.
Eating 6 meal alone will change the metabolizum - digestion burns lots of calories. One can even "feel the burn", like after a workout, just from eating throught the day - it's amazing.
Judging someone who worksout seem a little like sour grapes to me.
What is wrong with understanding your own body? That seem very very zen to me.
For me, nice muscles, low body fat, better sex, more joy, are just extra bonus points, not the only or main reason for working out.
I started simply to have more energy and feel better since at the time I was a little despressed.
-------------------- Look at the atoms in the air and allow your mind to see the other planes that coexists in the same physical space where you sit. There are vibrational strings in each and every atom containing infinite realities, universes, and dimensions. Multidimensional beings and entities are RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!!! Only gravity and mental energy can pass through these different atomic branes and mushrooms can break the mental/spiritual membranes separating one reality from the other. TAKE A LOOK!
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capliberty
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Re: Is bodybuilding really an ego building practice? [Re: fromthemoon]
#5944164 - 08/08/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The path of least resistence is the path of the sloth, as I say bodybuilding can build ones ego and confidence as it builds that ego, whether you want to incorporate [arrongant dickhead] into that equation or whether your ego has supplimented that role is a matter of easy debate, for one may think that one has extra latitude to flex off the pressure, that comes from social standing, but really that doesn't sucombvent the ill feelings that you create, without being aware of the rational that your puting forth,
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