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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4411070 -

And hopefully it will collapse before it grows so huge that it's collapse causes the extinction of mankind.


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Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4411373 -

Krishna said:
First of all - the vast majority of the wars of our history have been a direct cause of the state (or a church, which is the state in a slightly different manifestation). In the words of Mikhail Bakunin, "Every State, whether it is of a federative or a non-federative character, must seek, under the penalty of utter ruin, to become the most powerful of States. It has to devour others in order not to be devoured in turn, to conquer in order not to be conquered, to enslave in order not to be enslaved - for two similar and at the same time alien powers, cannot co-exist without destroying each other." (from the Immorality of the State). so of course wars have been fought to preserve/change/increase these boundries - the very same boundries are the reason for the wars themselves.


When you say vast majority of wars you do mean since the French Revolution, correct? Napeoleons conquests of Europe sparked the idea of nations having an idenity unique to themselves, and hence allegiance to borders, government, and a military. These things existed before this of course, but not in the name of the "state". People blended into those who conquered them before this and accepted their rule as a way of maintaining peace before another change in power occured. This power struggle has happened throughout history, and whatever new idealogy that came into practice, whether it be through Alexanders conquests in order to convert the world into civilized peoples through greek culture to the Popes call of christians to conquer the holy lands. War has been present through all this, and hasn't once been suspended by any change in idealogy that occured throughout history.

That is a cool quote by Bakunin. Although you should take it at face value because he is giving a very keen observation. You fail at logically following with this,

so of course wars have been fought to preserve/change/increase these boundries - the very same boundries are the reason for the wars themselves.

These boundaries are not the reason for wars as I've stated above. Human nature is the reason for wars themselves, and no idealogy; political or economic will make a difference in solving something that is at its core, human. By trying to pin the wholly complicated conditions in which war has been present in our history to one idealogy is foolish and naive.


Krishna said:
as to the question of eastern europeans - as you may (or may not) know, i studied at an international school for 2 years - and out of this group, the overwhelming majority of the anarchists came from eastern european countries. they had seen first-hand what the state, whether the USSR, or the current 'gung-ho' capitalist states they have today, is capable of - and want nothing to do with it.


So they essentially choose nothing? Leaving power up in the air for all to seize and capitalize on without any interference whatsoever? A leaders dream!

Krishna said:
as to saying my ideas are 'cute' (i take it you mean idealistic, but instead want to demean them), most certainly they are. don't you think abolishionist ideas were seen as 'cute' during the hey-days of slavery? the state, in my mind, is an institution much akin to slavery (except to a much greater degree - whereby it enslaves all of mankind), and is just as likely to eventually collapse, given the right conditions.


I take all ideas worthy of consideration as long as they don't violate the very make-up of reality. Once you cross that line uncertainty is your only guarantee and that uncertainty played out on the scale of entire nations is something that can have disasterous effects for the entire world. It is not honorable to test ideas on the back of humanity.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4411420 -

Ok, I can see some of the merit in ParEcon, mainly in the idea of the workers controlling businesses, but I don't think it's necessary to abolish private property to do this. All one would need to do is improve the bargaining position of the workers, which can be done by ending the land monopoly and the banking monopoly.

I don't think it's necessarily practical to have people learning every aspect of their industry. Some jobs just require too much specialization. I can see ParEcon coexisting with a free market, but never replacing it. I think there's just too many situations where it couldn't apply.

As for the taxi example: Sure, if the taxi driver finds it more to his benefit to work for a ParEcon taxi company, then he'll choose that over a wage job, but that doesn't require abolishing private property, now does it? If there are alternatives to wage labor which are enticing enough, then it will tend to have the effect of raising wages for those who continue to work in such jobs.

I think that many people who wish to overthrow the market system don't quite appreciate just how complex the market really is. There are so many factors at work in something as simple as getting enough milk to the store that it boggles the mind. And yet it's remarkably simple in a market economy, because everyone is simply looking out for their own best interest. If you think about it, nature is a market economy. The whole food chain creates a balance we call the ecology.

I can appreciate the idea of empowering workers and consumers, but I think this is better achieved by ending the four state-maintained monopolies which the individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker pointed out: the land monopoly, the money monopoly(ie banking), tariffs, and patents. Once these things are ended, the free market will be on a much more even playing field, and the inequalities which people decry in capitalism will be essentially nullified.


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4411596 -

to looner -

These boundaries are not the reason for wars as I've stated above. Human nature is the reason for wars themselves, and no idealogy; political or economic will make a difference in solving something that is at its core, human. By trying to pin the wholly complicated conditions in which war has been present in our history to one idealogy is foolish and naive.

there's where we disagree. human nature up to this point has played out like that, yes - but i don't believe that this represents the full/final 'potential' of humanity. i see man as a bridge between animal-nature and spiritual nature - and as we begin to cross that bridge, things like war and greed will fade away. however, for that to occur, certain material conditions - such as the state - will have to be done away with as well.

and So they essentially choose nothing? Leaving power up in the air for all to seize and capitalize on without any interference whatsoever? A leaders dream!

anarchism is not 'choosing nothing' - it is self-government, community government, personal autonomy - i suggest doing some reading of, for example, bakunin or proudhom before you make statements like that. sure, all those cute little anarchists who throw rocks at mcdonalds and wear ripped t-shirts with big A's on them might say 'we choose nothing' or some such nonsense, but any serious person who considers themselves an anarchist would laugh at such a notion.

and one last quick point - yes it has been 'power struggle' throughout the ages (in our modern times, manifested in the form of nation-states) - however, as i said with my previous comments on our disagreement about the nature of humanity - i believe that the basic concepts of power will fall away as man crosses that bridge.

and to Paradigm,
I can appreciate the idea of empowering workers and consumers, but I think this is better achieved by ending the four state-maintained monopolies which the individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker pointed out: the land monopoly, the money monopoly(ie banking), tariffs, and patents. Once these things are ended, the free market will be on a much more even playing field, and the inequalities which people decry in capitalism will be essentially nullified.

i completely agree. however, i also believe that such systems are (sadly) inherently built into capitalism. i believe that for a social-economic system to have any merit, it must hold up to certain basic standards of supporting equity, solidarity, and sustainability. capitalism shrugs off any such standards, claiming that if they are useful or necessary, the market will dictate it. ok, but when it comes to a market with vast disparity in empowerment/wealth/say-in-things - then those who set the agenda will often overlook/avoid such basic principles, because to embrace them would jeopardize their own position in society. and certainly, the market is mindboglingly (hehe is that a word?) complex - however, i also believe that human potential is much more than we currently see today, and that the majority of things we call 'market force' are actually 'second nature' in some sense. to use your own example of nature as a market economy - animals haven't studied economics, and yet they (for the most part) know not to kill off too much of their prey, lest they starve the next season.

and now, irony of ironies - i've got to go get drunk. i'll be back later tonight, or tomorrow, and hope to continue this with the both of yous!


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4411603 -

Vote with a brick!


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4411629 -

Krishna said:
I can appreciate the idea of empowering workers and consumers, but I think this is better achieved by ending the four state-maintained monopolies which the individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker pointed out: the land monopoly, the money monopoly(ie banking), tariffs, and patents. Once these things are ended, the free market will be on a much more even playing field, and the inequalities which people decry in capitalism will be essentially nullified.

i completely agree. however, i also believe that such systems are (sadly) inherently built into capitalism. i believe that for a social-economic system to have any merit, it must hold up to certain basic standards of supporting equity, solidarity, and sustainability. capitalism shrugs off any such standards, claiming that if they are useful or necessary, the market will dictate it. ok, but when it comes to a market with vast disparity in empowerment/wealth/say-in-things - then those who set the agenda will often overlook/avoid such basic principles, because to embrace them would jeopardize their own position in society. and certainly, the market is mindboglingly (hehe is that a word?) complex - however, i also believe that human potential is much more than we currently see today, and that the majority of things we call 'market force' are actually 'second nature' in some sense. to use your own example of nature as a market economy - animals haven't studied economics, and yet they (for the most part) know not to kill off too much of their prey, lest they starve the next season.


If you're defining "capitalism" as state capitalism, the way it currently exists, then yes, there is too big of a disparity in power. But in a truly free market, without the afore-mentioned state-sponsored monopolies, then people will be relatively equal. Not completely equal, mind you--there will be some who are more talented, more creative, more hard-working, etc., and they will profit more because of that. But the inequalities will be much more meritocratic in nature.

Now, regarding sustainability, I think with the coming oil crisis, we'll see the market shifting more and more in that direction. It could arguably already be at that point without all the state intervention which has supported our oil economy. What we often see today in corporate America is the state fighting the natural tendencies of the market in order to support certain favored industries.


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4414364 -

Krishna said:
there's where we disagree. human nature up to this point has played out like that, yes - but i don't believe that this represents the full/final 'potential' of humanity. i see man as a bridge between animal-nature and spiritual nature - and as we begin to cross that bridge, things like war and greed will fade away. however, for that to occur, certain material conditions - such as the state - will have to be done away with as well.


I am not talking about 'potential' or what you see man as. I am talking about 'reality'. Your belief in war and greed fading away is nothing more than wishful thinking. You have no basis for it being enacted on any scale whatsoever throughout human history. So I repeat, it is easy to pin a simple term, like the state, as one of the huge foundations of war, but when looking at history, war has been there when nations existed and when they didn't.

Krishna said:
and one last quick point - yes it has been 'power struggle' throughout the ages (in our modern times, manifested in the form of nation-states) - however, as i said with my previous comments on our disagreement about the nature of humanity - i believe that the basic concepts of power will fall away as man crosses that bridge.



I'd like to know if you have a strategy that could bridge us between your vision of human beings living absolute peace and the current reality of the power struggle between man.

Because there is nothing more dangerous then being discontented with the game and sitting on the sidelines while the enemy is waiting to pounce. I am not willing to put idealism on the forefront without a means or method to achieving its goals. There is too much at stake. Everlasting peace to the dreamers could very well mean in their graves if they are unable to stand-up and drudge through the swamp that they so despise.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: looner2]
    #4414449 -

well, i have to get back to work, so i'll come back to this later this evening - but in brief - first i'd say that the concept of man as a 'spiritual being' is much more 'real' to me than the material universe that surrounds me - it has a much deeper and 'more true' basis in reality, a reality that is often clouded by the material universe, but that breaks through every now and again.

as to a strategy, my personal ideas involve using my knowledge/skills in IT to help create technological solutions for connecting like-minded enterprises (read- participatorially managed industries) to create a feasible alternative to the international economic market. this would hopefully continue the work that many people are already doing in creating feasible alternatives to our current system of exchange/economic-planning. additionally, meditation - and lots of it - not just myself, but encouraging everybody i know to try it out themselves, help them as much as i can, etc - to 'cross that bridge'. as well, working and supporting groups that fight for 'social justice' - to attempt to heal some of the wounds that humanity has suffered over the ages...

i most definitely don't see myself as 'sitting on the sidelines' - i see myself both as fighting to bring to light the injustices of the current game, as well as creating a feasible alternative to it - helping to create alternative 'games' that humanity might indulge in.

anyhow, gotta get back to work, but i'll come back later tonight with a more detailed explanation...


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Krishna]
    #4440454 -


as to a strategy, my personal ideas involve using my knowledge/skills in IT to help create technological solutions for connecting like-minded enterprises (read- participatorially managed industries) to create a feasible alternative to the international economic market.

World Peace!


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: belief in the state? [Re: niteowl]
    #4440531 -

niteowl said:
do we have a responsibility to help these countries out?

Yes

I think we could easily bring these countries out of their "third-world status" with the right assistance.

By teaching them how to build their infrastructure so that their countries will prosper and grow. This could be done with very little money, just the cost of a few advisers.




Ha! You really think its that simple?! What do you think the IMF and WB are trying to do?

Here's is some advice that you and many others could do with taking: If you ever have a political opinion that you think would solve a major political issue with relative ease, look closer.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: belief in the state? [Re: Tao]
    #4441764 -

Tao said:
niteowl said:
do we have a responsibility to help these countries out?

Yes

I think we could easily bring these countries out of their "third-world status" with the right assistance.

By teaching them how to build their infrastructure so that their countries will prosper and grow. This could be done with very little money, just the cost of a few advisers.




Ha! You really think its that simple?! What do you think the IMF and WB are trying to do?


Use 'structural-adjustment-policies' to open their markets to 1st world multi-national-corporations, to push an agenda of "free-trade" that has little-to-nothing to do with true free-market-capitalism, and nearly everything to do with "we want to steal your resources and cheap labour to make our own companies richer". in addition, pushing policies of intellectual patenting that screw over 3rd world farmers, prohibit sick populations from getting cheap generic medicines, not to mention what they do to the environment. in addition, forcing debt payements on loans that were taken by corrupt dictators (that were often supported during their reign by the 1st world) and stolen from the population, etc etc etc ad naseum.

while there may be some individuals in the IMF and WB who want to help out 3rd world countries, i would say the history of these organizations, as well as their current work, clearly show that they aren't trying to 'help' out anybody - they are trying to make an economic situation where the affluent can get even more rich, legally.


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