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Offlineleery11
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Spirituality, shamanism?
    #5578372 - 05/02/06 03:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

This is mainly about cannabis but the question involves the concept of shamanism:
I'm going through some confusing times right now. Cannabis has taught me a lot of things but I come to ultimately wonder.....

on a spiritual path, where enlightenment is the goal and nothing else will do, is cannabis a hinderance, a shortcut, or neither?

Varying doctrines have varying answers. The Buddhists would be markedly opposed to the use of cannabis and would say that spiritual cultivation and cannabis cannot go hand in hand. However, what would Taoists say? What about Christians? Many scholars claim that cannabis was used frequently in Biblical times, such as "calamus" being a mistranlastion of "kaneh-bosm" and things like that......

The rastafarians believe it helps them greatly in their path. So then we wonder about shamanism............ that seems to be the main focal point. Is shamanism a road to enlightenment, or ultimately are you being put in touch only with your own brain, or with the consciousness of the planet?

Can cannabis take you to God, or does cannabis only take you to cannabis, or to gaia? Certainly there must be benefit in tuning into the planet's core consciousness, and cannabis can be seen as a vehicle for getting in touch with pacifism, shelving away bad habits conditioned by society and unplugging a bit from the matrix.

But where does a lifetime of smoking take you? Does it take you absolutely no WHERE with added legal risk......... what happens in the next life? Does it depend really on how you use it? Because there are so many extremes...... the stoner who bakes every single day and is a walking stupor.........

and the person who lights up and goes out in nature to try and feel peace. And the person in between...... who likes to use recreationally but doesn't really "abuse" it.... to them it's like a beer now and then.

What do you even begin to do to answer such questions? From a Buddhist perspective any and all desires create suffering, and cannabis is an extreme attachment.... the more you use cannabis to enjoy waking reality, the less waking reality is enjoyable sober.....

What do you all think? I think it can be a tool used for holy and evil aims and generally nothing so extreme..... but I wonder if it can be used to accelerate enlightenment or if it is a huge road block in the way.....


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (05/02/06 03:56 AM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: leery11]
    #5578657 - 05/02/06 05:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe some odd offshoot of shaman tribes smoked grass, but most didn't. The peacepipe, if that's what you are referring to, was tobacco, saying that they smoked pot out of it is a common rumour and misconception. Maybe what you're thinking of is Jimson Weed, or more precisely Datura, which in effect is nothing like marijuana.

I know Buddhists frown on any drug use, and I know that any Christian priest would as well.

My personal take? I like to smoke pot in extreme moderation.
On the weekends, ever since I quit drinking, I like to blaze down, listen to music and party. I would say that it puts me on another plane, it's like I see another dimension, and feel the waves of other people's existence.

Lately I've been slacking since I've been unemployed for the past two weeks and have been smoking pot at night daily - I like to smoke when I read - it throws me into whatever I'm reading.

Nontheless I refuse to smoke in the daytime, because the last thing I will become is a stoner. A stoner is the lowest of the low. Some people associate with being a musician, a skater, a nerd (the intellectual, not the living-in-parent's-basement video game kind) even, and that's fine because all those identities are associated with skill and knowledge. A stoner has nothing to offer society except that he's just going to sit around and do drugs. If he never existed the world would have been better off.

Grass is only good in moderation - but it's too easy to overindulge. My remedy is just buy a bag for the weekend and smoke it all, which will result in near-tripping highs and self-control for the weekdays ahead, so you can get shit done, homeboy.

:cool:


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: leery11]
    #5578687 - 05/02/06 05:15 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ultimately only you can decide if it's a help or a hindrance. If you go out of your way to find weed because you're averse to not being high, then it could be an issue. If you take things as they come and are just as content whether you're stoned or not, then it might not be an issue.

Entheogenic allies can be very helpful, just so long as you are receptive to them.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSeaShrooms
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: leery11]
    #5578692 - 05/02/06 05:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I personally belive ANYTHING in moderation has a perpose in the scheme of things, it makes sense that something that can dissassociate you from the ignorance of misconfusing ones subconcious and human emotion can help lead to enlightenment.

However i dont live as well as i talk, i smoke weed and drink almost every day, and do meth. Just being honest. I dont personally see the gain from the "normal" life.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #5578721 - 05/02/06 05:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Not a long time toker, but I smoked daily for about 2 years. That was until 4 months ago. Now I have to stay clean and piss twice a week for the next year. This is good in a way though.

Weed is what got me interested in spirituality. You say it helps in "shelving away bad habits conditioned by society." I agree. A little bud could probably help most people break the ice. I think that's all it did for me though. It acted as a catalyst, but I think it left me in a rut. I used it as a crutch, and it became an attachment. I don't know about you, but if I wasn't smoking, I was thinking about how a jay would make things better. The more I meditate throughout the day, the more I see weed as being unnecessary towards my spiritual development. I'm still not sure where I'm going with meditation, but my curiosity is what keeps me diligent in practicing. That and the fact weed is no longer an option right now. :laugh:


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: palmersc]
    #5579601 - 05/02/06 07:55 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Ultimately only you can decide if it's a help or a hindrance. If you go out of your way to find weed because you're averse to not being high, then it could be an issue. If you take things as they come and are just as content whether you're stoned or not, then it might not be an issue.




mmmm if you don't care at all there is no reaosn to use. Anyone who uses has an inclination to do so.

I see great merit in a clear mind abstinent from use.... I see great merit in occasionaly lighting it up .... whether that means til the point you are almost tripping.... or if it just means a small hit to get a new perspective....

Moderation is of course of the utmost importance..... but then the issue is ... if in moderation, when dealing with a psychedelic.... why not just stay sober and work on meditation? The thing with cannabis as a psychedelic is it doesn't seem nearly as powerful as the true psychedelics, rather it can be a psychedelic but only if you work with it and let it.
Quote:

palmersc said:
Not a long time toker, but I smoked daily for about 2 years. That was until 4 months ago. Now I have to stay clean and piss twice a week for the next year. This is good in a way though.

Weed is what got me interested in spirituality. You say it helps in "shelving away bad habits conditioned by society." I agree. A little bud could probably help most people break the ice. I think that's all it did for me though. It acted as a catalyst, but I think it left me in a rut. I used it as a crutch, and it became an attachment. I don't know about you, but if I wasn't smoking, I was thinking about how a jay would make things better. The more I meditate throughout the day, the more I see weed as being unnecessary towards my spiritual development. I'm still not sure where I'm going with meditation, but my curiosity is what keeps me diligent in practicing. That and the fact weed is no longer an option right now. :laugh:



I see it as a crutch too.... the only times I got high was when I sparked up.... meaning I never got "high" through meditation or anything else... and I even used weed to meditate (like 1/10th of a "stone" just a bare mininum to get the gears flowing and it worked great)

I guess the main reason I want it is because it makes life more enjoyable, easier, more fun, and more meaningful.

It is good both to have fun and to TRIP ...... but because I want to use it as much as I do and factored in with the fact that my doctor told me I'd have to not smoke for a year for my lungs to go back to normal..... I am not sure.

If this were a free nation I would go buy a J and test the waters.... but comitting to a huge supply means that you're gonna have to smoke or eat your way through the whole thing one way or another.

it also means uncertainty with authority figures while procuring the substance.

it's tricky. I know I can use it responsibly I am just not sure if it's right to use it at all...... when I could be dilligently trying to meditate every day.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Fospher]
    #5579660 - 05/02/06 08:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
The peacepipe, if that's what you are referring to, was tobacco, saying that they smoked pot out of it is a common rumour and misconception.




It may have been tobacco, but it was most certainly psychoactive tobacco. I've always wondered what smoking that would be like. :wink:

I've once read instructions on how to grow psychoactive tobacco... should have followed up! :grin:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5581895 - 05/03/06 12:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I have had times when I am at a greater translike meditative state than when I have smoked up. I think I gain insight in to life with a clear mind. When I do smoke I have an enjoyable time but my mind just isn't the same and i can not concentrate on anything. Who know, I'm sure other people have different experiences


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: leery11]
    #5581996 - 05/03/06 01:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Drugs don't bring enlightenment. I have seen many, many, deluded cannabis users....just as I have seen many deluded acid users. Charles Manson's disciples used lots of cannabis and acid. As a matter of fact, when taken as a whole, drug users tend to be more deluded than most. There are SOME drug users who have actively sought spiritual growth, just as there are SOME non-drug users who have sought spiritual growth. A drug will only confirm what you already know at the best. Can a drug deepen ones connection with nature and the self? Sure....just as fishing or mountain climbing (or any other activity) can. Spiritual growth is a function of the will...a drug doesn't do it for you. It all comes down to the intent of the individual. Many drug oriented seekers put all of the focus on the drug and little focus on the self. It is also worth noting that a CHRONIC (you know,...every day) drug user is only more spiritual because they are closer to entering the spirit world (death).


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Edited by Huehuecoyotl (05/03/06 01:39 AM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5582301 - 05/03/06 02:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Was it actually psychoactive or more calming effect like marijuana or passionflower?

And I'm sure that most tribes used standard tobacco - it was more of a gesture of social communion than the physical act of intaking a drug.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5582421 - 05/03/06 03:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

First of all, yes, the Charles Manson family smoked pot and dropped acid - but that's only because it was so commonplace at the times. Manson's drug of choice was Datura, which mainly is why his 'children' went so bizarre and interperted his vague explanations so seriously, such as the Sharon Tate murders.

Secondly, a psychedelic drug can definetly raise the awareness and teach one about himself, which can be used as a catalyst to reach levels of awareness that one would have a hard time reaching sober.
You can also reach those levels of spirituality by any activity involving concentration, altruism and dedication. However, it is near impossible to reach the levels that a psychedelic can catalyst you to without subjecting your life to spirituality, such as becoming a monk, and giving up modern way of living.

There's one thing that I've learned over the years though. When I say that a psychedelic is a catalyst, many would interpet that word in the sense of a tool of some sort. As something that could be manipulated by your will in any shape desired. I've learned over many trips that this is not true, and the drug, especially mushrooms takes on a persona of it's own, something that's ... outside your body and mind. This persona, the Teonanactl, can teach many things, but like a wise sensei, will retaliate with fury when treated with disrespect.

So far what I've found that only drugs (I'd like to refer to them as 'power plants' as the Native American terminology implies, but that doesn't encompass all that I'd like to discuss) with appointed entities to them can teach you.

These are the Teonanactl of Magic Psilocybin Mushrooms, Mescalito of Peyote (or mescaline), and the DMT entities. These three have taught me altruism, wisdom, and inner peace. Everything else in my book is just recreational, including LSD.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Fospher]
    #5582450 - 05/03/06 03:22 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
And I'm sure that most tribes used standard tobacco - it was more of a gesture of social communion than the physical act of intaking a drug.




What grounds to you have to base such statements as "oh, I'm sure it was this that..."?

Quote:

The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Substances said:
Whilst tobacco (Nicotiana spp.) is certainly a stimulant, in sufficient quantities (such as those used traditionally by American Indians, for which see below) it can have what, for all intents and purposes, may be called hallucinogenic properties. Certainly the South American Indian shamans see it as such, but this appears not just to be due to cultural conditioning (apprentice shamans are instructed beforehand of the nature of the visions they are going to see) but also to the actual chemistry of tobacco. Tobacco contains the harmala alkaloids harman and norharman, and the closely related harmine and harmaline are known hallucinogens. The levels of harman and horharman in cigarette smoke are between forty and 100 times greater than in tobacco leaf, showing that the burning of the plant generates this dramatic increase. The effects of nicotine on the central nervous system are still far from being understood. The hallucinogenic effects of tobacco become far more explicable when it is borne in mind that the strains of tobacco smokes by the American Indians were far more potent than our commercially produced varieties. Furthermore, the amounts consumed by them were often considerably greater than even the most ardent chain-smoker is able to manage.




Quote:

This Site  said:

TOBACCO
Nicotiana tabacum L.;
Nightshade family (Solanaceae)......

.... Harvesting: The curing of tobacco is an expert business, and will not be covered here. Furthermore, this process greatly reduces its alkaloid content. For hallucinogenic purposes, the leaves should be dried quickly, preferably in the shade or indoors, and without the application of heat. Uncured tobacco is very potent -- the Indians who used it would often pass out after as little as one cigarette, and "communicate with the gods." This type of tobacco should be smoked with caution. The danger here is death from overdose rather than addiction. When used as a ritual narcotic it is not smoked often enough to result in addiction.




"Standard tobacco" is hallucinogenic.

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5582545 - 05/03/06 03:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

"Standard tobacco" is hallucinogenic.





Which makes me right nontheless. More or less potent, it was still tobacco.

Quote:

What grounds to you have to base such statements as "oh, I'm sure it was this that..."?




What grounds does anyone have to say anything?

I post what I know. And what I know is not a belief, it is what I read. Do you need terms expressed in such phrases such as "In my opinion", or "...It is possible that"? Sorry - I dont speak that language. I side with one side or the other. I dont choose vague lexicon with words that mean nothing, which can be twisted to make me right and wrong at the same time. Don't like it? Prove me wrong.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Fospher]
    #5582623 - 05/03/06 03:58 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Which makes me right nontheless. More or less potent, it was still tobacco.




Right in that it was tobacco, but incorrect in that you were implying that it was not psychoactive.

Quote:


What grounds does anyone have to say anything?




It varies, dependant upon what type of statement is being questioned. Your statement in particular was an assertion of a quality of an aspect of reality that can be scientificially addressed. Something such as "Oh, I'm sure it was this" when there is evidence to the contrary has no real ground upon which to be placed.

I requested that you informed us as to what grounds your statement was based upon because you provided no substantiation for your assertion.

Quote:


I post what I know.




In this case, you posted what you didn't actually know. :tongue:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5582668 - 05/03/06 04:12 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Something such as "Oh, I'm sure it was this" when there is evidence to the contrary has no real ground upon which to be placed.




Provide evidence to the contrary and I will change my opinion with the fact. Isn't that what the internet's intent was from the beginning? To exchange information freely?

Quote:


In this case, you posted what you didn't actually know.




I posted that it wasn't marijuana but tobacco that was smoked out of the pipe, which is what I knew. I am to trust my sources in the same way that any posters can be inclined to trust me. Think my data's refutable? By all means, try to prove me wrong. And I'm not saying that in a cocky, challenging sense, I too, am wrong sometimes, but unless this turns into a 10 page flame war, I will stand up and defend my data with reason. After all, re-evaluating opinions on new facts is how we all learn!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Fospher]
    #5583485 - 05/03/06 06:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"First of all, yes, the Charles Manson family smoked pot and dropped acid - but that's only because it was so commonplace at the times"

I merely said that Manson's "familly" were severely deluded AND they used cannabis and LSD.

"Secondly, a psychedelic drug can definetly raise the awareness and teach one about himself"

There is a potential for this to happen IF the intent of the individual is to learn about the self. If the primary motivation is just to have a good time, then that will be the extent of it. The intent has to be there. It must be said that that IF the intent is present there are many other experiences that would serve to make one spiritually aware as well.

"There's one thing that I've learned over the years though. When I say that a psychedelic is a catalyst, many would interpet that word in the sense of a tool of some sort. As something that could be manipulated by your will in any shape desired"

24 years of experience with "power plants" have taught me that the the intent of the individual is what matters. The drug is only a catalyst if the intent is in the proper place. Taking drugs does not constitute a spiritual path in and of itself. To delude ones self into believing that this is all that is required is counter productive to true spiritual awakening.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Fospher]
    #5583659 - 05/03/06 07:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Provide evidence to the contrary and I will change my opinion with the fact.




I have already done so. :wink:

Quote:


Isn't that what the internet's intent was from the beginning? To exchange information freely?




Certainly, but that doesn't mean that such information has to be in the form of a brazen assertion of aspects of reality. I don't know anything about archaeology, and so I don't say "Oh, I'm sure these bones were actually this...". Eh? :grin:

Quote:


I posted that it wasn't marijuana but tobacco that was smoked out of the pipe, which is what I knew.




You also posted that you were sure that most tribes only smoked tobacco for the social effects of doing so, and not due to psychoactive effects, going so far as to question whether or not the effects described were psychoactive or merely "relaxing".

Quote:


By all means, try to prove me wrong. 




I have already provided exercepts from sources that demonstrate that tobacco is psychoactive, and that Native American tribes used tobacco as a hallucinogen. If smoking tobacco was merely for the social benefits of sitting around, partaking, then it would have been just as plausible that they would have passed around a rock and took turns rubbing it. :grin: It was utilized for its subsequent effects.

Is it really necessary to filibuster on the nature of the internet, trusting sources, how it is that we learn, etc., when someone states that an expressed view, as an observation of reality, has no basis, and then demonstrates contradictory information that underscores that it has no basis? :grin:

:headbang: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5583985 - 05/03/06 08:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Certainly, but that doesn't mean that such information has to be in the form of a brazen assertion of aspects of reality. I don't know anything about archaeology, and so I don't say "Oh, I'm sure these bones were actually this...". Eh?




Quote:


...I have already provided exercepts from sources that demonstrate that tobacco is psychoactive, and that Native American tribes used tobacco as a hallucinogen.




That's because you don't know anything about archeology, while on the other hand, I have read up quite a feasable amount on Shamanism. I didn't realize I had to pass a bar test on a religion in order to make a post in a public forum.

And even if the potency of it altered, my point wasn't to argue it's potency, nor have I ever mentioned it. Once again, it was stating the kind of the drug used, ie marijuana vs tobacco.

Quote:

and then demonstrates contradictory information that underscores that it has no basis?




I have contradicted myself? Where?


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Re: Spirituality, shamanism? [Re: Fospher]
    #5584556 - 05/03/06 02:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
That's because you don't know anything about archeology, while on the other hand, I have read up quite a feasable amount on Shamanism.




Then how were you able to glaringly overlook the role that tobacco played as a hallucinogen in South American, shamanistic groups? Tobacco originated in South America, after all, and it was used alongside ayahusca, etc., as an integral aspect of their practices.

Quote:


I didn't realize I had to pass a bar test on a religion in order to make a post in a public forum.




It was never implied that such would be necessary; however, it usually helps when one doesn't propose that one is sure of this or that when, in actuality, one doesn't have anything to provide as a basis for that assumption. :wink:

Quote:


Once again, it was stating the kind of the drug used, ie marijuana vs tobacco.




I understand that; however, you also questioned whether tobacco was actually psychoactive, and implied that the tobacco used wasn't psychoactive, just "standard". I acknowledged your point and went forth and made my own, which is what we are currently discussing. You asserted that "most" tribes only smoked tobacco as a social convention, but considerable evidence suggests tobacco's role as a hallucinogen and as a part of the shaman's practices.

Quote:


I have contradicted myself? Where?




I didn't state that you contradicted yourself; I stated that I provided information that contradicted your assumption.

Quote:


Is it really necessary..... when someone (me) states that an expressed view (your view), as an observation of reality, has no basis, and then demonstrates contradictory information that underscores that it has no basis?




Reading comprehension is fundamental. :thumbup:

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