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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4750031 -

Ive also had the same effects using water and choppin my mushies up very finely.It seems to help if i let them soak for an extended time like atleast 20-25mins. Im yet to try the lemon/lime juice or cranberry but ill have to try as soon as the season begins


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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: BlueFos]
    #4750078 -

If all goes well I might return tomorrow with two experience reports of very low doses of shrooms + liquids.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Asante]
    #4751421 -

my friend let his soak for about 10 minutes, and I let mine soak for about 2, and subjectively, we experienced our peaks at just about the same time.  i <3 this thread :smile:


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: slammin007]
    #4751488 -

slammin007 said:
a catalyst in psilocybin - psilocin conversion.


I am thinking the same as well.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4751527 -

Its kind of funny that no one has mentioned this before.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4752162 -

scatmanrav said:
You can make tea and have the exact same thing happen as with cranberry juice, or orange juice. I've tried orange juice 3 times, cranberry juice twice, and tea probably close to 50 times, straight most but probably 20 with lemon juice added. Ive tried lemon juice and water and water once each as well. All effects were very similar, and very strong..I tried 1 gram of good mushrooms in all of the catagories, some catagories I've tried multiple doses (like tea).

I believe the absorbic acid plays a part (just like adding the apples to stop oxidation) but its small..the biggest increase of the trip is due to you being able to absorb the mush quickly through your mouth (and stomach) because the actives are all now in liquid form.. Just what I think..


he's right, liquids are absorbed lot faster than solids. very small amounts ground and steeped in any liquid produce good effects

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This hyphus (thread) [Re: Nashbar]
    #4752968 -

Hey guys - the thread is supposed to be about if you can potentiate shroom tea or shroom juice with fruit juices (cranberry/grapefruit etc).
Boiling shrooms or heating above 70 degrees C will convert the psilocybin to psilocin, whatever you put with it.
We need to prove that shroom tea AND fresh shrooms are potentiated by the fruits. Gold Zingers and Grapefruit-Cubie smoothies all round, please!

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Manninee]
    #4753035 -

Distilled water pH 7.0
Drinking water pH 6.5 ? 8

Human blood pH 7.35 ? 7.45
Human saliva pH 6.3 ? 6.6
Stomach juice pH 1 ? 3

Apple juice pH 2.9 ? 3.3
Grapes pH 3.5 ? 4.5
Grapefruit juice pH 3 ? 3.3
Lemon juice pH 2.3
Lime pH 1.8 ? 2
Orange juice pH 3 ? 4
Tomato & tomato juice pH 4.2
Vinegar pH 2.4 ? 3.4

---------------------------------------------------------

What I find interesting is that the fruit juices involved tend to be in the pH range of stomach juice and that an often-drank juice which is in reasonably close pH proximity (Orange juice) is a source of a neverending debate about whether it potentiates mushrooms or not.

Hear me out:

1...Psilocin is preserved by acidity, destroyed by alkalinity
2...The stomach is acid, less acid after food or drink
3...The intestines are alkaline
4...Acidic foods are retained in the stomach for a longer period than non-acidic foods
5...Biologically unrelated fruit juices seem to potentiate psilocin

All this sounds like the acid hypothesis might indeed be valid and the bioflavonoid hypothesis suffers the decreased likeliness of biologically unrelated juices having the same flavonoids. The MAOI hypothesis and the p450 hypothesis likely are invalid because these juices would definately be known to medicine to act in that way, like grapefruit is. (especially if you consider lemon juice is active at 1oz whereas grapefruit juice p450 effects seem to start at 5oz)

Today I'll conduct one or two experiments on myself today and I've asked a friend to squeeze in a designed experiment of his own, which he'll probably do. If Underhillmaster's Juice TEK works it will revolutionize shrooming as we know it, because several experimenters above agree that one portion could be shared among 2-4 people and give all of them a full-portion strength.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4753041 -

EXPERIMENT: Substitution of fruit juice with 30ml of a 5% Ascorbic acid solution (pH 2)

Liquid: 30ml (approx 1 fluid ounce) of a fluid consisting of 1.5gr Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and distilled water to yield an organic acid solution of pH 2 which is of mid-range stomach juice acidity and comparable to the lemon/lime juice described in the primary post.

Mushrooms: 0.25gr of Psilocybe cubensis powder (minimal dosage) of which I know the strength and effects in that dose. Contains about 2mg psilocybin, probably grown on grain.

Preparation: After preparation of the solution the powder will be stirred into it to prevent lumping, the liquid will be kept for 15 minutes in the dark and drank neat on an empty stomach without involvement of any recreational drugs in the previous week.


THE TEST:

3:30h --- Drank the portion. Not so vile as anticipated, it literally is at lemon-strength.

+3min --- LOL if this alert will develop typically we might have something here :grin:

+30min --- Umm.. Err.. Ok, here's the deal: the effect now is about as developed as it would be perhaps an hour into it. The acid-only method *definately* gives at least an increase of velocity over the 3-5oz of mushroom tea I usually take. So it's maybe twice as fast as strained mushroom tea and I'm beginning to think I might just get higher too. It feels *different* to a normal Minimal Dosage but this probably is due to it climbing more steeply. There already is the fuzzy head, the wobbly mind and the visual alterations characteristic of minimal dosage. To jump to conclusions: It seems to me the Acid Hypothesis is correct and that I might just get similar potentiation with my 5% Vitamin C. Dude! I mean dude! There definately is something going on beyond placebo here!

+45min --- Good God :shocked: I'm definately getting potentiation here! It is now beyond what it would be as a mere tea, but because I'm  NOT there yet I won't guess. I'm talking myself out of placebo effects but its NOT happening :evil: I sincerely hope I get in trouble, because that only occurs at 0.75gr and up.
Underhillmaster: You DEFINATELY found something!!
I'm producing more saliva than usually, likely a physiological reaction to reduce the acidity in my stomach.

+1hr --- Uhuh! I think I'll settle for a halving of climbing time leading to a doubling in height which makes it probable that pH 2 in the stomach leads to enhanced absorption compared to the usual methods of use. The Acidity Hypothesis is no longer hypo :wink: but I'd like independent verification. I think the rapid climb led to a different kind of effect, taking in the earlier experimenters to estimate greater multiplications.

I think a very acidic gulp urges the stomach to force its contents into the bloodstream, thereby pulling the psilocybin (or perhaps ANY alkaloid :eek:) along with it. If this is the case you might double the strength of any alkaloid drug (thus halve its effective dose) if you take it on an empty stomach with a bit of lets say lemon juice. Or as for absorption: 
lemon-empty > empty stomach > some food > full meal

It makes sense, but if an acidic stomach indeed drives absorption into overdrive for general alkaloids it's a bloody revolution!

+1:30h --- I just aborted stomach acidity with some food and drink. I perhaps will go in a second time today, this time with 1oz of lemon juice to see if this leads to notable potentiation.
Time to make a dose-response balance. Indeed, it came on about twice as fast and hit me twice as hard. The Acid Hypothesis holds true and I hope others will confirm or deny this lil experiment. It seems to be a matter of absorption efficiency and definately is beyond placebo.
If 2 gr hits you as 4 you might settle on it feeling like 100 grams  :evil: but if 0.25gr hits you as 0.5 there's enough objectivity left to make that call. What i'm hoping is that the juices will hit even better than Vitamin C solution! But it seems clear that carboxylic acidity alone (ascorbic instead of citric acid) enhances the efficiency of absorption above that of an empty stomach or mushrooms in a neutral pH solution.

1:45h ---  :eek: We have trouble! Unexpectedly the strength rose further still and i'm definately at a 0.75-1gr strength (3-4x) without any shred of doubt. There's actually work to be done here mentally, rather than observing a response. :evil:

3:00h --- LORD GOD :eek: this is really unbelievable! This is.. DAMN!
I'm experiencing a strength comparable to maybe 4-5 times the amount I took!  My... word:eek:
So to recapitulate I'm IMMERSED into a trip which has every single feature of a 1gr trip and I arrived here on 0.25gr (i'm twice as sensitive as the average user so it feels like 2gr on 0.5gr, basically) and I can hereby without any doubt confirm:

---The Acid Hypothesis is valid
---The approximate potentiation is at the very least 3x, likely 4x and possibly 5x the amount taken
---I'm tripping balls on a Minimal Dosage :eek:

4:00h --- Still going STRONG but clearly diminishing. I don't see this suddenly sinking into nothingness so I think I'll be in for the full duration (5-6 hours) a mushroom trip tends to have. LOL I thought the cat was in the basket at 1:30 but I got hammered shortly thereafter. I wonder if it's the food and drink (2oz cooked spiced meatloaf on a bun & 400ml Sprite/water 1/1) that activated it in the course of 15-20 minutes, the short stare at a rotating spiral :wink: but if you expect double and you get quadruple that can be called a kicking :wink: My dose is not your dose, but in darkness i had vivid imagery merging with thought and behind the PC fat waves rolled over the keyboard, the screen was warping and coming closer and further, sentences wiggled like snakes.. A kicking :smirk: Looking back I'd dare call this a fivefold increase in potency as compared to eaten, capsules and tea. I don't know what 1oz of lemonjuice would do but 1 oz of 5% ascorbic acid, judging from the reports, might be as good or even an optimized version.

LOL many of you will read this and go "1.5gr vitamin C and a shotglass of water.. Riiiight;)" well, I was a tad skeptic too but i'm a believer now. If you follow the exact Ascorbic method an 1/8oz tripper will get FRIED by one gram. I hope Lemonjuice is just as good, but I have every reason to believe it is.
Underhillmaster: if you get a huge grinning hippy at your door handing you a big pie it's either me or Erowid :grin:

+6:00h --- Although still a bit off I'm declaring myself back to biseline because it won't get much better today ^_^
I'm settling for a fivefold increase in potency for the Ascorbic method. I've got a sense of "enough is enough" that signifies a good-strength trip so I won't go in a second time tonight (I was planning on lemon) I'd have a tolerance anyway.

I'm completely blown away by the effectiveness of this pH 2 ascorbic mushroom concoction.

I'd love it if somebody would verifyu this *exact* experiment, but I know my responses and know what I just went through :heart:


.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (10/04/05 01:39 PM)

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4753158 -

I will be doing an experience with 2 g's and 1 oz offresh squeased lemon juice this weekend. will let you know the results.


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OI OI OI

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: MrMolotov]
    #4753793 -

For *%$^&$# sake don't take 2gr!!

Umm if what happened to me on ascorbic (see above - its updated) happen to you that 2gr might fold open to feel just like 8gr or higher.

Proceed with caution: you can actually bump your head against the ceiling of what you can handle!


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Post deleted by Anno [Re: Asante]
    #4753932 -


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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: ]
    #4754029 -

Judging from the size of them (about 3-4 inch) I would say they were off a grain substrate. No telltale specks of vermiculite though, and it being Dutch commercial mushrooms I'd say prolly WBS.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754559 -

The friend I talked about just informed me he drank his concoction at 21:30h



EXPERIMENT -- 0.5gr Psilocybe cubensis in 100ml lemon/orange juice

The liquid: 50ml homemade orange juice combined with 50ml storebought lemon juice (1:1) approximate pH 3

The mushrooms: same as described in my above experiment, half a gram grain-grown P.Cub.

The concoction: The powdered mushrooms were added to the mixed juices and left standing for two minutes.

The subject: Has drank alcohol last night, has not touched food since a tiny meal 3 1/2 hours ago.



THE TEST:

21:30h -- drank the concoction.
+3min -- distinct alert, went off meditating, will report later.
+30min -- distinct closed eye visuals
01:00h -- talks about a "hard wave" and difficulty typing, drinks soup
01:20h -- likens the strength of effect to the 2gr mushrooms of same batch consumed two weeks earlier a fourfold increase in potency again some 20min after "eating"
01:30h -- announces he'll take an hour or so of meditation in darkness
02:00h -- he was watching visuals and estimated it 1.5-2gr, or 3-4x


LIVE TEST -- WILL REPORT LATER ON


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (10/04/05 03:42 PM)

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754586 -

essh, WBS mushrooms? those are the only shrooms ive ever taken that make me feel like im going to die or be killed, though they have been the most potent shrooms ive ever gotten. definitely wouldnt take those with any potentiator.

I wouldnt tell people to take no more than 1gr, hell i took 3.5g with cranberry and although it got pretty intense, it wasnt totally out of control. I do agree about the 4X-5X potentiation. The 3.5 i took felt like if i had taken 15g's or so.

I find it hard to believe that vitamin C can bring the PH of distilled water down to 2. I cant even get the PH down to 3 using phos acid, but thats just due to the logarithmic PH cap of it. Still, the only acid i know of that can get water down to a PH of 2 is muriatic. Perhaps you should retest the PH of your asorbic water.

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: yousuck]
    #4754645 -

Yup, a 5% ascorbic acid solution in distilled water has pH 2, check your merck index on it to save you some calculations.
As seen by the figures quoted above even lemon & lime juice is around that pH. If only mineral acids can get you there, your pH meter is broken :wink:

Quote:
I wouldnt tell people to take no more than 1gr, hell i took 3.5g with cranberry and although it got pretty intense, it wasnt totally out of control. I do agree about the 4X-5X potentiation. The 3.5 i took felt like if i had taken 15g's or so.



:eek: I dunno about your tolerance or your mushrooms but 15gr P Cub will blow the average user to shite! The average shroomerite uses about two-thirds of 1/8oz for a run-of-the-mill trip. We are talking about dried mushrooms, are we?

Quote:
they have been the most potent shrooms ive ever gotten. definitely wouldnt take those with any potentiator.


You can if you dose very conservatively. I did (0.25gr) and still got hit HARD, as you can see by my descriptions of effects. I'm very sensitive to mushrooms.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

Edited by Asante (10/04/05 02:10 PM)

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754816 -

I should have fucking saved some shrooms!!!!

...or A shroom for that matter!

THIS IS SIMPLY AMAZING

I consider The Shroomery blessed to have a thread like this created.


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:mallow:

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4754867 -

Good work Wiccan_Seeker. I plan on redoing your experiment Sunday night.

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Re: This hyphus (thread) [Re: Asante]
    #4755235 -

OK - So ASCORBIC ACID is a potentiator. I guess we need to try citric and tartaric acids too (other fruit/berry acids) and do a control with 5% acetic acid (vinegar, y'all!). There's gonna be a bunch of people looking like Wile-E-Coyote on Alum!

The big question - Does any acid act as a potentiator? Or is it just the ascorbic acid (vitamin C - known, by the way, to interfere with the function of parts of the p450 liver enzyme ladder)

Check out this link from a :sun: crank(y) chemistry board:

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?showtopic=12967

Edited by Manninee (10/04/05 05:06 PM)

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Theories for how this potentiation works [Re: Manninee]
    #4755437 -

There are several different ways that ascorbic acid/vit c and the chemicals in fruit juices might enhance the passage and/or activation of psilocybin:

(i) The Vitamin C transporter molecules in gut cells: People know that ascorbic acid is transported 'actively' in the gut (ie - by cellular machinery... specialised proteins) but as I understand, nobody has yet identified these molecules in gut, although they have been found elsewhere in the body. Many transporter molecules absorb more than one molecule simultaneously, and some chemicals enhance the absorbtion of others. Maybe Psilocybin and Vitamin C are co-transported, with the ascorbic acid facilitating the uptake of psilocybin?

(ii) The ascorbic acid functionally interferes with the detoxifying enzymes - Monoamine Oxidases and the family known as cytochrome P450. Citrus flavonoids enhance the absorbtion of vitamin C as well as blocking some aspects of the P450 enzymes (many health food chains sell Vit C/Flavonoid combination pills). These enzymes are in gut cells, the liver and elsewhere.

(iii) The other mechanism for prolongation could be the anti-oxidative properties of vitamin c interfering with the dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin somehow - possibly making it a more gradual process.

Either way, little is known about the mechanisms of vitamin C action.
It certainly seems to work if Wiccan Seeker's experimental result is true.

However, the flavonoid argument also cannot be overlooked as it based on pre-existing scientific evidence of drug potentiation. Many people use chocolate to bring a trip on faster - It works for me, and there's no acid in chocolate (just flavonoids!).

Perhaps ascorbic acid and flavonoids both get the same effect in different ways?

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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