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Iraq slides toward civil war
    #5330500 -

Destruction of holiest Shia shrine brings Iraq to the brink of civil war

By Patrick Cockburn
Published: 23 February 2006

Iraq took a lethal step closer to disintegration and civil war yesterday after a devastating attack on one of the country's holiest sites. The destruction of the golden-domed Shia shrine in Samarra sparked a round of bloody sectarian retaliation in which up to 60 Sunni mosques were attacked and scores of people were killed or injured.

In a number of respects civil war in Iraq has already begun. Many of the thousand bodies a month arriving in the morgues in Baghdad are of people killed for sectarian reasons. It is no longer safe for members of the three main communities ? the Sunni and Shia Arabs and the Kurds ? to visit each other's parts of the country.

"Iraq is in a Weimar period like Germany in the 1920s which will either end with the country disintegrating or in an authoritarian government taking power," said Ghassan Atiyyah, an Iraqi political commentator.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article347140.ece

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Alex213]
    #5330783 -

I don't want to imagine what will be going on in the minds of the supporters of this war when it starts to dawn on them that they have failed. Checklist:

Sustained blow against Al-Quaeda and Osama Bin Laden: failed. Al-Quaeda still quite active, Bin Laden still alive and operating.

Sustained blow against terrorism in general: failed. Collateral damages, aggressive wars and pictures of torturing US soldiers created more potential terrorists than ever.

Getting safe oil reserves, decreasing price of oil, helping the Iraqi oil industry to sustain the country: failed, millions (billions?) of revenue lost because of sabotage, oil prices became actually much higher.

A quick war followed by the installation of a sustainable, democratic state and withdrawal of occupying forces: failed, US forces will still need to stay in iraq for years and years.

Trial of Saddam Hussein: failed, he is mocking the court again and again; will probably never lead to anything. Maybe he writes another book in jail, so it was at least good for something.

Decreasing the global threat by weapons of mass destruction: failed, North Corea accelerated its nuclear weapons program while the US were busy in Iraq. Dictators all around the world have been demonstrated that having such weapons could indeed protect them (the war on iraq probably would not have happend if Saddam had already posessed nuclear missiles). Probably provoced Iran to try to start its nuclear program.

Finding Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq: failed. Wrong intelligence.

Fighting back islamic fundamentalism: quite the contrary. It almost seems like the US have effectively created a new islamic fundamentalist state. Radicalisation will grow steadily.

Increasing the living conditions of the iraqi people: failed, much worse than under Saddam, still getting worse.

Bringing freedom and personal rights to the iraqi people: will probably worsen under a fundamentalist islamic government.

Bringing democracy to the iraqi people: Democracy still very fragile and mostly upheld by the occupants.

Improved strategic position against Iran: failed. The strategic position might have possibly worsened. Saddam was an opponent of Iran, the new leaders of the shiite majority might actually sympathise with Iran. What if Iran tries to 'liberate' regions in Iraq or Afghanistan? The struggling US forces would not be able to cope with an intruder from outside. The result might be a grim war between many countries of the region and the US and allies. Might be a possible scenario for the beginning of world war 3.

Other effects:
The cost of the war for the US in the long run will probably be in the order of magnitude of MANY billions of dollars. Thousands of americans died, ten thousands were injured. Ten thousands of iraqis died. Tax cuts for health care and education will have lasting negative influences on the US. Growing national debt will have lasting negative influences, too. International relationships of the US with the majority of countries all around the world suffered immensly. Public opinion of the US in the majority of countries is beyond good and evil.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Alex213]
    #5330877 -

The Democrats, MSM, terrorists, and some people on this forum have wanting a Civil War to break out Sooooooo Badly for almost 3 years now.

This incident will not cause a civil war.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5331389 -

"The Democrats, MSM, terrorists, and some people on this forum have wanting a Civil War to break out Sooooooo Badly for almost 3 years now."

It just occured to me that this thought on side of the US also has some resemblence to the post - WW1 germany: the myth of the stab in the back. See http://uk.encarta.msn.com/media_121619783/Myth_of_the_Stab_in_the_Back.html

Just a wild association, nevermind.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: heidegger]
    #5333939 -

With that number of deaths, I'd say a small civil war has already begun. How are the family members and the members of those religious groups going to feel after being attacked? The fighting will only breed more fighting.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5335284 -

Yup the MSM has correctly predicted 327 out of the last 0 civil wars in Iraq.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5338756 -

lonestar2004 said:
The Democrats, MSM, terrorists, and some people on this forum have wanting a Civil War to break out Sooooooo Badly for almost 3 years now.

This incident will not cause a civil war.


Ahh it's always those terrorists and democrats wanting civil war, the Shiites and the Sunnies don't want it though. They know one benefit of stirring up a talk of civil war, and that is the end of American Occupation. You don't have to believe me, I take this from Yahoo! News. As the leaders want peace between the relgions, they also want us assholes to go back to our own home.

On Saturday, al-Sadr's movement joined Sunni clerics in agreeing to prohibit killing members of the two sects and banning attacks on each other's mosques. The clerics issued a statement blaming "the occupiers," meaning the Americans and their coalition partners, for stirring up sectarian unrest.

"We demand that the occupiers leave or set a timetable for the withdrawal," the statement said.

As for saying this is not a civil war, there were 60 more deaths even with a daytime curfew that makes Iraq look like a ghost town since you said that. Sure it's on a smaller scale than what we'd like to consider an all out war, but man 60 people died in shootings on both sides in random attacks and even battles. What do you call that? I believe this can be considered civil war on a small scale.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (02/25/06 06:40 PM)

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5338765 -

al-Sadr is such a dumbfuck. The "occupiers" didn't plant those explosives and blow up that dome.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5338813 -

Right, but I think the Iraqis know a little better than you about the whole thing and they claim that the root of this is with the occupation and that the two sides were peaceful before our intervention. The fact of the matter is that we are not wanted there, we were never greeted with flowers and people wanting soldiers to kiss their babies. We've created more terrorists against us because of the 100,000+ dead iraqis. If occupiers of America ended up killing 100,000 plus of us I would join a retaliation group and try to fight the other side. We wouldn't call ourselves terrorists, although I'm sure the other side would.

As for taking the fight to the terrorists, any terrorists smart enough to pull off an attack were out of Iraq and were already stationed in other countries waaay before we ever attacked. And Bush's whole argument is taking to the fight to the terrorists. As if all the terrorists just gather in Iraq waiting for America for a big old war. As if we're really spreading peace by making there country a democracy. Look at Iraq right now, it's a democracy. You call that place peaceful? In the future, do you think the fact that Iraq is a democracy will end the violent nature of Iraq's people? Enough with Bush's fantasies. What's his real reason for all of this?


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (02/25/06 06:53 PM)

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5338826 -

beatnicknick said:
Right, but I think the Iraqis know a little better than you about the whole thing and they claim that the root of this is with the occupation and that the two sides were peaceful before our intervention.


The two sides were held in check by a brutal dictator. But, I can definately concur that things were more peaceful before Saddam's ouster.

I say that America should withdraw and let the Sunnis and the Shi'ites kill each other. No skin off my back.

Edited by RandalFlagg (02/25/06 06:55 PM)

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5338842 -

It's either that or we die while fighing with them. We have to options if this miniature war gets any bigger.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5338847 -

I think everyone just needs to stop pretending to care about the Iraqis. That would make things much simpler.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Redstorm]
    #5338850 -

Hhahaa if that happened we would have never went there.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5338854 -

Exactly.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Redstorm]
    #5338862 -

Redstorm said:
I think everyone just needs to stop pretending to care about the Iraqis. That would make things much simpler.


I care in the sense that we have supported sanctions against the country for years (which caused considerable problems for rank and file Iraqis) and we have pursued a war which has gotten messy (which has also caused considerable problems). I do feel guilty that the U.S.'s actions have impeded or ended the lives of a considerable amount of Iraqi's. Therefore I do feel some desire to help them and to "make things right". But, my isolationist bent overrules these feelings. I say we leave and let them do whatever they will (even if that includes blowing each other up).

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5338869 -

I don't give a shit about the people of Iraq, and I won't even pretend to. "Freeing" a group of people from a dictator on our (taxpayer's) fucking tab should not be the prerogative of the United States.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Redstorm]
    #5338875 -

Redstorm said:
I don't give a shit about the people of Iraq, and I won't even pretend to. "Freeing" a group of people from a dictator on our (taxpayer's) fucking tab should not be the prerogative of the United States.


I agree. I concur that I for the most part "don't give a shit". But, do you feel any guilt for what has happened or any desire to try to "make things right"?

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5338884 -

Nope, not at all. I wasn't consulted to give my opinion to George Bush and the planners of the Iraq War, so I bear no responsibility for what occurred.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Redstorm]
    #5338909 -

Redstorm said:
I don't give a shit about the people of Iraq, and I won't even pretend to. "Freeing" a group of people from a dictator on our (taxpayer's) fucking tab should not be the prerogative of the United States.


:clap: I call it bleeding heart syndrome. People who have a certain disagreement with something feel the need to bleed their hearts out on matter that mean little, this is hand in hand with everything.

People need to understand that their are no rules in war except winning the war. The way Iraq is being fought its not being won, In wars you expect civilian casualties, Civilians are a effective tool in war and has been a tool in war throughout centuries.

The way Iraq is being fought is simply infrastructure failure. If the terrorists create so much havoc in iraq by keeping their oil supply low, electricity, phones, anything of this nature then they can fight the Americans and can win by simply degrading the interim government. By attacking civilians and trying to start a civil war Al Qaeda in Iraq can win the war in Iraq by constantly keeping the Shias and Sunnis at odds with each other.

The fact is Al Qaeda in Iraq is the CIA of the insurgency their few in number and Iraq and they usually organize most of the bombings that kill Shias, Simply to ignite a civil war.

It appears that this tactic is effective and its working. I'd like to see how things turn out in a few years.

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Re: Iraq slides toward civil war [Re: Redstorm]
    #5338925 -

I wasn't consulted either! So this is the peace that democracy spreads by making the majority happy?

If we were to truley have peace by democracy the majority would have won in 2000. Iraq would have been on the bottom of our list of bad dictators still. We would not be on a quest to intervene in other country's problems. The American people would not have been fed the propaganda of an Iraq-9/11 connection. 9/11 would have been prevented as I doubt Al Gore was going to find any use through ignoring papers that were right on his desk and would have actually warned the public and alerted airports.

And Bush still preaches something we can all agree with him on, democracy, democracy, democracy. Put your money where your mouth is.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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