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OfflineKalix
'Head

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Swami]
    #4414067 - 07/17/05 04:19 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Herbs are biological plant chemicals and have nothing to do with accessing any spirit world.




Come on man.. Cannabis.. Salvia.. Sinchuichi.. Tobacco.. There's more too..


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Kalix]
    #4414074 - 07/17/05 04:29 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Kathleen Harris is an ethnobotanist that was cured of a heart disease by a Shamanic Salvia Ritual..
Perhaps; perhaps not. Any budding scientist knows that anecdote tell us very little.

Read Breaking Open the Head by Pinchbeck.. .
Why assume I haven't read it? I have read over 2000 books and that among them. Do a shroomery search.

and when asked how they learned the benefits of certain plants the standard reply is "the plants told us"
So they first ate any old plant which then told them which other plants to eat. That doesn't make sense now does it?

So the two are definetely co-dependant..
Not at all. Would you care to wager that there are shamans who do not use herbs and herbalists who do not use any shamanic methods? Do some research before responding.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,007
Re: Spiritual types and personalizationisms of other cultures [Re: Kalix]
    #4414075 - 07/17/05 04:30 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

shamanistic lineage, and shamanistic emulation are not the same thing.

"the plants told us directly", is not a literal statement, it is what the shaman told the gringo investigator, who is truly an uninitiated alien. (less than an uninitiated tribe member - politics is going on in that picture - imagine telling the investigator that they never smoke salvia divinorum or ska maria pastora - an outright obfuscation to gringos!).

From this quote many foolish things have followed.

Western style superiority does not prevail over the inner spiritual domain of real shamans operating in tribal groups, they already have a rigorous world view that does not need gringos; these leaders would treat their own people as goofy students, and they treat outsiders with far more reserve and private humor.

I could say that all shamans in modern culture made it up themselves.
good for them!


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Kalix]
    #4414076 - 07/17/05 04:33 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Come on man.. Cannabis.. Salvia.. Sinchuichi.. Tobacco.. There's more too..

Taken completely out of context. Nice job! Go back and read the thread. Herbs do NOT require shamanic practices to have effect. This is 100% demonstrable and was all that was said.

One day I will teach a course in reading comprehension. S&P sorely needs it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineKalix
'Head

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 1,504
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Swami]
    #4414093 - 07/17/05 05:13 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Kathleen Harris is an ethnobotanist that was cured of a heart disease by a Shamanic Salvia Ritual..
Perhaps; perhaps not. Any budding scientist knows that anecdote tell us very little.

Read Breaking Open the Head by Pinchbeck.. .
Why assume I haven't read it? I have read over 2000 books and that among them. Do a shroomery search.

Well, then how come you didn't know about the medicinal use of Salvia?

and when asked how they learned the benefits of certain plants the standard reply is "the plants told us"
So they first ate any old plant which then told them which other plants to eat. That doesn't make sense now does it?

Not to you.

So the two are definetely co-dependant..
Not at all. Would you care to wager that there are shamans who do not use herbs and herbalists who do not use any shamanic methods? Do some research before responding.




The exception not the rule..


--------------------


My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Kalix]
    #4414108 - 07/17/05 05:50 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

So they first ate any old plant which then told them which other plants to eat. That doesn't make sense now does it?

Not to you.

Yes, I am mentally challenged. Perhaps you would care to explain it in greater depth then?

So the two are definetely co-dependant..

The exception not the rule..

Uh-huh. First look up the word co-dependent. Then show your source(s) that shows them to unilaterally interlinked.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual types and personalizationisms of other cultures [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4414210 - 07/17/05 08:27 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Good point Red. I would say that what I call my shamanic practice is made up. I have not tradition in my culture to pass this knowledge to me. I have had to make do with my one lifetimes worth of investigation.

This may be how the original human shaman started out, although we may never know.

The point for me is, does what I do make me happy and healthy or unhappy and unhealthy.  I don't care too much if I don't pass the technical definition of shamanic practice. My life is mine to make up and play with.  Like a baby, I want to allow myself some foolishness and mistakes as I learn to walk into my life. I have respect for anyone trying to find a path into the spirit within a culture that does not support many spiritual paths. A good example is the fact that psychedelics are illegal. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Swami]
    #4414211 - 07/17/05 08:27 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Herbs do NOT require shamanic practices to have effect. This is 100% demonstrable and was all that was said."

This is true. All that is required is the knowledge to use them while observing the indications and contraindications of the substance.

redgreenvines:
Good point. One notion that confuses many white people is the Native American notion that plants have a spirit and that they communicate with you. In the context of most primitive cultures this is an accurate statement. One must, however, realize that most native cultures see the spirit and the physical as different ends of the same spectrum...not separate. The spirit is just a continuation of the physical and the reverse. So when Maria Sabina told Albert Hofmann that the psilocybin pills he provided her were the "spirit" of the mushroom she was not expressing quaint, native ignorance. She saw the active principle AS the spirit of the mushroom. That did not negate the metaphysical properties of the substance to her...it is merely one of the active principles properties. To say a plant talks to them is just a simplification of their understanding of how the plant works. Noted survival expert, Tom Brown, has demonstrated that he can handle a plant blindfolded....by only touching it and smelling of it, and identify it and many of it's food and medicinal properties. Witness' to this process say it is easily repeatable, reliable, and can be taught to others. Often, if Mr. Brown is brought a plant he has had no previous contact with he will identify only the food and medicinal properties, but not know the name. A native herbalist will tell you the plant spoke to him....Mr. Brown will tell you that this is an inborn instinct that allows animals to know what foods they can eat. All animals possess it...even man, as he too is an animal. One has only to reawaken the instinct by increasing one's awareness. This is a process that is based in human instinct, but that instinct was a gift of spirit...so, therefore the process would be seen as inherantly spiritual. To see a hallucinogen as communicating with the user, is an analogy that may not be accurate, but it seems to fit.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4414215 - 07/17/05 08:34 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Thats very cool Hue.  That makes the connection between spirit and material very understandable, and fits my belief that everything is spirit. Thanks for putting this out. :thumbup: :mushroom2:

The skills of Tom Brown were once available to most in so called primitive societies. This is the tradition that we lack and so fumble often in our understanding of the natural world and how we might interact with it. At least that's my guess.

Edited by Icelander (07/17/05 08:39 AM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Spiritual types and personalisms [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4414226 - 07/17/05 08:55 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
So Swami when you go out of your way, as you have done in this thread, to invite a debate about how someone questions your ideas and conclustions. What do you think will happen ?




Then the proposed topic will be discussed, obviously. That is not the problem that said topic is proposing to be discussed. The problem, as it appears he feels, is that, when he makes a point or a statement in some thread, involving some topic that does not concern his own person, someone will reply with a statement that is directed to him and regards his personality, as opposed to an on-topic response that actually involves the topic itself and his addition to that topic.

Quote:


Then you complain whin and bitch about it....That's what your doing now right ?




"Complain, whine, and bitch" are all adjectives that more reflect your own personality and how you perceive reality, as opposed to what Swami has actually done. The entirety of his first post appears as a simple observation, and then a reminder that he feels this is not the point of this forum. Examining the nature of his actual words in this first post demonstrates this, an understanding of literature proves it. No whining or bitching has been demonstrated, and it is simply impossible to infer whether he is complaining or just making an observation. Either way, it is moot, as it is not pertinent to the proposed discussion. :grin:

Quote:


And when you say " That person is not playing fare"




This is an incomplete sentence.. is there more that completes this? Also, I had trouble locating the source wherein Swami said "That person is not playing fare (fair?)"... You made it seem as if they were indeed his words, as you referred to him as having said it, and then put it in direct quotes.. is it in another thread? :confused:

Quote:


Tehn you make such judgements like "Rather than debate ideas, way too many of the self-proclaimed "path-walkers" would rather discuss me (or others). This is all fear-based because they tremble when their beliefs are questioned and so must lash out rather than do any deep self-examination."




I personally would have put to use the word conclusion. Regardless of whether or not his conclusion is an accurate one, the best way to address his conclusion is probably to demonstrate how it is inaccurate. I see it as a general conclusion that isn't directly linked to any examples (thereby making it difficult to validate or invalidate), so I decide to note that Swami has come to this conclusion, see it as a possibillity, and note it for future reference, when I do find evidence to consider it agansit. :hypnotoad:

Quote:


And then you ask why do people always question me ?... Maybe it is you who fears the truth ?... I do not know I am not you




I don't believe he asked why people always question him. Maybe he fears the truth, maybe not. As you said, we are not him, and we do not have enough demonstrateable evidence to base any such thing on, eh? I find it a little strange to make such a statement if one did not feel as if they actually knew, but I dunno. :smirk:

Quote:


And you are not me
So please stop deciding what I am fearfull off and stop make conclustion aboput me and others based on your own conclustions.




I didn't catch where Swami specifically referenced you, unless perhaps you recognize that you are one of the people who discuss him instead of addressing actual points of on-topic discussion. :grin:

I do not understand what it means to not make conclusions based on one's conclusions; however, I think it is an impossible thing to ask one to not come to conclusions. :wink: Perhaps one could request that one does not come to baseless conclusions, but I believe that everyone that comes to a conclusion feels that it is based upon something, so that would be something that would be impossible for someone to discern.

Quote:


That it a fatal weakness I think you have. I conclude LOL Love




Demonstrate your evidence that supports your conclusion that this is a fatal weakness of his. Unless we have something to consider your conclusion with, it is impossible for us to decide whether or not it is an accurate conclusion, which effectively makes your expression mostly pointless. :tongue:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Icelander]
    #4414231 - 07/17/05 08:59 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion when you separate the spirt from the physical, as most mainstream religions do, spiritual practice loses all practical application. I am not really curious as to whether there is an afterlife, I am only interested in solving problems in the here and now. As Castaneda wrote, I feel that any moment could be my last battle on Earth so why do I want to waste it worrying about that which is unknown and has no sway over my person at this time? I want help with the battle itself....one thing at a time. This primitive spiritual construct has helped me define a model of a working universe that I have found it handy in solving many personal problems. It cuts through the bullshit and allows me to directly access my spiritual nature to solve problems on that level.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4414237 - 07/17/05 09:02 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

We only exist within one tense.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4414239 - 07/17/05 09:04 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

That is true, but that is an very interesting way of phrasing it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4414242 - 07/17/05 09:07 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Good stuff.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Re: Spiritual types and personalisms [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4414372 - 07/17/05 10:33 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"Complain, whine, and bitch" are all adjectives

This is not correct.  They are verbs.  :tongue:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Spiritual types and personalisms [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #4414375 - 07/17/05 10:35 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
This is not correct.  They are verbs.  :tongue:




This is not correct. They are all verbs, but one of them can also be a noun.

:lol:

Thanks for catching my typo! :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Spiritual types and personalisms [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4414411 - 07/17/05 10:46 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

They are all verbs, but one of them can also be a noun.


OK Bitch!  :smirk:

Thanks for catching my typo!


Anytime, sir.

The grammar police even work Sundays!  We are here to protect and serve.  :grin:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (07/17/05 10:47 AM)

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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: Spiritual types and personalisms [Re: DoctorJ]
    #4422779 - 07/19/05 09:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
one shouldn't confuse the scientific practice of modern medicine with the capitalist practice of modern medicine. they are, unfortunately, two different things.



Good point.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: Spiritual types and personalismsq [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4422911 - 07/19/05 10:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
In my opinion when you separate the spirt from the physical, as most mainstream religions do, spiritual practice loses all practical application. I am not really curious as to whether there is an afterlife, I am only interested in solving problems in the here and now. As Castaneda wrote, I feel that any moment could be my last battle on Earth so why do I want to waste it worrying about that which is unknown and has no sway over my person at this time? I want help with the battle itself....one thing at a time. This primitive spiritual construct has helped me define a model of a working universe that I have found it handy in solving many personal problems. It cuts through the bullshit and allows me to directly access my spiritual nature to solve problems on that level.




So the idea here is not to look past your own nose. To deal with things one block at a time, one step, one wrung of the ladder. To not worry about what you can not see. But yet at the same time you feel as though you have some type of spiritual side to your being ? I am confused about what your saying.

The idea is not to seperate Physical from spiritual. In fact they are intertwined and are dependent on one another. In all my study of " Religion " I have never heard it desciribe as being seperate. I think I have heard many people who refuse to believe there is an after life say that though

All of mankinds accoplishments were done with looking past the next step. TO make plans and develope ideas are dependent on looking to the unseen. All the great discoveries were discovered because someone took the time to care about what they don't understand. People are in a constant need to prove or disprove this or that. How can a person claim to be in contact with a spiritual side and yet claim there is not a desire if there is a afterlife ? I mean isn't that crazy ? What exactly is a spiritual side ? Does your spiritualness depend on death ? does it die ? If so then you have no spiritual needs.

You said it yourself " This primitive spiritual construct has helped me define a model of a working universe that I have found it handy in solving many personal problems. " Why would you hold on to a primitive aspect of humanity ? If it workd for you then cool. But what if you do have an afterlife ? Then what. Humanity owes it's entire success to discovery and planning for the unseen. And you just are going to throw it all out the window. Because your only desire is to the here and now. Today and what you can see ?. Iv'e said it a few times in a few threads. But if mankind had lived all through time like that. Then we would still be rubbing sticks toghter. I can understand the many negitive outlooks on " Religion " But to denie the possiablities of an after life because you can't see it. I think is foolish :heart:

Please help me to understand. It sounds to me like this Castaneda person was unable to look past his nose.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Spiritual types and personalisms [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4423092 - 07/19/05 10:52 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
This is not correct.  They are verbs.  :tongue:




This is not correct. They are all verbs, but one of them can also be a noun.

:lol:

Thanks for catching my typo! :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Incorrect.  Two of them can be nouns.
End communication.
C:\>_

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