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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument)
    #4875422 -

Hey guys,

I have never seen anyone satisfactorily find a way around this argument. See what you can do.

Claim: There is no such thing as free will.

Argument:

When we make a decision, we either make our decision totally randomly or else we make it based on something.

If we make the decision totally randomly, then this decision might as well be an external event thrust upon us rather than something we choose.

If we make a decision based on something, then we have to ask ourselves, what is this decision based on? When we are faced with a decision, we have to choose an option (doing nothing counts as an option, by the way). Something must cause us to choose one option over others; otherwise our decision would be totally random.

The answer is that we have some preference (or a combination of preferences) that leads us to make any decision. Or, to use alternate phrasing in case you don't fully agree with the word preference, we have certain dispositions that lead us to making a given decision.

Note: These preferences/dispositions do not have to be logical.

So anyway, where do our preferences and dispositions come from?
Well, we either choose to adopt a certain preference/disposition or else this preference/disposition is forced upon us somehow. If we choose to adopt a certain preference/disposition, then this choice is like any other choice. Something moves us to take the option of adopting this preference/disposition. What moves us? A set of more basic preferences/dispositions.

Eventually, this means that we can trace whatever preferences/dispositions we have "chosen" back to a set of preferences/dispositions which were forced upon us. How could preferences/dispositions be forced upon us? Well, either: 1) When we were children with very impressionable minds, our environment (parents, siblings, physical enviroment, etc.) instilled certain preferences/dispositions into our minds. Or, 2) we were born with certain preferences/dispositions. (For example, some people are born extroverted and others are born introverted - though even if you disagree with this example, it doesn't affect the argument as a whole.) Either way, we had no free will in adopting these very basic preferences/dispositions.

So, it seems that the only way we can be free is in having the ability to enact the decisions of the will. For example, we can be free if our will wants to stand up and we are able to stand up. But we seem to have no freedom in deciding that we want to stand up.

Edited by laotzu (10/31/05 02:11 PM)

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: laotzu]
    #4875588 -

A minute ago I had the choice of whether or not to respond to your post. I decided to do so. Now that I'm already responding to it my choice is set (assuming I don't just delete what I've written and leave).

The question is whether or not I was somehow forced or destined to decide to respond, or if I truly decided that by my own free will; it's a rather silly question at that. If I did not have free will then the choice was already made so to speak, I was destined to simply follow the path that had been pre-chosen for me by the universe. If I did have free will, I must have considered my options (however briefly) and decided on my own that I wanted to respond.

Because the results are exactly the same, I'd call it irrelevant and meaningless as a concept.

Perhaps the universe is a fixed four-dimensional object; it does not change at all, we merely perceive different views of it as our consciousnesses travel through the time dimension, in which case our actions would be perfectly fixed for all eternity. Or it is not like this, and the universe is ever-changing as a result of our free wills acting upon it. Regardless, I do not know what the future holds, and if I decide (or have it decided for me by fate) to just sit on my ass assuming that I can't change anything anyway then I waste my life away.

It's a concept without meaning, yet to reject it and live life as if it does not exist would be horrible on one's mind and spirit. As such, I choose  :wink: to act as if there is free will.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: GulGen]
    #4875626 -

lol


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: laotzu]
    #4875699 -

laotzu said:
I have never seen anyone satisfactorily find a way around this argument.


and you never will!


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: GulGen]
    #4875861 -

While the existence of free will might not have any impact on the physical universe, it has a profound impact on many aspects of philosophy. Take morality for instance. Morality is based on the assumption that we are responsible for our own actions. How can you hold a murderer accountable for his actions when they were determined by his environment? This and issues like it are hardly things I would consider irrelevant on a philosophy forum.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: laotzu]
    #4876447 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4866582/an/0/page/0

Volition is self-evident.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: laotzu]
    #4876519 -

it always amazes me that people spend so much time arguing on weather we have free will. im not going to get into the semantics of it, but i will state this with no attempt to back it up: you have the freedom to choose your course of action at any given time. If you choose to waive that freedom, or delude yourself into thinking you somehow dont have it, thats your loss.

In the real world: you can choose what you do...

:shrug:


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4876992 -

If I understand your post properly,essentially what you are saying is that free will must exist in order for there to be "validation". However, you do not provide a reason as to why "validation" must exist. Nor have you refuted any of the claims made by laotzu. Thus rather than prove that free will must exist, you have actually formed an argument against "validation".

(if i completely missed the point of your post, please enlighten me)

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: Zephid]
    #4877158 -

However, you do not provide a reason as to why "validation" must exist.

"Why" validation must exist? Because it is a corollary of volition, which is a corollary of consciousness.

Nor have you refuted any of the claims made by laotzu.

Nor am I interested in doing so [beyond the respect that I already have], and nor has anyone refuted the premises in my thread.

Thus rather than prove that free will must exist, you have actually formed an argument against "validation".

No, I formed an argument against "determinism".



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4877215 -

Do you think you could clearly and concisely lay out those premises, because I don't think i really understand.

Edited by Zephid (10/31/05 09:24 PM)

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: Zephid]
    #4877445 -

You want me to give you a more clear and concise premise than what has already been thoroughly elaborated by Dr. Peikoff himself?
Perhaps Phred can help you here - no guarantee he will participate, of course.

However, if you have any relevant questions, I'll do my best to rectify your nescience in this matter.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4884225 -

Some advanced physics states that any event is possible its just extremly unlikly. And somthing to do with quantum mechanics and that everything dosnt work in a set way aka we cant predict the future. So since the future is not fixed due to the random way atoms act, we cant follow a destined path. THUS the desicion was not made for us.

BTW i dont know details about this physics obviously, but i do remeber watching a program on it and atoms definatly act in a random way, so the future is not set. That bit is what im sure of.

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Re: lack of free will (i want you to disprove this argument) [Re: Mushy_face]
    #4885155 -

"Claim: There is no such thing as free will.

Argument:

When we make a decision..."

you concept stealer....do i need to explain any further?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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