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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Collapse of Industrial Civilization
    #2337516 - 02/15/04 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is from http://www.inthewake.netfirms.com/


The collapse of industrial civilization is inevitable.
Currently we are in a situation where industrial civilization requires more and more energy each year to persist. The industrialized population is growing. Capitalism is doing its best to ensure that every person in the population consumes more each year. The infrastructure of civilization is becoming larger and more complex, and requires ever-increasing amounts of energy just to maintain it. Also, human-caused ecological catastrophies require increasingly large amounts of energy to cope with. The water table, for example, in China's breadbasket is dropping by 3 to 10 feet a year, which means that massive energy expenditures (and the depletion of water elsewhere) will be required just to keep their yields the same. (Which is not currently happening. For the past four years, civilization has consumed more grain than it produced, last year by a margin of almost twice the annual grain ouput of Canada.) Global warming and climate change will also require energy compensation to keep industrial civilization from flying apart. An Intergovernmental Panel has found that by 2065, monetary costs of weather damage caused by climate change will exceed the entire planet's gross domestic product.

But at the same time, evidence shows it as likely that we have already used more than half of our planet's available fossil fuel reserves. Which means that, according to Hubbert's curve, we will have less and less energy available to us each year until we run out completely.

Often when I talk about this to people for the first time, they say, "Well, have you heard about this new hybrid car?" or "Yes, I think the government had better start putting more energy into renewable technologies." I think that in the case of renewables, the solution would be worse than the problem. For instance, to run the all cars in England on corn-ethanol would require that the entire land area of England be cultivated with corn. Which of course, is impossible, since you would have to get rid of the cities and highways to have enough space, and then where would the cars drive? And even then, you still don't have energy to light and heat houses that the car drivers live in, or the offices that they work at. You don't have energy to run the factories that manufacture their cars, or the replacement parts to repair them. You don't have energy for the police stations, or least of all the military, which are the "hidden fist of the hidden hand" which help to keep this whole system going.

Clearly this situation will not last. Eventually the upward energy consumption trend and the downward availability trend will collide catastrophically. The result will be the collapse of industrial civilization, and there is nothing that anyone can do to stop it.

But there are things that people can do about it, during and after it. Which is what this book is for.

Liberty, democracy and ecological sanity are not compatible with industrial civilization.

Industrial civilization will destroy more human and living communities the longer it lasts. Hence, the longer it exists, the worse are our chances for survival.

Therefore, it is desirable that industrial civilization should end as soon as possible.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2337584 - 02/15/04 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

my prediction for the future is progress and prosperity, but i've still got plenty of ammo and nonperishables of course.  :wink:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2337595 - 02/15/04 04:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That prediction is groundless if you look at the actual numbers of what we've got and how much we use. Remember, oil probably peaked in 2000. After that it gets progressively more expensive. Considering every single thing we do in this civilization depends upon oil it's pretty clear we're in for a crash.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2337655 - 02/15/04 04:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

there will not come a day when all of the sudden, the lights go out, the heat dies, you drive to the gas station and they have a sign saying, "sorry, the earth ran out of oil last night". it will be a gradual process. as oil becomes more scarce, it will become more expensive. as it becomes more expensive, we're gonna start using less of it and it will be more economically feasable to develop alternative energy sources. the technology is out there, but there's no reason to develop it so long as we've got cheap crude sitting under our noses. it's gonna be fine.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2337703 - 02/15/04 04:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

my prediction for the future is progress and prosperity

Who for mush? What kind of future do you see for your kids in this neocon paradise? When technological jobs in the US increasingly going the same way as factory jobs overseas to places like India? What line of work do you think your kids will be able to earn a living in that an Indian can't do for a fraction of the wage?


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2337715 - 02/15/04 04:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who for mush?

for everyone.

excuse me, but are we talking about tariffs now?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2337729 - 02/15/04 04:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, you've heard about offshoring in the computer industry? Jobs being done by highly educated americans are now being shipped out to India.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2337751 - 02/15/04 04:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, i've heard of that. how does it have anything to do with peak oil and the collapse of industrial society?

if you wanna talk about outsourcing, tariffs, etc, bump carbonhoots' recent thread on the issue.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2337776 - 02/15/04 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It was referring to your prediction of progress and prosperity.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2337811 - 02/15/04 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

this thread is about dwindling natural resources and how left "unchecked", our current rate of consumption will soon cause the downfall of society as we know it. rather than debate the ins and outs of free trade here, let's stay on topic. i'm sure anyone could come up with a lot of reasons to refute my prediction of progress and prosperity, but unless it's got something to do with the topic of this thread, it would be more appropriate to create a new thread or bump a relevant one.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2338234 - 02/15/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

NiamhNyx said:
This is from http://www.inthewake.netfirms.com/
The collapse of industrial civilization is inevitable.




Everything that is existential has a beginning and an end. I'm not sure if the industrial civilization will cease to be in the foreseeable future, or if it will morph into a civilization that has solved some of the problems that are caused by industry, such as pollution. In about five billion years, our sun will run out of hydrogen to fuse and will start fusing helium, and the earth will dry up and all life on earth will die. A reassuring thought :smile:
Quote:


Industrial civilization will destroy more human and living communities the longer it lasts. Hence, the longer it exists, the worse are our chances for survival.




Sorry to not respond to some of the excellent points that were in this article, but I think that this statement sums it up.  The absolute worst that humans could do to this planet, short of destroying it with nuclear weapons, would make it inhabitable for human life.  IF this happened, in a few million years, most traces of human existance would disappear, nature would take back everything that we've taken from her, and the earth would be a better place.  Most "environmentalists" seem to be concerned with the ability of the Earth to sustain human creatures, which is logical since we are humans, but when they say that we could "destroy" the earth, I always think that is a great exaggeration.  Even if we could destroy the earth, which would take using all of our nuclear arsenals to do, the universe would still exist.  Most problems that we humans face are so short-term and display our ignorance of the universe and it's workings.  I can assure you that no matter what man does, our planet will be made uninhabitable by natural causes at some point in the future. It really puts things in perspective :smile:
Quote:


Therefore, it is desirable that industrial civilization should end as soon as possible.



Or that it should evolve to a state where the impact on the earth is lessened.  I'd say that our "industrialized" society, that is, western europe and America, probably produce less pollution per capita than third world nations do and we probably do more to make the earth a better place than most third world nations do.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2338237 - 02/15/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

but i've still got plenty of ammo and nonperishables of course.




I know you are joking but some people have ammo. Why the ammo? Is it for use against the poor who will be the first victim of high gas prices? Yes. Rich people are not going to be roaming for food. The moment the poor can't get to their shitty jobs cause the price of gas is too high is the day the shit is going to hit the fan. The gov won't let you keep or have ammo when the shit hits the fan, they have homeland security to protect ya. And you'll have to just ride out the hard times. No offense against India, but thats where we are headed.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2338239 - 02/15/04 06:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

We have enough coal to last us another 300 years.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338248 - 02/15/04 06:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

We have enough coal to last us another 300 years. 







Try sticking a lump of coal in your gas tank. Won't work!  :grin:


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338262 - 02/15/04 07:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

as we run out of oil, it will become more expensive. i've been to countries in europe where gasoline costs more per liter than it does per gallon here. they tend to use public transportation more, drive smaller vehicles, ride bicycles, etc, etc, etc, in those places, and you know what, the shit hasn't "hit the fan" there yet, and it's not going to.

what do the doomsday people here think should be done about this oil crisis?


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2338282 - 02/15/04 07:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i've been to countries in europe where gasoline costs more per liter than it does per gallon here. they tend to use public transportation more,




I lived and worked in germany for 12 years. They have a public transportation system, we do not. We have nothing compared to them. And I have read that it would be economically impossible for the usa to start one. We are broke. The usa was built without public transportation in mind. Germany always had public transportation and built their cities around such a system. We don't even have bike paths. Every sidewalk in germany has a bike path next to it. We are screwed.


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338304 - 02/15/04 07:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ever heard of electricity?


How about electric cars?


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338317 - 02/15/04 07:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

  Ever heard of electricity?


How about electric cars?




Poor people can't even pay their electric bill and you expect them to buy a new electric car? Anyway we are not tooled up to produce the amount of cars and electricity to power them that will be needed in order to avoid chaos. Remember there are 53 million living on 15k or less in the usa. Thats alot of people and it only takes a week of no food to piss em all off.  :mad2:
This country was built on the fly.


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338341 - 02/15/04 07:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well it won't really affect the people who already can't afford cars now will it?

I think electric cars will be cheaper than gasoline cars when they catch on. They're actually alot less complicated than heavy expensive internal combustion engines and transmissions, something electric cars don't need.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338371 - 02/15/04 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well it won't really affect the people who already can't afford cars now will it?





Nope, they will just get mugged alot more often. I don't think it will affect the middle class that much either. I'll pay up to 20bucks a gallon before I start to have trouble.
Its the poor saps who work at shitty jobs just making ends meat and have to drive to work, and there are alot of them, that are going to go through hell.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338385 - 02/15/04 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

So when the people who are driving gasoline cars are driving electric cars this will cause the people who can't afford cars to get mugged more?


And this will be because why?


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338413 - 02/15/04 08:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I think electric cars will be cheaper than gasoline cars when they catch on. They're actually alot less complicated than heavy expensive internal combustion engines and transmissions, something electric cars don't need.





The auto industry is going to love making a cheaper product, and enjoy not selling the parts for the combustion engines and transmissions. And all those gas and repair stations are going to love it too.
I think we can't get away from the combustion engine in time to avoid chaos.
We opted to take over oil fields way back in the 1940's. We placed evil puppets on top of every single country that has minerals so we could shoot them in the head without any complaints from the world community when the time came to harvest what we need.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338436 - 02/15/04 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The auto industry isn't going to have a choice. If they don't make them, then someone else will.

If GM won't make them, then GE will.

They won't sell any cars if there is no fuel to run them on.

Also, look into thermal depolymerization. ConAgra has a nice project going on with that.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338451 - 02/15/04 08:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So when the people who are driving gasoline cars are driving electric cars this will cause the people who can't afford cars to get mugged more?





Crime is going to rise.Or do you think it won't?  There is going to be a whole class of people who can't afford an electric car and who can't afford the high price of gas to get to their shitty job. What are they gonna do? I think they are going to do what they have to do to survive. Some are going to begin a life of crime. 
You will be walking. Carrying food from the grocery store out in the open could be very dangerous. :laugh:


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338483 - 02/15/04 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The auto industry isn't going to have a choice. If they don't make them, then someone else will.

If GM won't make them, then GE will.

They won't sell any cars if there is no fuel to run them on.

Also, look into thermal depolymerization. ConAgra has a nice project going on with that. 




There will be fuel, I think its going to be like in europe, it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon. Only we don't have a public transportation system to pick up the poor saps who can't afford $6+ a gallon. So I think we are going to have chaos and increased crime.

ConAgra and a whole bunch of others have great solutions. :thumbup: Holland, germany and a whole shitloasd of countries have cool cars, buses that use alt energy and they have electric trains that DO move the whole workforce to its jobs everyday.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338489 - 02/15/04 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Crime will be about the same. Poverty will be about the same. Everything will be about the same.


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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338505 - 02/15/04 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

People will learn how to ride motorcycles to get to work.

one $6 gallon will get them back and forth to work.

An electric motorcycle will get them back and forth to work several times for $6.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2338553 - 02/15/04 08:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crime will be about the same. Poverty will be about the same. Everything will be about the same.




A smooth transition would be best. But not very american when you take a look at our history. My grandparents went through the great depression and I think something like that could happen if gas reaches a certain price. Where I live there are people who can't pay their oil heating bills and get by with help from the community. An old woman froze to death in her house a few towns over during the last cold spell cause she could'nt pay her oil heating bill. And the price of oil went up only a few cents.


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Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338606 - 02/15/04 09:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

On topic I do believe that something will have to give. Sure we have oil here to last us for a long time, it's just that there's not enough ecomically affordable oil. Since we most likel yhave done this, the decline will be fast. why? we need oil for everything! our mass agriculture is based on machines the run on oil!

a medium sized cost increase everywhere would send this economy crashing down quickly because we realy SO MCUH on it.

the more expensive it becomes to dig, the more expensive things will get.

the change won't be gradual at all, it's comon sense here. think about it



"An old woman froze to death in her house a few towns over during the last cold spell cause she could'nt pay her oil heating bill. And the price of oil went up only a few cents."

off topic

chaos is already here. people already can't eat. people are already dying on the streets, and no one says shit!

I can go to sacramento right now and see a huge 9 foot wall filled with missing persons. and that's just one city.

the poor saps inthis country are the 5+ million children that will go hungry tonight.

shit man a meth lab just exploded last week, four houses down, it's stupid here. and if it's stupid here, then it's definately stupid in many other areas.




I live right next to Oaland, and 21 people have been murdered there this year and feb is jsut about halfway over

yesterday was valentines day, and there were weddings. one wedding in my town involved 5 people getting stabbed, 3 fatally.

crime is always on the rise. Around here most people around my age (22) carry guns on them. they have no problem shooting at the police. my town is stupid small and we had one cop already die this year.

powple don't really care much, and will be quick to run into your house.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2338875 - 02/15/04 10:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

nd I have read that it would be economically impossible for the usa to start one. We are broke.

who is broke?

We don't even have bike paths. Every sidewalk in germany has a bike path next to it. We are screwed.

when it becomes economically sound to do so, we'll build them. right now, we've got cheap oil to burn, so we're driving cars. if that changes, so will we.

i ask again... what should actually be done about this coming oil crisis?


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2338900 - 02/15/04 10:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That sucks.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2338986 - 02/15/04 11:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

 
Quote:

who is broke?





My town is broke. They could'nt even afford salt for the roads this winter after the third storm. Some states are broke. CA elected Arnold to help get them out, my state is broke, maybe yours is too. The us gov is really broke.

Quote:

  i ask again... what should actually be done about this coming oil crisis?




The fat cats in charge have the responsibility to make sure something is done. First they will forclose on everyone who can't pay their house payments. Thats how they get their land back that they sold to you, just like they did during the depression. Then they will make huge profits off the last of the oil reserves. All the while they will be sending in the us army to pop off the evil puppets that they put in power on top of the oil reserves, from south america, some parts of asia, and the middle east. Meanwhile the new poor will be working on government construction projects like getting the power girds up to date, building hydro elec dams and wind farms, laying down train tracks for elec trains for public transportation. Then those electric cars will be out on the market and things will get back to normal. The new poor will be able to buy a house again etc.
How does that sound?  :grin: Its the best I can come up with based on the fat cats history of handeling things.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2339012 - 02/15/04 11:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

My town is broke. They could'nt even afford salt for the roads this winter after the third storm. Some states are broke. CA elected Arnold to help get them out, my state is broke, maybe yours is too. The us gov is really broke.

why does that matter here?

you know... sometimes problems do get solved without the state's intervention. :smirk:

The fat cats in charge have the responsibility to make sure something is done.

what should that something be?


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2339072 - 02/15/04 11:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

what should that something be?




To make a profit. Thats what will be done. Its easier to let the poor stay poor and make a profit off the reserves. People will be cooking and heating their homes with fecal matter before the oil industry lets the masses use any other kind of energy.
In germany they will be driving around in hydrogen cars, not here, hydrogen is way too explosive to let the masses have. Think of the terrorism potential! At least thats probablly what the oil industry will lobby. In fact I read just that arguement somewhere, thats how I know its really explosive.


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2339097 - 02/15/04 11:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

To make a profit. Thats what will be done.

no, i'm asking you what you think should be done.

People will be cooking and heating their homes with fecal matter before the oil industry lets the masses use any other kind of energy.

lets them use any other kind of energy? when did the oil industry start keeping people from using alternate energy sources? i can tell you that my parents use wood to heat their home and haven't used a drop of heating oil all winter. so far, the oil industry hasn't done a thing to stop them.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2339126 - 02/15/04 11:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

let's them use any other kind of energy? when did the oil industry start keeping people from using alternate energy sources?




I mean as a mainstream form of energy. If everyone put in a wood stove and burned wood it would become illegal. My sister in CA can't use her fireplace, they have laws as to when they can use it. Anyway, do you know what I mean?


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2339185 - 02/16/04 12:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

no, i'm asking you what you think should be done.

I think its one of those things thats out of our control. BUT we can buy an electric can, insulate our homes, go solar, or wind, and try as best we can on our own to get off the grid. But that takes time, some thinking and money to accomplish so I bet most are going to be at the mercy of the oil corps and won't solve the problem.

What do you think should be done?


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2339264 - 02/16/04 12:23 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Here in a few years I am planning to build my own electric car. It won't meet safty standards that would allow me to sell them (probably) but I should be able to get away with driving it.

It will probably have a zinc-air power cell that I will "recharge" by smelting the zinc oxide back into zinc plates.


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2339297 - 02/16/04 12:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.zevcat.com/  Here is a car you can tank up with a hand bike pump.

Your way ahead of me, I have no idea about smelting zinc oxide, but it sounds very self-sufficient. Are you gonna cal it the baby-hitler? jj :grin:


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2339327 - 02/16/04 12:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, the Baby Hitler wil use Nitrocellulose for fuel.

It will be a nitrocellulose-electric hybrid.


Edited by Baby_Hitler (02/16/04 12:46 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2339588 - 02/16/04 02:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i've been to countries in europe where gasoline costs more per liter than it does per gallon here. they tend to use public transportation more, drive smaller vehicles, ride bicycles,

Then you clearly havn't been to the UK mush. Petrol the most expensive in Europe and car ownership still increasing. With the privatisation of public transport effectively destroying it things ain't looking good. The country came to a standstill a few years ago over the price of petrol.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2339612 - 02/16/04 02:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Here's my perspective on the oil crash and the collapse of industrial civilization.

The collapse is ineitable, not only that but REQUISITE if we are to find a sustainable, free and egalitarian way to live. Civilization is a coercive, oppressive system and it will go. Civilization has dug itself into its own demise and I'm not the least bit sad about the inevitablity of collapse. The sooner the better.

The article I posted pointed out the insufficiency of "alternatives" to replace oil, so reformism is a waste of our precious energy. Instead the work to be done is to decentralize and detechnologize our lives. Simplcity is key. The more complex a society gets the grander and more inevitable its collapse. People will naturally opt towards the simplest lifestyler available.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2339910 - 02/16/04 04:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The first thing you should get rid of is your computer.


The collapse of society won't be as much fun as you think it would be.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2340036 - 02/16/04 05:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon



The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2340149 - 02/16/04 07:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

BUT we can buy an electric car, insulate our homes, go solar, or wind, and try as best we can on our own to get off the grid.

in other words, exactly what we will do when oil starts to get scarce and energy prices start going up.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2340152 - 02/16/04 07:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Petrol the most expensive in Europe and car ownership still increasing. With the privatisation of public transport effectively destroying it things ain't looking good.

if the price of oil gets high enough i assure you that the trend will reverse itself.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2340377 - 02/16/04 10:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

" when did the oil industry start keeping people from using alternate energy sources?"


ok the oil companies are in bush's cabinet. look them up, more than half are current or former CEO's of multi-billion dollar oil companies.

this means our oil companies are involved with our govt (duh!) I think the oil companies influence has been in our govt for a long time. if so why are there still these SUV's that get shitty gas milage on the road?? oh btw, 25K tax cuts to the rich who buy SUV's. doesn't makes sense does it?

so let's see here there's hemp (industrial hemp) that can be mined for oil hella easily!! govt knows this too but won't do shit.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: kaiowas]
    #2340454 - 02/16/04 11:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ok the oil companies are in bush's cabinet. look them up, more than half are current or former CEO's of multi-billion dollar oil companies.

and they've used this power to prevent people from researching, developing, selling, or using alternative energy sources?

so let's see here there's hemp (industrial hemp) that can be mined for oil hella easily!! govt knows this too but won't do shit.

there are countries in the world in which hemp is legal to grow, and petroleum products cost more than they do here. have they switched to hemp energy? no.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2340469 - 02/16/04 11:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1. people will continue to use oil as long as it is the cheapest available source of energy.
2. as oil becomes more expensive than other sources of energy, people will turn to those other sources.
3. if energy becomes more expensive, people will use less of it


as we run out of oil, oil will become more expensive. this will be a gradual process. as it becomes more expensive than other sources of energy, we will use less of it and more of other energy sources. will energy be more expensive? in the short run, certainly. is oil the one and only source of energy? no, it's just the cheapest right now. some day, given the potential for technological progress, i predict that we will be using other energy sources, and energy will be even cheaper than it is now. untold amounts of energy are available on this planet. there is wind, solar, hydroelectric, geothermal, biomass... we could probably even harness the power of lightning.

when the oil starts to run low, yes, energy will (at least in the short run) become more expensive. we will have to learn to use less of it and will have to devote more of our personal finances towards energy reqirements. will it mean the "collapse of industrial civilization"? of course not.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2340605 - 02/16/04 12:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and they've used this power to prevent people from researching, developing, selling, or using alternative energy sources?

They havn't exactly helped have they.

there are countries in the world in which hemp is legal to grow, and petroleum products cost more than they do here. have they switched to hemp energy? no.

Takes a little bit more than that mush. How many corporations market products that can use hemp fuel?


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2340612 - 02/16/04 12:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They havn't exactly helped have they.

which is quite different than prevention.

Takes a little bit more than that mush. How many corporations market products that can use hemp fuel?

none, which is exactly the point. hemp fueled products are not currently economically viable because we still have cheap petroleum (amongst other reasons).


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2340685 - 02/16/04 12:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon



The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.




which is an infinitely better way to spend the $6.00..than to leave it availible to neocon twits..who will use it to further their own selfish interests...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2340695 - 02/16/04 12:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

which is an infinitely better way to spend the $6.00..than to leave it availible to neocon twits..who will use it to further their own selfish interests...

an even better way to "use" it would be not to sieze it in the first place, and let the person that earned it spend it as they see fit.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2340754 - 02/16/04 01:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Leaving aside for the moment the inaccuracies, distortions, baseless speculation and economic ignorance displayed in that article, let's remember that this forum is for discussion of things political, or activist, or legal.

How does the fact that oil is finite relate to --

1) Politics

What are the political implications here? Should the government enact legislation to slow the consumption of this resource?

2) Activism

Does someone here advocate protesting the consumption rate of oil, or starting a letter-writing campaign to legislators, or organizing a boycott of gasoline-consuming cars or whatever?

3) Law

Does someone here have a proposal for a law which will slow the consumption of oil?

In other words, let's try to keep the conversation focused on one of the above areas if possible.

Thank you.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2344388 - 02/17/04 03:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The collapse is ineitable, not only that but REQUISITE if we are to find a sustainable, free and egalitarian way to live. Civilization is a coercive, oppressive system and it will go. Civilization has dug itself into its own demise and I'm not the least bit sad about the inevitablity of collapse. The sooner the better.




what your basically saying is that the best way to stop the train is to speed it up and run it off the tracks...i dont disagree with that...but i wonder..if anyone will actually vote for bush based on that premise...not me...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2344459 - 02/17/04 04:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I used this analogy with a friend earlier tonight.

Civilization is like driving a car really really fast on an icy road. Its been a few miles since we realized we were headed right for the cliff but the driver (an old white man) has convinced the passengers that since we already chose this road we have no choice but to follow it to its end. Personally, I'd rather risk crashing into a few rocks and trees at the side of the road because of swerving than drive right over a cliff. Since everyone else in the car believes we have to continue along the road we chose to its inevitable end what choice does that leave me, in the back seat? I can shut my mouth and pray, scream really loiud, i can jump out of the car, or i can grab the wheel and pull hard.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2345022 - 02/17/04 11:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

what do you think should be done?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: kaiowas]
    #2346264 - 02/17/04 05:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
ok the oil companies are in bush's cabinet. look them up, more than half are current or former CEO's of multi-billion dollar oil companies.




I'd like a link for that, if you please. Do you know who comprises his Cabinet? Was Condi running Exxon? The Don, Amoco?
Quote:


this means our oil companies are involved with our govt (duh!) I think the oil companies influence has been in our govt for a long time.




When you trade in the commodity that the nation uses for fuel, you tend to have some respect. Perhaps the "People for the cuddlation, huggation and luvvation of cuddly, furry, adorable animals" would have more support if the entire world moved on their commodity, but it doesn't.
Quote:


if so why are there still these SUV's that get shitty gas milage on the road??




If you are asserting that "the oil companies" are running the government, and showing as evidence the fact that they allow people to make their own decisions about what vehicles to drive, whats the problem? Shouldn't people have rights?
Quote:


oh btw, 25K tax cuts to the rich who buy SUV's. doesn't makes sense does it?




Not one bit of sense, what the fuck are you talking about? I have an SUV and I have NEVER recieved a 25K tax cut, tho I pay more than that every year. How do I fill this out on my taxes so I'll get a 25K cut?
Quote:


so let's see here there's hemp (industrial hemp) that can be mined for oil hella easily!! govt knows this too but won't do shit.



How, exactly, does one mine for hemp?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2346279 - 02/17/04 05:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon



The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.




which is an infinitely better way to spend the $6.00..than to leave it availible to neocon twits..who will use it to further their own selfish interests...




You missed the point, grandly so. He was stating that the CAUSAL REASON for gasoline being so expensive was the taxes placed on it's sale. Gasoline isn't sold the world round for 6$/gallon, it's sold (I'm not even sure that it's true, I'm going on what alex or someone in the UK said) in the UK for 6 dollars per gallon. How about instead of the communists or the "neocons" having to decide how to spend this tax money, the government just *gasp* DOESNT TAX IT SO MUCH? Gas where I live is running about 1.60$/gallon, why not elimiate the 5 dollars in taxes that they have?

Or is eliminating taxes not in the verbage of a liberal


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Invisibletimetravel
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2346666 - 02/17/04 06:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Not one bit of sense, what the fuck are you talking about? I have an SUV and I have NEVER recieved a 25K tax cut, tho I pay more than that every year. How do I fill this out on my taxes so I'll get a 25K cut?
 



I wrote the 25k off my taxes for buying an suv that cost more than 50k. You have to own a business and use it for business. :laugh:


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2347050 - 02/17/04 07:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How about how the diesel engine was originally designed to run on hemp seed oil. Growing hemp enriches the soil instead of depletes it. It promotes health.

Everyone in NorthAmerica should be building up defences around their hidden plots and hording life sustaining supplies.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2347092 - 02/17/04 08:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How about how the diesel engine was originally designed to run on hemp seed oil.

the first idea was to run it on coal dust, and then he switched to vegetable oil... peanut oil actually. if you own a diesel driven car or truck, you can convert it to run on vegetable oil fairly easily with an inexpensive kit. "biodiesel" can also be made from vegetable oil and fed straight into a nonconverted diesel engine. why aren't more people doing this you ask? because petroleum is still cheaper.

Growing hemp enriches the soil instead of depletes it.

hemp is not a nitrogen-fixing crop. it does not enrich the soil.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2347202 - 02/17/04 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The energy contained in a single lightning stroke can power a 100 Watt light bulb for 90 days, which is equivalent to 215 kWh (kilo-Watt hours).

http://home.fuse.net/engineering/LightningFacts.htm

Around here electricity goes for about $.06 per KiloWatthour. So an average lightning bolt is worth about $13.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2347335 - 02/17/04 09:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Your letting it all go to waste!!! O wait... can capcitors hold electrical strikes from lightning?


--------------------
What?


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2366153 - 02/22/04 01:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

1. people will continue to use oil as long as it is the cheapest available source of energy.
2. as oil becomes more expensive than other sources of energy, people will turn to those other sources.
3. if energy becomes more expensive, people will use less of it




Factories rely on oil to run and so as oil becomes more expensive, unfortunately, it will not be possible to produce solar panels, electric cars, etc. So we need to act now to produce alternative energy run cities if more people are to survive the effects of the oil crash. Check this link I posted in another thread http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net


--------------------
Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: enotake2]
    #2367824 - 02/22/04 02:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Factories rely on oil to run and so as oil becomes more expensive, unfortunately, it will not be possible to produce solar panels, electric cars, etc.

it will not only be possible, it will be profitable. as oil energy becomes more expensive, manufacturing just about anything will indeed become more expensive. it will not become impossible though, and if we are talking about manufacturing technologies for obtaining energy from alternate sources, it the increased rewards will outweigh the increased costs.

1. energy will become more expensive, at least until the technology catches up. life will be harder. it will not however, be a return to something resembling pre-industrial society, or a post-apocalyptic wasteland, or any other doomsday scenario.

2. burning oil does create pollution. increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, and increased temperatures, while they will not, in the grand scheme of life on earth, cause real damage to the ecosystem, they may very well be pretty detrimental to some humans. i believe however, that the costs of limiting greenhouse emissions outweigh the benefits.

don't forget that when we burn oil, we are burning biomass; very, very old biomass. it was once a part of the carbon cycle, and it will be again, whether we dig it up or not. all that coal and oil won't stay buried forever. earth is too dynamic for that.


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OfflineProtester
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2368075 - 02/22/04 03:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I was reading in discover magizen 2 years ago a millionair who owed a chicken processing plant had came up with a way to make synthetic oil from chicken bones and used tires through a procress of heat and pressure and recieved some federal funding to build a facilty 3 miles from his chicken processing plant. But i beleave this to just be a front put on by the man to get federal funding to dispose of his chicken waste


--------------------
I work my shitty 9-5 and I pay my taxes, I'm not hurting anybody else. So why do you care what i do in my spare time.


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