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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005147 -

Teonan and the Bush supporters are gravely mistaken. Bush's entire administration is awash with ex-oil executives, and the US$23 million funding from Exxon Mobil helped elect Bush in the first place.
To think that the US political system in anyway resembles true democracy is to profoundly ignorant of politics - the vote counting in your recent presidential election demonstrates just how much better the English/Australian/etc Westminster political system actually is. We have rules in this country that enable a person from any walk of life to become a representative of their electrorate - and we dont have to win financially depended party 'primaries' inorder to get endorsement for a presidential campaign - which requires huge amounts of financial support to maintain - requiring the candidate to arse-lick every corporate agenda they can find for the $$.

America is the land of the free?
USA holds the highest amount of its own citizens in custody of any nation, one quarter of the global amount of people incarcerated are behind bars in USA. Minus ofcourse the 152 inmates executed in Texas while George W.Bush was governor - a state that does not provide any financial legal aid to the poor.
America fosters unbridled competition, the the benefit of all?
four companies now own 87% of the american beef industry, 84% of cereal, and two US companies own 79% of the grain industry.
Happiness is honoured?
According to prozac manufacturer, America has the highest amount of citizens of any world nation requiring medication for clinical depression.
America promotes the global expansion of human rights?
America refused to sign almost all UN treaties regarding human rights - as well as not ratifying the Kyoto treaty, they did not ratify treaties on war crimes, biochemical weapons, the prohibition of the execution of juveniles, arms controls, and even the convention on the rights of the child. (alone with Somalia).
US citizens although only 5% of world population, use 35% of the planets resources, produce more global-warming emissions per person, consumes a quarter of the world's oil, a third of its paper, 40% of beef and veal.
Iraq and its invasion us purely an attempt by bush and his oil-hungary barons - to secure a cheaper alternative to Saudi price increases...
God bless AmeriKKKa :smile:


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005250 -

Im having such fun talking to you and learning so much about myself!

"excuse me? Your dimwitted responses (and i use response loosly because you avoid any area where you actually have to express yourself logically). Yet again typical European have all the answers but can't come up with any that work...it must suck to never take a stand..hmm"

This is rich coming from you. If you take the time to read what has been said you will see that you havent actually said anything beyond one line denounciations of anything I have said and cheap put downs. - If you want to debate me on some of the answers I have given i am more than happy to do so but please stop all this petty name calling(i.e libbie,limey etc etc) and my pay cheque is bigger than yours crap. Unless of course this is how you derive your pleasure in life. If so, fair enuff.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1005266 -

****If you want to debate me on some of the answers I have given *****

you've given answers?..where?

****stop all this petty name calling(i.e libbie,limey etc etc) ****

sorry but limey is similar to people calling us yanks...and libbie is my trademark expression for liberals (because you're all wacky) so you'll just have to deal with it...

****and my pay cheque is bigger than yours crap****

that was alex, limey

****Unless of course this is how you derive your pleasure in life. If so, fair enuff.*****

wow...you nailed it


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005336 -

What a waste of bandwidth you truly are. I would like to hear you counter the excellent points made by BlueMeanie in his last post. Try not sinking to your normal level and actually string a few coherent sentences together that actually contain information rather than the incessant ego drone which is all you have generated so far.

PEACE


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Always Smi2le

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1005347 -

****What a waste of bandwidth you truly are****

Then why are you still replying to me?  Do you need attention that bad?

****I would like to hear you counter the excellent points made by BlueMeanie in his last post. ****

i just might...seeing that you had no excellent points in your posts..

****Try not sinking to your normal level and actually string a few coherent sentences together that actually contain information rather than the incessant ego drone which is all you have generated so far.****

do you actually think i give a shit what you think?  A) you have no beliefs B) you're afraid to make a stand on anything and C) it's too much fun seeing you get frustrated.....silly libbie :smirk:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005375 -

Your so right.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1005419 -

***Bush's entire administration is awash with ex-oil executives, and the US$23 million funding from Exxon Mobil helped elect Bush in the first place. ****

would you say that the hollywood left are just as evil as the oil exects? if not why?

****To think that the US political system in anyway resembles true democracy is to profoundly ignorant of politics ****

I can't argue with that

****the vote counting in your recent presidential election demonstrates just how much better the English/Australian/etc Westminster political system actually is.****

are you discussing the Florida mishap or the electoral college? I like the electoral college because it forces the candidate to get out of the cities and reach people that are considered "flyovers".

as for better that is just an opinion and can be debated i guess..

****We have rules in this country that enable a person from any walk of life to become a representative of their electrorate ****

as do we..it's just that there are so many people out there that think they have a right to be heard...NOONE has that right. They have a right to speak but NOT to be heard.

****and we dont have to win financially depended party 'primaries' inorder to get endorsement for a presidential campaign ****

So? i'm not seeing as where this even matters.

****which requires huge amounts of financial support to maintain - requiring the candidate to arse-lick every corporate agenda they can find for the $$. ****

i agree that there should be less financial dependence when it comes to elections but it's what the market bears...if you want an ad then you HAVE to pay..no free rides i say. Bloomberg spent millions and barely got elected (relativly speaking)..just because someone has money does not make them A) evil nor B) to be mistrusted...it's got a lot to do with beinf a capitalist society.

****USA holds the highest amount of its own citizens in custody of any nation, one quarter of the global amount of people incarcerated are behind bars in USA****

if you ask me we need to lock up a few more for crimes that require it. Now you will get no argument from me when it comes to the war on drugs. I believe those that got busted for doing pot should be set free.

****Minus ofcourse the 152 inmates executed in Texas while George W.Bush was governor - a state that does not provide any financial legal aid to the poor.****

this is wrong. Every state offers legal aid to it's financially challenged citizins ie: Meranda!!

****four companies now own 87% of the american beef industry, 84% of cereal, and two US companies own 79% of the grain industry.****

i don't have a problem if these companies own as much as they do. Do they violate the anti-trust rules? if not then i don't see your point.

****According to prozac manufacturer, America has the highest amount of citizens of any world nation requiring medication for clinical depression.****

I agree that this dependence on prozac is plain stupid. I see it as a society that cannot handle failure ie: the libbie philosophy that everything is right and protect everyone's self-esteem

****America refused to sign almost all UN treaties regarding human rights - as well as not ratifying the Kyoto treaty, they did not ratify treaties on war crimes, biochemical weapons, the prohibition of the execution of juveniles, arms controls, and even the convention on the rights of the child. (alone with Somalia).****

as for Kyoto - it just plain sucked and only a couple countries signed it...australia, Britain, the US, etc. never signed it...why?
treaties on war crimes? what treaty are you talking about? (what did it contain?)
biochemical weapons? What about them? what don't you like about them (serious question)
the prohibition of juviniles? I'm 100% in favor of the death penalty..if a juvinile kills someone in cold blood i say fry 'em...
arms controls? like what?
I'm not familiar with the convention on the rights of the child. with this said what is it that we do that violates a childs rights?

****US citizens although only 5% of world population, use 35% of the planets resources****
****consumes a quarter of the world's oil, a third of its paper, 40% of beef and veal.****

we also produce more than any other country and export...we're the third largest country in both population and area..relativly speaking if we were the size of germany that would be greatly reduced...

***produce more global-warming emissions per person***

global warming is a unproven theory..the oceans produce more greenhouse gasses that all the humans combined...CO2



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005501 -

The oceans, just like the lands, have a balance of respiration and photosynthesis. In the warmer parts CO2 is released from the water, in the colder parts it's absorbed. Same thing happens with O2. If the oceans, originally part of a balanced system, are releasing enough CO2 to cause the increase (10 percent in the last forty years), it's probably because we've eaten all the fish and killed all the reefs.

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: akjakj]
    #1005543 -

Why don't luvdemshrooms, Mr Mushrooms and innervertigo all write a letter to Bush telling him how much they adore him. At the end they could mention that they all take schedule 1 mushrooms. See what the reaction is. At least that will get them our of our hair for a few years.

Son, you need to get your facts straight.

1.  Please point out where I EVER said I adore President Bush.

2.  Please point out where I ever said I ingested illegal mushrooms.

I have done more for the decriminalization than you will ever do.  I adore freedom, don't you?

1.  You have me confused with someone else.

2.  You are an idiots puppet.

I'll see what I can do to get you banned.

Now crawl back under the rock you came from, Al..  er I mean, akjakj.

:smirk: 

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1005617 -

****Al.. er I mean, akjakj****

I was thinking the same thing :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1005626 -

****If the oceans, originally part of a balanced system, are releasing enough CO2 to cause the increase (10 percent in the last forty years), ****

10%? that's extremely low..i'm not questioning your source but where did you get 10% from?

****it's probably because we've eaten all the fish and killed all the reefs. ****

that's a pretty bold statement. I disagree however greatly.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1008703 -

You aren't paying attention to what I said.

It doesn't matter how much money a corporation is able to indirectly funnel to a politician. Votes get them elected. You have to threaten the one who has the best chance of winning with your ACCUMULATED VOTING POWER.

If your canidate doesn't vote your way, they don't get elected. Votes are more powerful then MONEY. Money can only be used to aquire more votes through exposure. The most terrifying thing to a politician is being assured that X amount of votes will go against them, and cause them to lose an election, if they don't go your way on the issue. Voting pressure is direct, and legal. Money acts indirectly, or it is ILLEGAL.

How many registered voters agree with your position on any specific law? How many are willing to vote entirely on that position?

You keep talking about corporate welfare. How many people out there at large that vote, are on your side of the issue? What specific congressman run that specific part of congress? Who is against your position and who is for it? How many of them are against it? Who many of those are running in a close campaign race? How many were last time that are up for reelection?

You can't convince someone who is guarenteed a win, no matter how you vote. Like voting in a state that is predominantly one party or the other. You apply pressure only where it counts the most, and can hurt them the most.

Look at the situation of congress right now. Imagine how important certain elections are for the republicans and the democrats. A few elections going the other way could really cause problems for each party. This gives the VOTERS extreme power. All you have to do is Organize, and execute your power of influence.

No one living legally in the USA is without influence. Most just choose to Complain about the problems versus trying to actually change them. You seem to actually submit to just complaining about what disturbs you instead of motivating and influencing a change.

May I suggest a great book on the influence of VOTING POWER and Lobbying.

They Dare To Speak Out, by Paul Findley
This book will sum up the United States Stance on Israel and Palestine by showing you EXACTLY who is doing the influencing, and how. I would say this is the greatest book I have ever read on the American system of politics. What the Israeli lobby has done, can be done by any Special interest group that represents a mildly significant part of the voting population.

It is a Map for Lobbying the United States government and getting your way.

You act like politicians aren't real people. Do you imagine they don't own business's? They don't have money invested in business? Don't have their own special interests, or own group of like minded individuals working towards a common goal.

The way you make it seem, less then one percent of the population has more power then the remainder of society. You imagine this in a democratic society, that has a constitution?

What you fail to realize is that majority of the population gets their employment through these corporations, invests their personal savings in these companies. That majority is the one voting against you. The country is almost divided down the center republican/democrat. This gives Groups of voters EXTREME POWER. You just need to figure out how to organize it and use it. Look how much power the NADER group had, they just used it the wrong way. In the end, they caused the defeat of the party who closer represented their beliefs. In stead of using that power to vote third party, they could have influenced the direction the party they chose to help get elected, versus having absolutely no power within the party they indirectly helped get elected.

Excessive salaries are approved by the major stockholders of a company. They are approved by the owners of the company. Imagine someone telling you, you can only have this percentage of the income of a company, that you built and run, and probably own.

To complain about the entire system because a few Criminals, commited fraud at the expense of their companies stockholders and employees, is rediculous.

Imagine if you represented 20percent of the voting population in the majority of voting districts. If you can show that this twenty percent will be guarenteed to vote for or against a canidate depending on how they deal with your particular interests, you have more power then any monetary donation. It costs money to campain for votes, it takes votes to get elected. Money just allows you to seak votes, that aren't guarenteed.

If you are a politician, and a large group of people come up to you and say, we will all vote for you and keep voting for you if you support our position, what will you do.

You will compare the cost of losing money to aquire X amount of possible votes, versus LOSSING Y amount of votes if you go against the will of those voters.

X has to be significantly higher then Y to allow that politician to say @#$$ off.

Florida presidential election, that decided the outcome of the election, was by a margin of 537 votes. Nader got 97,000 votes. Think of the power those 97, 000 people had, and squandered on voting for NADER.

How many races are tight for Congressional positions? Some states are so one sided that you can't influence them. Alot are not. Power is there for the influencing. Are you gonna play, or are you gonna sit on the sidelines and BITCH and MOAN when your team losses?

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1008967 -

sounds like a good book. I still think in this day and age we need to vote on more issues rather than trying to persuade one politician to see our point of view. It is too slow and cumbersome a system. I cant speak about the US system as I dont have much knowledge of it but the UK parliament is basically archaic and hasnt changed much in its methods in the last hundred years.


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Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (10/31/02 02:30 AM)

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1009089 -

Invertigo - democracy as theory is a state where every governmentary decision is made by all its citizens by referendum. To think that this occurs in America is demonstrating supreme ignorance.
Invertigo is wrong on many key points - Industrial America is directly responsible for one quarter of the world's green house gases (20 tonnes per year). The Intergovernmental Panel on CLimate Change reported that in the 1990s were the hottest years/decade on record - 1998 being the hottest year globally and 2001 being the second hottest on record. The Bush administration is response was that 'we can expect large-scale future and possibly irreversible changes to Earth's environmental systems.'
And the worst state for clogging the air with toxic fumes is good ole' texas - top for carbon dioxide, mercury, and top for clear-water violations, in the US - and the worst polluters are the corps that bankroled Bush's presidentary campaign - Enron, Exxon-Mobil, Shell, Amoco and Alcoa Aluminum
Again Teonan your making teh basic assumption that voter apathy does no exist in america and that the ballot is not already influenced. All the candidates have had to arselick every corporate agenda, promote corporate welfare in order to receive the funding to run a governmental or presidencial campaign. Only those who receive this funding and are ofcourse completely biased to corporate agenda are able to contend for government. The choice is already redundant.
Politics itself is all about firstly perceiving a societal problem - real or imagined - and making it an issue that requires a response - the only issues that are raised are those that the candidate feels they can effectively respond to - so voters vote for the lesser of evils - the guy who will lower their taxes, while at the same time doom them to pollutants, protect the rich, destroy social welfare and send to holywar oblivion.
And ill post about texan law system next


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1009137 -

Profoundly ignorant of politics?

The USA is a democracy, but we have a constitution.  It is the constitution that makes it an impure democracy, not special interest financing of politicians.  Corporations are owned by citizens, and it is THOSE citizens VOICE that is being heard when they donate money to help elect an official.

We are a free society.  Every aspect of America is privately owned.  So of course, the money to enable politicians to be elected will come from the people. Some in the form of individual contribution, and some in the form of PAC contributions.  These doesn't make the system non democratic.  The people vote in the canidates.  All the money in the world can't win you an election, if your views are not supported by the majority of voters.

We rely on the PARTICIPATION of people in the ELECTION and LOBBY process.  If people don't participate in the latter, they are missing out on the POLITICS of AMERICA.

Corporations are PEOPLE!!!!  This is AMERICA, not CHINA. The state doesn't own them, private citizens do. 

A pure democracy is worthless, that is MOB RULES.  Without the constitution this country would not be succesful.  It certainly wouldn't be as DIVERSE as it is.  This is an immigrant nation.  Emphasis on IMMIGRATION.  We choose to leave your systems of politics, to live under this one.  We did so for our own self interests.

You can agree or disagree with whatever you find offensive about our government(people).  We don't really care!!!  We are not gonna stop looking out for our own best interests to appease you.

If you want to effect change in US policy, you have to be a citizen, and take advantage of your freedoms. 

The military/industrial/polluting complex guarentees my FREEDOM.  The last thing in the world I want to do, is try and limit theirs, becuase I have some Idealogical notion that the world can be peaceful.  IT NEVER HAS BEEN, NEVER!!!

You actually want me to pretend that Iraq has complied with DISARMARMENT.  You want me to pretend that Russia, China, France, Germany, etc... have my best interests in mind.  You must be smoking some good shit over their in OZ. 

You actually want me to believe that the citizens of IRAQ want to continue under the rule of Saddam?  Those that live here in the US and have relatives in Iraq still, seem to have a FAR different opinion then YOU. 

Are you telling me that you live ina Home that uses no Energy.  You walk everywhere.  You only consume food that was grown in your own garden, without pesticides, or fertilizer.  You consume only meat, that you raised personally, and you were able to do it without disturbing the environment at all.  You consume no goods produced in the USA, no MOVIES, no MUSIC, no food, no medicines, nothing?  Everything you participate in has absolutely no connection to the USA. :confused: 

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1009172 -

I never stated there wasn't voter apathy. That is the problem. But you have to understand that people choose canidates through active participation in politics. The last thing you want to do is wait for the actual general election day to voice your opinion.

I am stating that YOU are free to get involved in this country. You are not under a ruling class, unless you choose not to participate. The lesser of two evils theory relates only to those who choose not to be involved other then election day. That is there CHOICE. It is still freedom.

You really haven't been paying attention to my posts!!!

I know All laws and agendas are worked out prior to the vote. Prior to elections, and prior to individual votes within the legislature. Any individual in the Country can influence the agenda prior to the vote. It just takes time , effort and money. If you have no money, it takes alot more PLANNING. In the end voters elect canidates to there party, and they elect the canidates to office. You are just trying to convince yourself that Corporations aren't people. They are. All these EVIL companies that sponsor the EVIL administration are AMERICAN CITIZENS, using their freedom to effect GOVERNMENT policy. That is a nation of the people and for the people.
THIS is FREEDOM.
If you are representing an agenda that is counter to the majority opinion, you have to be BETTER organized, and have GREAT TIMING. You can have your agenda respected.

I assure you I understand the process very well!!!

I just refuse to allow anyone to blame the USA for all the worlds problems. The entire world has been more then willing to dish up the resources to fuel our MACHINE.

Your posts make it seem like the AVERAGE AMERICAN is powerless, and I assure you the average AMERICAN has more power then YOU. With that power comes responsibility, of course. But you can't hold us any more accountable then the rest of the NATIONS in the world.




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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009257 -

You don't lobby one politician you lobby all of them. You pay particular attention to the ones who will be most hurt by your group voting against them.

The only succesful lobby is non partisan. It gives it's support to any canidate that will support it's cause.


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1009315 -

****Invertigo - democracy as theory is a state where every governmentary decision is made by all its citizens by referendum. ****

no democracy is mob rule...

****Invertigo is wrong on many key points - Industrial America is directly responsible for one quarter of the world's green house gases ****

sorry but the oceans are responsible for a majority of greenhouse gas (co2)...it's too convieniant to blame in on america..and predictable.

****The Bush administration is response was that 'we can expect large-scale future and possibly irreversible changes to Earth's environmental systems.'****

what? when did he say this?

****1990s were the hottest years/decade on record - 1998 being the hottest year globally and 2001 being the second hottest on record.****

how come the average temperature since recorded went down then?

I suggest you look into a video called "the greening of planet earth" or do a search on it if you want. It's pretty interesting how these scientists go against the mainstream (bought and paid for) scientists that are crying that the sky is falling.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009389 -

"...i'm not questioning your source but where did you get 10% from?"
From my source that you're not questioning.  :grin:

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/service/gallery/fact_sheets/earthsci/green.htm

"Atmospheric CO2 has increased about 25 percent since the early 1800s. Climatologists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., estimate the increase since 1958 has been about 10 percent. Currently, the level of atmospheric C 2 is increasing at a rate of about 0.4 percent a year."

This one shows it at about 12 percent:
http://www.cnie.org/pop/CO2/impacts.htm#Figure%203

"that's a pretty bold statement. I disagree however greatly."

It's easy to disagree with an obvious exaggeration.  Put it this way: the earth's ecosystems have evolved into a balance.  Certain parts of the program took the carbon out of CO2 and made fruit with it, and let out the O2.  Other parts took the O2 in and stuck a C back onto it after eating the fruit, and let that out.  For a while there was also a management component, but it got wiped out through evolution.  Unnecessary. 

For millions of years, the system developed into something pretty well-balanced.  Considering the steady increases in the past century, I just don't see how anyone can deny that human activity from the industrial revolution to present is a part of the increase.  And yes, that includes disruption to the ocean's eco-system. 

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1009403 -

i meant the validity of your source...sorry


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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