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Reality Test
    #551338 -

Many of you confuse the faultiness of the measuring tool as if the tool changes reality. If I put a piece of frosted glass in front of my eyes, did it actually change the trees and buildings in front of me? Of course not.

Now I am not a violent person, so bear in mind that this is a hypothetical test only. All the babbling about subjective vs objective reality accomplishes nothing. Let everyone who wishes to participate in the experiment line up and let me give them a solid crack in the back of the head with a nice hefty stone and then let's have the "nature of reality" discussion again.

Of course no one will line up because *ahem* there IS such a thing as objective reality.

Made my point. End of discussion.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551354 -

Yes, if you crack me in the back of the head my head will hurt. Brilliant.


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Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #551415 -

And you know that ahead of time... how? You mean the stone isn't really whirling quantuum particles that respond to your thoughts?

Never said my hypothesis was brilliant, just basic.Sounds like you actually agree with me!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551437 -

Whether I'm stoned and quantum particles are flying out of my nose is irrelevant. I don't know if it's "objective reality" but it's gonna hurt like hell.



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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551460 -

You come down to my house and I'll let you crack me in the back of the head. Hey we can test the life after death hypothesis too. We'll make a day of it.


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Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #551479 -

YEAHHH!!!!  We should make a huge party out of the whole thing!  But wait, if we all got whacked on the back of the head, we wouldn't be able to use the computer anymore, and then we couldn't have the fun little pointless arguments anymore!!!!!  :frown:    Nah, I'm gonna have to pass my friend, this fills up too much of my free time, and I'm not sure I'm ready to give that up.  Especially on the behalf of a cracked noggin! :smile: 


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552471 -

Aaaah, the cerpent of Swamihood has lifted its venomous head again...

How is pain, or for that matter anticipation of pain any proof of any objective reality? Events in dreams can be anticipated, so what? You can anticipate that if you eat shrooms you will meet with some strange visions, is this proof that the visions are objective? Furthermore, objective vs subjective is real a question of whether or not something else exists outside of our own perceived world (a tree in the forest that fell when nobody sees it, for example). The fact that pain exists is fairly indisputable within the framework of subjective (i.e. percieved) universe, thus proves nothing of objectivity. Thank you....

Many of you confuse the faultiness of the measuring tool as if the tool changes reality

Excuse me many times, for I am stupid, but how can one claim that a tool changes reality, if one doesn't claim to believe in any reality in the first place?

Faultiness of tools is, in and of itself, a very interesting discussion topic. Please enlighten me as to the following questions:

1. How does one measure the accuracy of a tool, in absence of ways to observe the object by other tools (say during the time when the tool is the first to reach a certain level of accuracy).
2. If mulitple different tools perform the same measurement and produce the same result, that is supposed to be proof of accuracy, right? Well, if so, looking into multiple convex mirrors will prove that you are fat, won't it? Clearly nonsence which you might counter by saying something like "clearly, multiple convex mirrors as measuring devices have the same flaw", to which I ask "relative to what?".

-- Grib.

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Re: Reality Test [Re: gribochek]
    #552570 -

Aaaah, the cerpent of Swamihood has lifted its venomous head again...
Cool. Nobody has ever waxed poetic over me before.

How is pain, or for that matter anticipation of pain any proof of any objective reality?
It is objective because it is universal. Does not matter you religion, your though processes, your disposition. The pain and injury will exist no matter what mental stance you take. You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

You can anticipate that if you eat shrooms you will meet with some strange visions...
Again you agree with me. No matter what your mindset, if given enough mushrooms, one WILL indeed trip.

Excuse me many times, for I am stupid,
Now, now, false humility is not becoming on you.

...but how can one claim that a tool changes reality,
See? Again you agree with me though I had to trick you into it. The tool does not change reality. The laws of physics remain intact when tripping. There is no telekinesis or other violations possible just because one thinks so while in a mushroom trance.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552661 -

That's all well and good, but pain doesn't encompase all of reality. Sure we know it's going to hurt, but physical pain is the extent of this test, correct?


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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552679 -

How is pain, or for that matter anticipation of pain any proof of any objective reality?
It is objective because it is universal. Does not matter you religion, your though processes, your disposition. The pain and injury will exist no matter what mental stance you take. You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

Pain is a product of our CNS and brain, different pain thresholds exist, and one can[/] increase it (and we do, a baby doesn't tolerate as much pain as an adult). So pain isn't that universal, or at least not completely constant. It will be interesting when we get more advanced artificial limbs, will we make them be able to feel pain? If not, then it suddenly isn't that universal anymore.
Besides, you can transform the feeling of pain by concentrating on it. (within limits of course, which your experiment exceeds) I do this myself, and it can potentially reduce the uncomfortableness of the pain significantly.

You can anticipate that if you eat shrooms you will meet with some strange visions...
Again you agree with me. No matter what your mindset, if given enough mushrooms, one WILL indeed trip.

no matter your mindset, if given enough water, one WILL indeed piss.
Just because we are accustomed to being able to predict certain things, does that nececarily exclude the possibility that there are unpredictable phenomena outside our band of vibrational frequencies we can scan?
Mind you, i'm not talking about psychic stuff, or ascenscion to the nth dimension. But our eyes detect what we have defined as visible light. (450nm to 650nm or something around there I think?). Likewise our instruments can detect other frequency bands on the electromagnetic continuum. Like radiowaves, or x-rays. It is only likely that there are far, far higher vibrations than we can detect, and far lower too.
So much higher in fact, that the current state of science wouldn't be able to detect it as physical phenomena at all (yet, I have great faith in science). Surely you must agree with this? It's a quite logical extrapolation, I believe (athough I must confess I am aware of the dangers of extrapolating anything too far)

...but how can one claim that a tool changes reality,
See? Again you agree with me though I had to trick you into it. The tool does not change reality. The laws of physics remain intact when tripping. There is no telekinesis or other violations possible just because one thinks so while in a mushroom trance.

MY personal theory on this is that the same way you can measure light as particles or waves, it is indeed none of them, but whatever it is, it's true nature lies "deeper" than our current instruments are able to probe. Same can be said about tripping. You choose another chemical balance through which you brain measures reality.
Same underlying "deep reality", different measuring method. Both ways of measuring are not completely correct, but aproximations. A tool can change the area of reality that percieved, but the "real" deep reality remains the same (albeit still not directly percieved)

Enough with my rambling. It might not be a challenge for you to bust all my arguments to smithereens (real modesty, in fact), but do so anyway, I can only learn from it.


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Timeleech]
    #552688 -

It's interesting you mentioned the artificial limbs, I was just reading more about that the other day. There are huge advancements being made, the merging of flesh and machine is getting better and better... The merging of mind and machine is drawing near. That really will change reality.

I had a link from ca.msn.com, but it's gone now. (They change them every day.) I was going to post it but I decided not too. Damn. :wink:

This sounds like another occasion for Ray Kurzweil. 


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Re: Reality Test [Re: Ulysees]
    #552715 -

I saw that article. And I drew a picture about it a week or so ago, check it out here:
http://theophagy.org/gallery/album02/Magic_biotech

I believe that the massive human transformation that will happen in the future not nececarily lies in any kind of "dimensional ascension", but rhather in the migration of consciousness into silicon-based machines, rather than the current state of the art biological machines.

Machines will take over the world alright, but we will live inside those machines!


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552725 -

It is objective because it is universal.
If this is your definition of objective, that's fine with me. If this somehow proves objectivity as defined as "something independent from or existing outside of personal perception" then please tell me how so. Pain is the most subjective thing there is, in the same lexical group with feeling of hunger, love or lust. Please enlighten me as to the objective nature of pain and suffering (other then the fact that it reoccurres under controlled experimental conditions, which is true of countless many other things)


You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

Well, your "measurement instrument" with which you measure what I understand is really inaccurate, please don't take its measurements for reality :smile:
The only thing I know is what I have seen, namely, that every time I've hit my head against something at a certain velocity, I have experienced pain. I have no proof that this will reoccur, although I have a fair amount of fear of trying, nor do I have any proof that this happens to anyone other then myself, because those people yelling and crying "of pain" might really all be good actors, for all I know, although I will probably not try inflicting any pain on them, for fear of them being honest those other times.

No matter what your mindset, if given enough mushrooms, one WILL indeed trip.

And, again, where is objective reality? (BTW, I smoked a fair dose of Salvia in Altai mountain region once, just to find out that I've already been tripping for the past few days... Nothing was added to my experience by the psychedelic)

...but how can one claim that a tool changes reality,
See? Again you agree with me though I had to trick you into it. The tool does not change reality.

Now, now, this is simply a dirty trick. My original statement read "how can one claim that a tool changes reality, if one does not believe any reality exists in the first place". Just to reiterate for the swamies of this world, to agree (i.e. with you) that a tool changes something (i.e. reality), I must admit that there exists something (i.e. reality) to be changed (which I don't, hence I don't agree with you) You tricked me into nothing, you simply missed the point.

Cool. Nobody has ever waxed poetic over me before.

How good must it be to be a swami:
smart people agree with you
those who don't must therefore be stupid
educated people support you
those who don't, must therefore be taught
even Einstein agrees with you and thinks you are a fine fellow scientist
no matter the guy is dead, he still does.
How good must it be to be a swami:
you never know the agony of seeing the world as it is.

-- Grib (sorry, couldn't resist) 

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Re: Reality Test [Re: Timeleech]
    #552755 -

Yes! That's what I think too. I thought I was the only one around here.

That picture is fucking cool by the way. All of them are cool. Cool is no longer the word I will use to describe them. I'll let you know when I find a better one. :wink: 


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Re: Reality Test [Re: Swami]
    #552818 -

It is objective because it is universal. Does not matter you religion, your though processes, your disposition. The pain and injury will exist no matter what mental stance you take. You understand this, but go on for some obscure reason.

It seems the objective domain is indutitable to you by using Deuternomy-ish scenario. But there exceptions always that will never be explained using such priori. There are people that just defies the laws of physics. So let's get back to pain. I've been to A Shaolin show a while back. The monks were performing life-threatening feats most "normal" people could never do. One demonstration:

Two monks stood direct to each other with a double-headed spear. They both place the corresponding point to their neck [thorax]. Slowly, they would take steps, moving closer to each other while the spear progressivly was bending at a concave angle. This was unreal. The amount of elastic pressure in the flexed spear would pierce through and cave anybody's throat, which would kill them soon enough. Yet, nothing happen. Not even a drop of blood. The monks' neck were unscathed.

Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (02/15/02 04:49 PM)

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Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552834 -

The Shaolin monks spend a lot of their time meditating and channelling their Qi energies. They then test their qi by doing such abnormal feats such as you stated. I have seen monks sit naked in the middle of a snow field while concentrating on their inner sun and within ten seconds, melt all the snow around them within a twenty foot radius. I have also seen one monk stand fast while 7 others ram a large log into his stomach as hard as possible, and he doesn't so much as flinch.

The fact is that pain is a subjective experience. If I choose to not feel pain then I will not. Pain is an illusion. I have been hit on the head by a large metal pole which made blood flow quite freely and required 17 stitches, why then did I not feel any pain?

I would like to see science explain this without using any spiritual explanation. Of course any level headed scientist will say that such things are not possible, or that they cheated. The fact is, these things are quite mild compared to some of the things I have seen that could not be explained by science.

By all rights, a person who jumps out of an airplane without a parachute from 10,000 feet should die when they hit the ground. How is it then, that people have survived hitting the ground at 200 miles per hour, bouncing five feet off the ground, and suffering from only a broken rib?

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Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552840 -

http://www.shaolins.com/shaolin6.html

http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/ironshirt.htm

Edited by Shroomism (02/15/02 05:14 PM)

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Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552844 -

Yeah.. I figured there was two combined possibilites:

1. Using Qi as a shield right at the point of contact.
2. Psychologically immuned to such emotions, or thoughts of pain.

And what do you mean you saw "them"? I've heard of Tibetans practicing tummo in the snow, never seen one.

The fact of seeing it for myself + with a couple hundreds of other people is credence itself.




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Re: Reality Test [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #552849 -

I visited a Shaolin Temple last year in New York state. I hope to go to China this Summer to live in one for a few months.

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Re: Reality Test [Re: ]
    #552850 -

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! Amazing? That's understatement itself. I would love to be able to do that.. Have so much control over the body, mind, and heart..


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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