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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129066 -

itstarssaddam said:
Paradigm said:
Genetics may influence our decisions, but it's not as if every decision I will ever make is programmed into me at birth.


I would go as far as to say that every decision you will ever make was programmed into you during the Big Bang.


And such an assertion is no less dogmatic than that of the Intelligent Design crowd.

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Quote:
Some finches would have at some point decided to eat a different kind of food. Their beaks would have later evolved to adapt to that food source after the DECISION to change its eating habits. Thus, behavior can influence genetics just as genetics influence behavior. Yet the Dawkins crowd continues to insist the influence only goes in one direction.


Behavioral patterns can cause adaptations, of course I wouldn't deny that, but the finches' initial decision to eat a different kind of food would most likely be a result of their physiological and environmental conditions at the particular time when they stumbled upon this newfound food source. I don't think that this indicates anything beyond the biological level.


I'm not suggesting anything beyond the biological level. What I'm saying is that assuming randomness is no more scientific than assuming a creator.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129079 -

Paradigm said:
itstarssaddam said:
Paradigm said:
Genetics may influence our decisions, but it's not as if every decision I will ever make is programmed into me at birth.


I would go as far as to say that every decision you will ever make was programmed into you during the Big Bang.


And such an assertion is no less dogmatic than that of the Intelligent Design crowd.


If we can agree that every effect has a cause, and that these could be traced back to the Big Bang (and further if you want to talk quantum mechanics), it seems that my assertion is not so much dogmatic as it is logical.

Above you said, "genetics may influence some of our decisions."  So you're saying that some of our actions are the product of genetics, while there is some variable that allows for free will at other times?  :confused:

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129091 -

I refer you to Darwin's famous Galapagos finches. Some finches would have at some point decided to eat a different kind of food. Their beaks would have later evolved to adapt to that food source after the DECISION to change its eating habits. Thus, behavior can influence genetics just as genetics influence behavior. Yet the Dawkins crowd continues to insist the influence only goes in one direction.

The influence does go in only one direction.

What actually happened on Galapagos was that the finches' beaks were constantly evolving to better eat the available food. This included a staple diet and also occasionally alternatives when they were abundant. As other species evolved beside them and the competition for food heated up, selective pressures disproportionately favored the more omnivorous members of the species at the expense of the less.

Eventually, the species found a new niche in the new food and the constant genetic slewing converged on a beak design more optimal for the new food and less optimal for the old.

The birds did not 'decide' to switch one day, they were slowly pushed toward the change by their competitors. Pushed not decided. It's a one-way process.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129111 -

itstarssaddam said:
If we can agree that every effect has a cause, and that these could be traced back to the Big Bang (and further if you want to talk quantum mechanics), it seems that my assertion is not so much dogmatic as it is logical.


It would be logical to say that the Big Bang set off a chain of events that eventually led to me and the decisions I make, but that is not the same thing as having those decisions "programmed" into the Big Bang.  If you are familiar with quantum mechanics, then you surely you would see the error in the idea that a logical sequence of events could be programmed into some initial cause.  That violates a core principle of quantum mechanics:  Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.  That principle shows the indeterministic way in which events occur.  Now, obviously, as we get onto a larger scale, we see the level of indeterminism decrease, and the certainty increase, but we never get to absolute certainty.  Furthermore, the fact that many parts of the universe, such as sentient beings, opens the door for the idea of sefl-determinism.  This is not to say that self-determinism necessarily exists, but there is good reason not to reject such an idea, even though several dogmatic atheists who claim to work under the name of science do just that.

Quote:
Above you said, "genetics may influence some of our decisions."  So you're saying that some of our actions are the product of genetics, while there is some variable that allows for free will at other times?  :confused:


Poor phrasing on my part.  What I mean is that there is no evidence to suggest that my DNA pre-determined my decision to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich today instead of a hot dog.  It was a decision I made long after my DNA was produced.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Diploid]
    #5129114 -

Diploid said:
The birds did not 'decide' to switch one day, they were slowly pushed toward the change by their competitors. Pushed not decided. It's a one-way process.


How does choosing the best strategy make it any less of a choice?


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129133 -

Paradigm said:
If you are familiar with quantum mechanics, then you surely you would see the error in the idea that a logical sequence of events could be programmed into some initial cause. That violates a core principle of quantum mechanics: Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. That principle shows the indeterministic way in which events occur.


Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle in no way rules out determinism, it just renders it impossible for us to predict the manner in which these deterministic events will unfold.

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129139 -

Paradigm said:
there is no evidence to suggest that my DNA pre-determined my decision to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich today instead of a hot dog. It was a decision I made long after my DNA was produced.


You ARE your DNA.

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129143 -

itstarssaddam said:
You ARE your DNA.


More dogmatism. When you're ready to deal with established facts, let me know.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129159 -

Paradigm said:
itstarssaddam said:
You ARE your DNA.


More dogmatism. When you're ready to deal with established facts, let me know.


Wikipedia defines deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) as "a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions specifying the biological development of all cellular forms of life." Which other variable are you proposing?

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129175 -

itstarssaddam said:
Paradigm said:
itstarssaddam said:
You ARE your DNA.


More dogmatism. When you're ready to deal with established facts, let me know.


Wikipedia defines deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) as "a nucleic acid that contains the genetic instructions specifying the biological development of all cellular forms of life." Which other variable are you proposing?


The factors which are obviously not genetic. For example, there is no gene for being poor. That is the result of environmental conditions and individual decisions. The whole concept of rich and poor is the result of something called society, which is the result of conscious interactions between individuals. We may have a genetic predisposition towards social behavior, but there is nothing in our genes determining what social institutions will manifest from those behaviors.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129182 -

How does choosing the best strategy make it any less of a choice?

I use the word 'choice' for lack of a better one.

Species evolve to fill voids. When there's a niche that allows them to reproduce more successfully, they flow into it. They do not decide to go in some genetic direction and wait for a niche to develop; that would never work.

This is not a choice any more than when water filling a ditch is a choice. Evolution, like water, takes the path of least resistance.



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Diploid]
    #5129187 -

Diploid said:
How does choosing the best strategy make it any less of a choice?

I use the word 'choice' for lack of a better one.

Species evolve to fill voids. When there's a niche that allows them to reproduce more successfully, they flow into it.

This is not a choice any more than when water filling a ditch is a choice.


That is pure conjecture. There is no indication in the fossil record that species are devoid of choice.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129210 -

Paradigm said:
The factors which are obviously not genetic. For example, there is no gene for being poor. That is the result of environmental conditions and individual decisions.



I see nothing to indicate that these individual decisions that you speak of are not genetically predetermined. The environmental conditions which you experience are the results of geographical distribution, or more simply, the location that your parents chose to copulate on the particular day that you happened to be conceived, and the sum total of the individual decisions you happened to make after the fact that led you to the environment which you currently inhabit.

Quote:
The whole concept of rich and poor is the result of something called society, which is the result of conscious interactions between individuals.


Varying levels of economic success are a glaring testament to natural selection.

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129224 -

That is pure conjecture. There is no indication in the fossil record that species are devoid of choice.

Where are you getting this?

In every case where there are fossils available, an incursion by another species or multiple species, or a climate change causing the depletion of food or other natural resource always precedes a punctuated equilibrium event.

This has been documented extensively by Dawkins, Gould, and others.

I know of no case where the fossil record shows a species arbitrarily moving to a new geographical location, then seeing if they can find a niche there. Same for arbitrary changes in diet.

And evidence aside, it doesn't make any sense that a species other than humans could 'decide' to start eating a new food. They eat whatever they CAN eat to stay alive and selection does the rest.

All speciation events so far found in the fossil record show that speciation is a reactionary process and never proactive.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (01/01/06 08:55 PM)

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129237 -

itstarssaddam said:
I see nothing to indicate that these individual decisions that you speak of are not genetically predetermined.


And I see nothing to indicate that they are. Neither position is more rational or scientific than the other. Rather, the scientific approach would be to make neither assumption.

Quote:
The environmental conditions which you experience are the results of geographical distribution, or more simply, the location that your parents chose to copulate on the particular day that you happened to be conceived, and the sum total of the individual decisions you happened to make after the fact that led you to the environment which you currently inhabit.


The error lies in separating environment from the conscious beings in it. Their interactions are just as important to shaping the environment as any physical factors.

Quote:
Quote:
The whole concept of rich and poor is the result of something called society, which is the result of conscious interactions between individuals.


Varying levels of economic success are a glaring testament to natural selection.


"Natural selection" is a vague and open term which can mean lots of things. If you read Darwin's works, I don't think you'll find such a reductionist interpretation of it as you'd find in Dawkins' work.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129583 -

Paradigm said:
itstarssaddam said:
I see nothing to indicate that these individual decisions that you speak of are not genetically predetermined.


And I see nothing to indicate that they are. Neither position is more rational or scientific than the other. Rather, the scientific approach would be to make neither assumption.


From what we can currently observe, we can safely conclude that every effect has a cause. That does it for me right there.

Quote:
The environmental conditions which you experience are the results of geographical distribution, or more simply, the location that your parents chose to copulate on the particular day that you happened to be conceived, and the sum total of the individual decisions you happened to make after the fact that led you to the environment which you currently inhabit.


The error lies in separating environment from the conscious beings in it. Their interactions are just as important to shaping the environment as any physical factors.


I wasn't separating the environment from the conscious beings in it, that would be foolish. The interactions between the beings in their environment can be reduced to pure instinctual clockwork.

Quote:
Quote:
The whole concept of rich and poor is the result of something called society, which is the result of conscious interactions between individuals.


Varying levels of economic success are a glaring testament to natural selection.


"Natural selection" is a vague and open term which can mean lots of things. If you read Darwin's works, I don't think you'll find such a reductionist interpretation of it as you'd find in Dawkins' work.


I have read both authors, and by natural selection I mean that those best fit to survive within their environment will triumph over those who aren't so fortunate. This fits in quite well with the "rich" and "poor" dichotomy.

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129622 -

itstarssaddam said:
From what we can currently observe, we can safely conclude that every effect has a cause. That does it for me right there.


"Cause and effect" does not negate free will, for we cannot say that the same cause will always have the same effect. The fact that a decision is influenced by a cause or can be a cause of other events does not negate the fact that it is, in fact, a decision.

Quote:
I wasn't separating the environment from the conscious beings in it, that would be foolish. The interactions between the beings in their environment can be reduced to pure instinctual clockwork.


Only if you desire to make it so. There is no scientific basis for such reductionism.

Quote:
I have read both authors, and by natural selection I mean that those best fit to survive within their environment will triumph over those who aren't so fortunate. This fits in quite well with the "rich" and "poor" dichotomy.


Not necessarily. The rich are usually quite ill-equipped to handle themelves in a poor neighborhood, whereas many poor people could survive easily in a rich neighborhood. The rich-poor dichotomy is simply a symptom of a dysfunctional society.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129653 -

Paradigm said:
Quote:
I have read both authors, and by natural selection I mean that those best fit to survive within their environment will triumph over those who aren't so fortunate. This fits in quite well with the "rich" and "poor" dichotomy.


Not necessarily. The rich are usually quite ill-equipped to handle themelves in a poor neighborhood, whereas many poor people could survive easily in a rich neighborhood. The rich-poor dichotomy is simply a symptom of a dysfunctional society.


Dude, obviously money alone isn't going to be sufficient for every aspect of survival, but I think we can agree that a family with money has much less to worry about when it comes to issues such as obtaining food, security, etc. Sure, being a member of the upper class isn't going to be of any assistance if you're dueling with a disgruntled crack dealer from the slums, or any such life threatening situation, but wealth is only one aspect of natural selection and it seems to be quite helpful in a capitalist society.

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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5129663 -

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about with environment encompassing the species in it. Money is only a survival tool because we have created a society based around it. It is meaningless without consensual behavior to back it up. There is nothing in our genetics about making money.


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Re: Pinellas, Florida: Evolution's Not Enough [Re: Silversoul]
    #5129676 -

tell that to the jews....

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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