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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4763383 -

My, my, there are more people fighting the findings than doing the experimenting

It's just that for as long as I can remember people have been insisting taking orange juice KILLS a trip, not increases it. It's still standard advice in Holland mushroom shops - drink orange juice to kill a trip.

Because of my 100 trips and 12 years of experience?


I don't know wiccan. I've tripped hundreds of times and if someone said "If you can't tell the difference between 0.25g and 1g five times in a row we'll take your house away"...I'm not sure it's a bet I'd take. Sometimes I take very high doses and hardly trip at all, on others I've taken a small dose and tripped balls. Your setting and mood have a massive effect on how hard you percieve a trip.

Let's actually test this, and from our own experience arrive at a better understanding. Let's not conclude that the observations were in error because we can't think up an explanation how it would work. That's how the world remained flat for hundreds of years.


I'm all for testing. But it has to be testing blind. Reading a report that lemon juice makes you trip 5 times harder and then on your next trip drinking lemon juice and thinking it was 5 times harder too isn't evidence of anything but placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Alex213]
    #4763460 -

I'd pay more attention to the people who are reporting breaking through on 1.5 grams rather than Wiccan's low dose experiments. I'll try to test it myself this weekend if I get the chance. The last few times I tripped I ate 3.5g, and for some reason I didn't feel much beyond a lvl 2 or 3.


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Battles of wits are impossible with the unarmed.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: WillieTomg]
    #4763489 -

It's all so subjective tho isn't it. A level 2 or 3 trip - it's purely subjective. The difference between 2 grams and 4 grams is purely subjective. Would anyone here bet $10,000 they could tell the difference 10 times out of 10 between 2 and 4 grams in a blind test? Because I'd take a peice of that action any day.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Alex213]
    #4763608 -

Alex213 said:
It's all so subjective tho isn't it. A level 2 or 3 trip - it's purely subjective. The difference between 2 grams and 4 grams is purely subjective. Would anyone here bet $10,000 they could tell the difference 10 times out of 10 between 2 and 4 grams in a blind test? Because I'd take a peice of that action any day.


are you serious?

there's plenty of people around here with hundreds of trips under their belts. 2g to 4g is a big difference. 10/10 wouldn't really be difficult

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Alex213]
    #4763623 -

I'm confident I could tell the difference. The subjective feeling is based expontentially on how much one ingests. 4 grams is lightyears beyond 2 grams.


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"A Bad Day for Pants"

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: cornoir]
    #4763632 -

Note to cornoir - citric acid plays an important part in human metabolism, not acetic acid (otherwise we'd smell of vinegar).
The citric acid is derived as part of the metabolism of glucose (the Krebs cycle).

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: IgnatiusJReilly]
    #4764035 -

The subjective feeling is based expontentially on how much one ingests

Nah, I've tripped harder on 2 grams than I have on 5. Your mood and setting play a big part.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Manninee]
    #4764038 -

I will be joining in this experiment tonight or tomorrow night. I expect no discernible increase in the intensity of the trip. It just sounds preposterous to me, so therefore if I have a noticeably stronger trip it will not be placebo.


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Beyond the gray sky

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Manninee]
    #4764791 -

Acetic acid is used in the human body, just not enough to smell.
"Biochemistry
Acetic acid, when complexed with coenzyme A, is central to the metabolism and biosynthetic processes of almost all forms of life. It results naturally from the action of certain bacteria in foods or liquids containing sugars or ethanol.

As an example of its importance in biology, acetic acid is produced in the human body after the consumption of alcoholic beverages. The ethanol is first converted into acetaldehyde, which is then converted into acetic acid by the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase and converted further to acetyl-CoA by acetate-CoA ligase." - Wiki source

Citric acid from Wiki;
"The citric acid cycle (also known as the tricarboxylic acid cycle, the TCA cycle, or the Krebs cycle) is a series of chemical reactions of central importance in all living cells that utilize oxygen as part of cellular respiration. In these aerobic organisms, the citric acid cycle is a metabolic pathway that forms part of the break down of carbohydrates, fats and proteins into carbon dioxide and water in order to generate energy. It is the second of three metabolic pathways that are involved in fuel molecule catabolism and ATP production, the other two being glycolysis and oxidative phosphorylation.

The citric acid cycle also provides precursors for many compounds such as certain amino acids, and some of its reactions are therefore important even in cells performing fermentation."

So citric acid is a part of a cycle in humans as well as acetic acid.

I mention vinegar (for those crazy enough to try this) as it tend to have a pH lower than any fruit drinks mentioned 2-3 range, with more like 2.2 - 2.5 for balsamic vinegar.

So vinegar with a lower pH will keep the Psilocin from breaking down quickly as I absorb them in liquid suspension form. Whether it being an acetic acid versus a citric acid, it might help in some small way or not compared with citric acid bearing drinks.

I will try and do a blind test on some guinea pigs I have waiting to see if it does anything to them, but it will take a month or so for me mushy to grow up. I remember someone mentioned that they had no tastebuds anymore, perhaps that person could volunteer to do a simple test with vinegar to have an objective view.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: cornoir]
    #4765070 -

OK I Have decided to do a 1oz shot with 1 gram of good shrooms ground finely if i can get my friend to trip sit for me. I have been trying to convince myself an have pretty much done so. that it will not potentate the trip my friend has agreed to try with a .25 gram with lemon juice i haven't told him it makes it stronger i just told him i only have .25 gram to spare. my plan will hopefully come to fruition sat night/afternoon.


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OI OI OI

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4765319 -

Well, even a placebo that magnifies the effects 3x-5x would be of some benefit.  Especially if it works for a large percentage of people.  I still think it works though.  For those that truly doubt, try taking your normal 'fun' dose(level 3?) using this method and then post your experience :smile:


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If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4765523 -


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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: ]
    #4765789 -

hmmmmmmmm.... should i try 5gs without the cranberry juice, or about 2, with it? im looking for full ego loss, lvl5. ive been working up to this point for a long time, and now i cant decide.


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never be afraid to let your mind explore, just know what you are getting into b4 you jump in the deep end, and do your research on this site and erowid.com

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4765801 -

if you cant decide than id say you might not be ready.


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"Truth is more in the process than in the result."
- J. Krishnamurti




"We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived." Wei Wu Wei

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #4765833 -

well, i know, that i can handle 5 grams, but i dont know if id be able to handle the 2grams with the cranberry. perhaps i should try the cranberry juice another time?


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never be afraid to let your mind explore, just know what you are getting into b4 you jump in the deep end, and do your research on this site and erowid.com

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: the_psychonaut]
    #4765844 -

Do a couple grams with lemon juice. Why even try the cranberry juice when the lemon juice is supposed to be stronger?

I'd try it with an eighth.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4765911 -

i swig down powdered shrooms with cranberry juice all the time and it adds no difference as far as i can tell.

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4766296 -

Heh 5 grams is a lot of fun if your mentally and spiritiually ready i topok 6 one time for my 3rd trip last year at my moms had a total blast best experience on shrooms.
My biggest dose was 9.5-10ish and it was absolutely intense great till my friend made me go laydown and i freaked out bigtime.
they trip kicked my ass in the end. just make sure your good and ready and have a good friend or 2 guide you through it.


--------------------


OI OI OI

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4766311 -

do 5 grams with the lemon juice. if your serious about getting to level 5 why not just jump in as far as u can and get a REAL level 5.


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:goose:

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Re: slapped together theory #1 [Re: Shnezbit]
    #4766350 -

Okay I am including a lot of info with sources and links as best as I could to where I found this data.

basically it point to the thought that acetic acid would be the BEST at creating a fast acting more concentrated Psilocin kick to the mind. It will not increase the potency technically, more like CONVERT more Psilocybin to Psilocin and suspend it in a more stable medium for a user's consumption.

The pH of lemon juice(2) is lower than most vinegars(3), but still both lower than Psilocybin (5.2) [Psilocin pH = ???, anyone?].

No none of this matters if no one can swallow the stuff right? The acetic acid is present in vinegar, so I hope to find a palatable and inexpensive vinegar to try upon my test group, since it will be easier to get them to drink Cranberry or even lemon juice before vinegar.

Make sure to notice the Psilocin content from the acetic solution (table 2) vs. the methanol solution for P. cubensis = Double!!!
****************************************************************
Extraction and analysis of indole derivatives from fungal biomass
Journal of Basic Microbiology
Vol 34, 1994; 17-22
by Jochen Gartz
"The abstract says it, if you are planning to extract the alkaloids from either dries and pulverisized fruiting bodies or from mycelium it is best to use pure methanol. Superior to aqueous solutions of alcohols (which is wet alcohol, the one you are likely to have!) is dilute acetic acid which means simple vinegar (better: vinegar essence diluted with same amount of water) which is quite nice because there is no problem obtaining it. The problem with wet alcohol is that the enzymes which dephosphorylise Psilocybin to the instable Psilocin are also extracted from the biomass. This also occures with acetic acid but to a smaller amount and does not occure at all with pure methanol (ethanol?)."

Table 1 #Amount of indole alkaloids in fruiting bodies of different species by using pure methanol as solvent (%, dry weight).

Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.98 - 0.34
P. bohemica 0.85 0.02 0.04
P. bohemica(cultivated) 0.93 0.04 0.02
P. cubensis 0.63 0.11 0.02
G. purpuratus 0.34 0.29 0.05
I. aeruginacens 0.40 - 0.21
P. cyanescens 0.32 0.51 0.02

Table 2 #Concentraction of alkaloids by using acetic acid for extraction of the dried mushrooms (%, dry weight).


Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.97 0.15 0.11
P. bohemica 0.60 0.21 -
P. bohemica (cultivated) 0.65 0.28 -
P. cubensis 0.45 0.25 -
G. purpuratus 0.24 0.35 0.01
I. aeruginacens 0.32 0.05 0.15
P. cyanescens 0.20 0.61 -

Table 3 #Results of the mushroom extraction of six species using aqueous mixtures of methanol and ethanol (%, dry weight).


Species Psilocybin Psilocin Baeocystin
P. semilanceata 0.80 0.15 0.11
P. bohemica 0.60 0.21 -
P. bohemica (cultivated) 0.65 0.28 -
P. cubensis 0.45 0.25 -
G. purpuratus 0.24 0.35 0.01
I. aeruginacens 0.32 0.05 0.15
P. cyanescens 0.20 0.61 -

By using the new solvent mixtures containing ethanol and methanol for extraction it was found that more psilocin could be detected in extracts of every species but always smaller amounts of psilocybin than with pure methanol (Table 3).

Additionally, a high activity of enzymes of the phosphatase type could be detected in these aqueous solutions from all species. In contrast to these results only the extracts of P. cubensis and P. cyanescens showed a significant enzymatic activity b y using acetic acid as solvent. In these cases psilocybin was completely dephosphorylated to psilocin by heating the acid extracts and no baeocystin could be detected in P. cyanescens."
--------------------------------------
Shroomery Post I found concerning thoughts on vinegar powdered shroom mixes from 9/03
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1911077
---------------------------------------
pH table listing some of our test drinks and other common foods/drinks
pH balance of Acids & Alkalines all around
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4.3 tomatoes (but healthy in moderation);
3.5 orange juice;
3 soda (all types & brands) . . . . . . . TOO ACIDIC
3 Alcohol (most types & brands) *more details later
3 vinegar;
2 lemon juice;
1 battery acid;
ACIDS are Low Ph numbers (2....)
--------------------------------------------------------------
THE MUSHROOM ENTHEOGEN
The Measure of the Mushroom
by C. B. Gold
Taken from PM&E Volume Five

..<snip>"I use an acetic acid-water extraction solution to help extract the psilocin and psilocybin more completely and also, to lower the pH so that the active tryptamines will be more stable.
Without the acetic acid the solution will quickly react with
atmospheric oxygen in the presence of endogenous enzymes to
form a strong blue product and in the process destroy some of
the psilocybin/psilocin. Also, the color blue itself will inter-
fere with the test results, since the reaction yields a blue or pur-
ple color for tryptamines. Specifically, psilocin yields a
brown-deep blue and psilocybin a yellow-green and purple
color. In contrast, LSD will react with DMAB to form a blue-
purple color.(l7)

Apparently, others have also found that a dilute acetic acid
solution is an excellent solvent for both psilocin and psilocy-
bin. Not only does the solution completely extract both trypta-
mines but the solution extracts other interfering substances to
a lesser degree. Casale also notes that if one heats the extrac-
tion solution of dilute acetic acid to 70 degrees centigrade for
ten minutes, then the psilocybin is completely converted by
dephosphorylation to psilocin.(5)

I have found on my own that heating the acetic acid solution
eliminated whatever bluing reaction was occurring in the
enzyme denaturing environment of the low pH extraction solu-
tion. That psilocybin is converted to psilocin is a plus, too."

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