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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Registered: 05/28/04
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spiritual truths
    #2822523 - 06/24/04 12:14 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

is there any objective truth? i know this has come up often in debating spirituality here, and im not going to get back into it.

But i am about to make some claims about spirituality, and i will present these claims as objective facts, attempting not to rely on any sort of faith, verbal trickery or anything. I say these truths can be tested by any one of you who wants to.

1. many forms of meditation can induce pleasurable, interesting and beneficial states of conciousness.

2. The OBE , or out of body experience, is a real experience that is different from any other form of dream or hallucination and can be achieved by anyone, regardless of faith or religion. (note: i dont know the extent to which this experience corresponds to the real world, but the state itself is real, unique and achievable)

3. Hallucinogenic Drugs are more beneficial to the user when done in a spiritual context, and proper grounding in a spirituality like shamanism can make the differance between a fun but pointless or bad trip and an amazing spiritual one that really leaves a positive lasting effect on your psyche. Not mandatory, but it helps.

4. Belief and adherence to religious/spiritual tenents like "do ontu others..." and "love thy neighbour" as well as belief in things like karma, are beneficial to society and the world as a whole.

5. Having a personal path on which to base ones life and guide ones pursuit of self improvement CAN lead to greater happiness, clarity, and contentment.

6. The value we put on an experience shapes the value of that experience. Example: if we follow society's oppinions, dreams are meaningless, or at least irrelevant to the 'real world'. we are early on taught that dreams are like little movies that play when you sleep, but once you wake up you get on with your 'real' life...

if you buy this, you will often stop remembering your dreams and certainly will not gain the benefits possible when you think of dreams as opportunities for self-analysis, spiritual exploration or simply concious enjoyment. In other words, if you belive dreams are meaningless, they will be for you, if you believe they are the gateway to worlds of inconcievable wonder, they will be for you.

7. Cultivation of 'spiritual' techniques like zen no-mind and shamanic 'stopping the world' have practical real world applications in nearly any activity or field. The underlying systems have been used in japan to develop the worlds best archers, painters, poets, swordsman, martial artists... no matter what you choose to do, zen can help you excel.

What connects all these points? im trying to show that spiritual faiths and disciplines are accesible, and beneficial, to Anyone, regardless of weather you label yourself a skeptic or a believer.

Im trying to show that there are techniques and experiences available to anyone who wants them, regardless of your belief system, requiring no faith. Everything i have claimed can easily be validated by self experimentation, no self-brainwashing needed.

Hope someone enjoys or benefits from this
PEACE

Disclaimer: i am fully aware that spirituality and belief can have just as many negative effects, and that many spiritual claims are frauds or mistakes. Im just saying, dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822861 - 06/24/04 02:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I just stopped in to say I enjoyed reading your post.  I don't have anything to add to or detract from it.  Just enjoyed it, and it has substance.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822989 - 06/24/04 04:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

#1 agreed. i would say "or/and" instead of just and. people will critique it funny haha.

#2 agreed.

#3 can be welded along into no. six, but very true.

#4 ive never met somebody who disagrees with that, but im sure i will after this thread takes off.

#5 true, if you are concerned about self improvement. a person can have a path that leads them into degredation, but perhaps that is their idea of improvement?

#6 is a poweful statement that i enjoy! beyond dreams though. "if you can concieve it..." somebody said. probably a million people have said that quote.

#7 zen is most wonderful also.

conclusion: spirituality can have nothing to do with religion or faith.

:awesome train of thought.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823220 - 06/24/04 06:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

so many numbers!

most of it all adds up to "relax".

some find magic peripherally
others bask in it.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Todcasil]
    #2823523 - 06/24/04 10:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"if you can concieve it..."

Yeah, whatever. Many people have wasted their entire lives chasing the chimera.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2823528 - 06/24/04 10:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Chimera? Is that the English word for Chupacabra?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Evolving]
    #2823541 - 06/24/04 10:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Chimeras are imaginary; chupacabras are real!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2823611 - 06/24/04 11:41 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Yeah, whatever. Many people have wasted their entire lives chasing the chimera"

yeah and others have used their lives to turn the chimera into something real. At one time no one believed human flight was possible. No one believed the first organ transplant would work. But someone concieved of it and made it real.
If only you'd been there to give them some advice they might not have botherd eh?



that said, sometimes people do waste their lives trying to make something realized that never works, but an even surer way to waste your life is to not try at all.

swami: i strongly advise you specifically to pick up the book "the crack in the cosmic egg " by joseph chilton pearce. it basically takes all my points here a dozen steps farther, and it has enough sources and labratory studies to back it up to satisfy even you (possibly)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823635 - 06/24/04 11:54 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

swami: i strongly advise you specifically to pick up the book "the crack in the cosmic egg " by joseph chilton pearce.

False Assumption #635. Never ceases to amaze me how such a psychic or tuned- in group can be so consistently wrong - far, far worse than random chance. How can this be?

After I pick up the book, what do I do with it? Swat a fly? I read this book when it first came out in 1973(?).

The problem is: no, not ANYTHING that you can conceive can you achieve. This is an overblown statement. Defend it if you choose, but it is blatantly false.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2823643 - 06/24/04 12:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hehe..
first of all, i didnt make any psychic assumptions, i simply reccomended a book i thought you might enjoy, and theres a new edition for 2000, with some good new stuff in it. The reason i recomended it is because it does a better job of explaining this idea than i am able to. Its not as simple as this. But, also, theres no point in me arguing this with you now. its not the point of this thread.

But, before i drop it, i too want my chance to cash in on this new ultimatum style of discussion.

yes, yes, EVERYTHING you can concieve you can achieve. This is a true statement, attack it if you want but it is impeccably true.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823658 - 06/24/04 12:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The HUGE difference between you (and most others here) and me, is that I back up my statements. I will increase my normal $20,000 bet to $50,000, special for you because I like you. I will wager that I can conceive of something that you cannot achieve.

This tends to side-step any semantic quibbling; though you will try anyway.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823666 - 06/24/04 12:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> EVERYTHING you can concieve you can achieve.

Hmm... I can concieve of Swami being King of China... how exactly am I to achieve such a conception?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Seuss]
    #2823671 - 06/24/04 12:13 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

First I will need plastic surgery on my eyes and then practice with chop sticks...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Seuss]
    #2823862 - 06/24/04 01:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Hmm... I can concieve of Swami being King of China... how exactly am I to achieve such a conception?




It definitely would not be easy... but there would be ways you could go about it. You could always overthrow the government. :grin:

However, I wouldn't say that everything you can conceive, you can achieve. A lot of the concepts flowing around in my mind aren't even in relation to something achievable or not... say the concept of the Atlantic Ocean. What is there to be achieved? Everything is a concept in the mind, a concept doesn't necessarily need to relate to an action.

And there would be, of course, concepts that are related to something achievable that just wouldn't be possible. The concept of eating a star, for example. How the hell would you eat a star? :lol: And to clarify, the concept of eating a star without adjusting the size of you or the star.. or something..... you'd have to eat it as is. :nut:

Anyways... All Hail the King of China! :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLizard_King
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2823959 - 06/24/04 02:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've eaten stars. Stars are yummy, but I haven't had one since I stopped eating Lucky Charms.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Lizard_King]
    #2824775 - 06/24/04 06:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You could always kill and cannibalize Star Jones.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2826015 - 06/25/04 12:35 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Certainly not everything that you can concieve of you can achieve... at least not with that attitude! But then, you can't concieve of everything that exists (has already been achieved). Maybe all Swami would need to do in order to be King of China would be go to sleep and have a dream wherein he projects himself into the mind and/or body of some king of China, past, future or purely hypothetical. If he manages to remember when he wakes up, and is convinced of the veracity of the experience, can he not be said to be the King of China? Not by anyone with gulliworts 'n' gumpus, that's for sure!

Maybe Swami already has dream-travelled to a prior life in which he was King of China and he believes it deeply at a subconcious level, as he recognizes he is not yet ready to be King, deep down. And perhaps when Swami's subconcious feels he is ready and allows him to realize that he is, or was, in fact, King of China he'll prove to be (or have been) the best King of China we've seen in a good long while.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Panoramix]
    #2827081 - 06/25/04 08:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Thats sort of what im refering to. Our mind contains the inherent ability to manifest ANY sensual experience internally, and therefore anything that can be concieved can be percieved. Therefore flight, or shapeshifting, or anything else can be achieved as a valid and real experience. What cant be dont nescessarily though is creating any drastic change in the laws that govern this physical/collective reality of daily life.

On the other hand, people have been known to break laws of physics, or at least achieve things far beyond the regular range of possibility, through deep belief or faith, examples are firewalking and extreme martial arts feats.

Firewalkers have, in a labratory enviroment, sucessfully walked coals hot enough to melt aluminum on contact.

Source: The crack in the cosmic egg, as mentioned above, so dont ask me for a link.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2827211 - 06/25/04 09:59 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Firewalkers have, in a labratory enviroment, sucessfully walked coals hot enough to melt aluminum on contact.

Firewalkers to my knowledge have never taken the Swami Firewalking Challenge (and probably never will).This is simple. Place a steel or iron plate on top of the coals, allow to reach ambient temperature and STAND on that instead of the much lower thermally conductive ash. If it is power of mind and NOT a trick of fast-walking, sweaty feet and semi-insulative ash, then there should be no problem and I will become a "believer".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2827949 - 06/25/04 02:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Don't be silly, of course ash will provide insulation and sweat will provide lubrication, letting the person move across the coals on a relatively cool pillow of 100ish degree celsius steam if all goes well. I don't know about you, Swami, but I still consider that to be a remarkable feat. I mean, if I were to hold your feet to the not-so-proverbial fire, do you think your feet would be able to produce enough sweat to keep them relatively unharmed? That kinda thing takes mental discipline. Or how about those buddhist monks that can control their internal body temperature while in deep meditation? They'll go up to a cliff overlooking Whatsits monastery when the sun starts setting dressed in nothing but a layer or two of cloth robes and a pair of sandals and spend the night sitting out there on this exposed area in a rather high part of the Himilayas, meditating. When the sun rises, they get up and head back down to the monastery. These same monks can, when meditating, raise their internal body temperature to the point where wet sheets that are placed on them begin to steam. Mind you, this is at high altitude, and water reaches a steaming point at a lower temperature then at sea level. But still, that's pretty impressive!


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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