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InvisibleZen Peddler
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USA - the world's rogue state
    #931338 - 10/04/02 09:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It has been drawn to my attention that the French and German governments are attempting in insite a serious outbreak of peace in the world - with United Nations backing!
And who are we going to trust the United Nations or the United States??
After all thanks to Us foreign policy and WTF have nearly 50% unemployment in Argentina! We have hundreds of innocent people killed in the streets in Khazakstan for protesting again the Khazakstani government and the US government provides funds to this despotic regime in return for use of its land for a military base. Why protest larger human rights abuses than present in Iraq, when the regime is letting you plant a base on their soil? Because soil rhymes with oil.... And strangely the current regime is only interested in military action on countries WITH oil....
Any excuse will do. Although the World Trade Centre was destroyed partly by Egyptian citizens, sponsored by Saudi and Bhutani citizens, trained in Afghanistan and Pakistan, with connections in Iran and Syria - lets invade IRAQ!!
After all Saddam tried to kill Bush's dad. More Iraqi and US people must die because George Bush senior somehow discerns that his life was threatened by Saddam Hussein.
The US govt also demonstrated great diplomacy in Sudan with the killing of more innocents - just like Vietnam and Serbia all over again
Go US imperialism - make the world a safer place - filled with McDonalds, Wendys, Burger King, Coke and Jerry Springer!! And when we get fat we can litigate!!


--------------------


Edited by Zen Peddler (10/04/02 09:18 AM)


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #931616 - 10/04/02 12:50 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I have to agree (and it brings me sorrow). None of it makes much sense. I'm just a lowly, misguided, criminally inclined worker though --what do I know? I hope I can escape this B.S. someday.
peace


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OfflineTeon
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #934339 - 10/05/02 01:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Our country lost its was almost a century ago, I fear that it shall never find it's way back.

Love my country, Fear my governemnt.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, have ever been, or will at any future time will be participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any legal statue; be it local, state, or federal law. All posts are works of fiction, and are intended for entertainment purposes only.

Don't just assume anything I or anyone else says is true. Test it for yourself. See if it's true.
Generate more useful information. The world is running desperately low on it.





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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #934345 - 10/05/02 01:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

And who are we going to trust the United Nations or the United States??



The United States.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #934454 - 10/05/02 02:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The United States

Because that's where American Gladiators is from right?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #934692 - 10/05/02 04:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No, it's because the UN has no authority or control over anyone. It's because if we (the US) didn't enforce most of their resolutions no one would pay even the little bit of attention to them that they do now. It's because they're a bunch (for the most part) of morons.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #935909 - 10/06/02 03:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's because they're a bunch (for the most part) of morons.

Sounds like you think everyone is a moron except you. I'm sure you'll go far in life.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #935922 - 10/06/02 03:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

Sounds like you think everyone is a moron except you. I'm sure you'll go far in life.



I'm sure your attitude will get you elected to parliment one day, or a broken nose.

The more I read of your posts the more I thik you're not serious and just trolling. You post good bait though.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936079 - 10/06/02 08:20 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

Sounds like you think everyone is a moron except you. I'm sure you'll go far in life.



No, I happen to know quite a few people who aren't mnorons and whom I respect greatly.
It just happens that you're NOT one of them.
And I've done quite well in life actually.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #936236 - 10/06/02 12:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

And who are we going to trust the United Nations or the United States??



Some choice, choose between a consortium of parasitic foreign organizations or one domestic parasitic organization. Freedom puts my faith in none of the above.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #936316 - 10/06/02 01:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It just happens that you're NOT one of them.

Or the entire United nations?

And I've done quite well in life actually.

Well you're certainly the dumbest asshole I've ever encountered. You've done really well at that  :grin:



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936520 - 10/06/02 03:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Gosh Al, how foolish you can be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936528 - 10/06/02 03:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

(for the most part) of morons.
Is your reading comprehension so poor you don't understand what "for the most part" means?

"For the most part" is not the same as "the entire".

Judging by the lack of thought and comprehension you show you obviously seem to be a bigger moron than I had thought.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #936530 - 10/06/02 03:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You, a man so hopeless his entire life revolves around making unfunny remarks on a shroom board is able to judge the united nations "morons"? What a worthless prick.

I have scraped more intelligent things than you off the bottom of my shoe.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936541 - 10/06/02 03:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Al you sound more and more like the pathetic loser you are with each and every post. Keep it up. Maybe you'll show a glimer if intelligence one day.

I doubt it but you never know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #936545 - 10/06/02 03:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Nope, still not funny.

Keep playing with that two inch dick of yours  :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936547 - 10/06/02 03:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

And even if I was wrong about the UN, I can certainly recognize you for the biggest moron I've ever encountered.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936549 - 10/06/02 03:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I've had enough fun for now. I was hoping for better from you. I guess you've lost whatever originality you started with.

No surprise though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #936554 - 10/06/02 03:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

And even if I was wrong about the UN

Yep you were. Just like you're wrong about everything else.

So lonely you're making two posts in a row? You sound desperate man.

I think you've had enough attention for now. I think you'd better go back to playing with your two inch dick until the next time i pay you some attention.

You truly are the excrement on the bottom of my shoes.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #936562 - 10/06/02 03:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Keep trying.

You go big boy.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #936602 - 10/06/02 03:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

ROFLMAO.

Alex doesn't appear perceptive enough to realize the humor the ignorant bring to those who actually know how to think. Ha ha ha ha. Like shooting fish in a barrel (with no water).

I for one, greatly enjoy your posts.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Evolving]
    #936745 - 10/06/02 04:59 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks. I loved your "fish in a barrel" analogy.

He's almost to easy to even be fun anymore.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #937664 - 10/06/02 10:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

take it to otd you dummies


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Evolving]
    #940382 - 10/07/02 05:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You guys are displaying the ignorance here!
Luvthem you are making me laugh - you have the gall to suggest that most members of the United Nations are 'morons' with no references or anything to back this statement, when the leader of your country cannot evev spell. Since when has the word 'terrorism' become a three syllable word?? as in 'terrism' instead of 'terrorism'
What a retard!!
He could not answer the question 'who is the current military leader of Pakistan?' (someone who he had spent hours apparently discussing the Afghan issue with via satelite and who he had mentioned in a myriad of speeches)
George W.Bush is the dumbest arsehole any country that i am aware of has ever elected - he makes Reagan look smart.
Reagan's attitude to the Presidency was great. He told his members of staff that he only worked as president until 5.30 pm each day and that any required decisions after that time would need to be defered until the next morning, or that they could deal with the situation themselves.
That's how we got the Iran-contra affair.


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #941060 - 10/07/02 09:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Luvthem you are making me laugh

Join the club. Laughing at this moron is always fun!  :grin:




--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Evolving]
    #941072 - 10/07/02 09:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Alex doesn't appear perceptive enough

Oh I don't know, I appeared perceptive enough to embarrass you all to hell by pointing out your third grade logic errors in the "How intelligent are you" thread. No wonder you went so quiet  :grin:

Repeating something that stupid 5 times. That must be a record. The really funny thing is you would never have realised it was stupid if you'd repeated it another 200 times would you?  :grin:

Thanks for the laughs son.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #941415 - 10/08/02 12:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Al, you are a dreamer. Fortunately most of us woke from your nightmare a long time ago.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #941607 - 10/08/02 04:06 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You trust this man?




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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #941699 - 10/08/02 05:51 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Alex, you are delusional. You prove nothing, you refuse to answer direct questions and you ignore any facts that may conflict with your pre-conceived notions. You consistently fall back on the old left-wing 'logic' that if a lie is repeated often enough it must be the truth. A discussion with you is like bantering with the town simpleton who is incapable of understanding what you are trying to relay. I have come to the conclusion that a continued discourse with you would be a waste of time, but in your feeble mind this is somehow taken as evidence of the validity of your positions. It is not. Your arguments are consistently ill formed and your logic is consistently weak. You are so intellectually myopic as to not even be aware of your own ignorance, you must be in a state of total bliss. Your main function appears to be as a source of humor for those of us fortunate enough to be able to see it.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Evolving]
    #941840 - 10/08/02 06:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You have described yourself almost perfectly.

You have the intelligence of two men - Dumb and Dumber.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: zeronio]
    #942396 - 10/08/02 11:30 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

You trust this man?




I trust no politician completely. I do trust Bush much more than Gore or Clinton.

Should I ever see or hear of a politician that can be completely trusted, I'll let you know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/08/02 11:34 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Evolving]
    #942397 - 10/08/02 11:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

Alex, you are delusional. You prove nothing, you refuse to answer direct questions and you ignore any facts that may conflict with your pre-conceived notions. You consistently fall back on the old left-wing 'logic' that if a lie is repeated often enough it must be the truth. A discussion with you is like bantering with the town simpleton who is incapable of understanding what you are trying to relay. I have come to the conclusion that a continued discourse with you would be a waste of time, but in your feeble mind this is somehow taken as evidence of the validity of your positions. It is not. Your arguments are consistently ill formed and your logic is consistently weak. You are so intellectually myopic as to not even be aware of your own ignorance, you must be in a state of total bliss. Your main function appears to be as a source of humor for those of us fortunate enough to be able to see it.




The best description of Al yet.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #942399 - 10/08/02 11:32 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reply to:

You have the intelligence of two men - Dumb and Dumber.



Even if it were true it would still leave him twice as smart as you.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942400 - 10/08/02 11:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

LOL, yep, the man with the pierced nipple and "two inch dick and it spins" as a sig agrees with you evolving. I hope you're proud.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #942406 - 10/08/02 11:36 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

And either of those has what to do with anything? By the way, neither is part of my sig.

Your desperation to be funny and relevant leave you weak.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (10/08/02 11:36 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942409 - 10/08/02 11:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You work it out.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #942413 - 10/08/02 11:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The only thing it shows is how little imagination you have.

No surprise there.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942426 - 10/08/02 11:44 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No, it shows a lot more about you than that. Your childishness and crap sense of humour are just the first things that spring to mind.

Think about it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #942432 - 10/08/02 11:48 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Could you two kids take your cute little insults to OTD or PM eachother? Or even better...maybe have a debate without calling eachother names?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Rono]
    #942435 - 10/08/02 11:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Now what fun would that be? Besides... I've seen the same from you.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942440 - 10/08/02 11:51 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not going to get into this with you Luvdem...I'm just trying to get some maturity on this board.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Rono]
    #942446 - 10/08/02 11:53 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well said Rono. It's just that when you're dealing with excrement a little always sticks to the bottom of your shoes.

It's a lot better to just wipe it off and move on.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinepsilo25
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #942454 - 10/08/02 11:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This is pathetic. How many posts are in this thread that are actually on topic? 2 or three maybe?


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #942458 - 10/08/02 11:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If only were 1/2 as clever as you think you are you'd be almost interesting.

But for the sake of others, I'll call it quits with you for today as you're even less challenging than usual.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #942465 - 10/08/02 11:59 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

***sighs and shakes his head*** I'm having flashbacks from grade school again... Do we really need to get mods involved in the political forum? How sad...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #943726 - 10/08/02 07:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This is great - we are enjoying your demonstrations of the products of the US education system!


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #943795 - 10/08/02 08:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with Evolving!

NIETHER ARE TO BE TRUSTED, The same people that control the UN control the US GOVERMENT. They play it off like they appose us, but behind the curtains they are actually for us. But thats not to say the "us" because who does the us goverment represent? Certainly not the people of this country? Maybe the super rich (corperations, major power holders)?

Ken lay (of enron) was indicted guilty and he STILL has not gone to jail!!!!!! There only arresting the people far below him!!!!


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlineuno
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #948041 - 10/10/02 01:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Isn't Burger King a UK company?


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- uno


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: johnnyfive]
    #948059 - 10/10/02 02:19 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No Burger King is american based and had the audacity to try and sue an existing australian hamburger shop with the same name when they first entered the aussie market - they lost the court case and are called Hungry Jacks in Australia -same urchin diferent drag in the words of David Bowie
The UN is dominated by the USA with out a doubt - simply because the US is so open to using in economic might to achieve foreign policy objectives that further political agenda at the expense of the rest of the world.
The problem is that American politics and society is twisted wth hyprocacies like Southern Christian fundamentalism - as america has more practising christians than citizens in any other first world country - and the biggest porn industry. Personally i love porn, but i dont pretend to have a christian fundamental ethic like Jimmy Swaggett. Christians and porn are always a great mix.
Secondly it puts to death more of its own citizens every year, denies poor people justice by forcing them into plea bargaining deals - as 'its the only way to avoid jail' and has a police force with more rights than any other first world nation.
Whereas police in much of the first world are completely accountable, police in america can detain and use 'any force that THEY DEEM as necessary when apprehending' a felon - including arbitrary shootings.
A fucked up country like that should not be forcing its unrealistic world views upon the rest of the more progressed free world.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (10/10/02 02:21 AM)


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #953298 - 10/11/02 09:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

George W.Bush is the dumbest arsehole any country that i am aware of has ever elected

  I agree with you except on this sentence.  Please remember in the future that this man WAS NOT ELECTED to the office of president.  He was placed.  He lost the popular vote and if it hadn't been for a sham of an election in FL he would have also lost the electoral college vote. 
  Only about 100 million americans voted in that election.  Of that 100 million, 50,456,169 voted for Dubya.  50,996,116 voted for Gore.  Anyone know the population of the US according to the 2000 census??  Answer.  288,257,581.  So using simple arithmetic (with I doubt Dubya can do) I deduce that 17% (rounded evenly) of americans voted for Dubya.  Doesn't sound like we voted him in by majority at all.  These are facts provided by CNN.com here 
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/

So I proudly say
"President?  Not my President."

Edit here*  I have to amend that I do not disagree than dubya is a stupid asshole (I'm american, arse is for brits LOL).  Just the elected part.  Sorry for any misunderstanding.  :smile:
 


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


Edited by postalboy (10/11/02 09:10 PM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: postalboy]
    #956348 - 10/13/02 05:04 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

mmm democracy at its best??


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OfflineParadox
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #991921 - 10/25/02 05:55 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

http://english.pravda.ru/society/2002/03/01/26707.html

Back on topic, I'd have to agree with luvdemshrooms as to whether or not the UN should be trusted. Sexually exploiting minors in foreign countries doesn't seem to be entirely legitamite does it?


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Paradox]
    #995792 - 10/27/02 12:54 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The US is FREE.  AS free as it gets anywhere.  The poor even rob the rich and get to complain about doing it.  People choose to end up where they are in the US.  If you want to be Rich, you can!!!  You have to really want to work towards it.  The same thing goes for power and influence over our government.  If you want it, you can have it.

If you don't LIKE the US, you have ONLY it's CITIZENS to blame.  If you live in the US and dilslike it, YOU have only yourself to BLAME.  Cause you got the power to change it!!! :blush: 


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #995839 - 10/27/02 01:19 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

How ridiculous.

In the US freedom only applies to the ruling class.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: carbonhoots]
    #995868 - 10/27/02 01:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

capital = freedom

but anyone can get capital

anyone can become drafted into the ruling class, and once the globe has fallen under one fluid market, a greater order may come, OR, the ruling class will be in place by democratically earning the position through innovation/labor, or possibly long careful and great consideration

im voting republican. with hope.

controlling today for a better tomorrow


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Lallafa]
    #995892 - 10/27/02 01:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

>George W.Bush is the dumbest arsehole any country that i am aware of has ever elected

The guy went to Yale for Christ's sake. Just because he's not as book-smart as Woodrow Wilson doesn't mean he's outright stupid. If you call Bush stupid, you call America stupid*, as he is as close to an average American since Gerald Ford**.

*I know this sentence will be quoted or just taken advantage of and many of you will say that Americans are all indeed, stupid. In reply, I ask you this: as of late, which country has pioneered copmuter technology as it applies to everything from cars to military systems?

**Some of you will point out that Bush comes from a wealthy Texas family. To THIS, I reply: have you ever actually spent time with Bush? He is as average as anyone I know, talking about things you or I would and fitting into banquets so that you wouldn't even know he was there.


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: carbonhoots]
    #995968 - 10/27/02 01:28 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

People are the ruling class.  Each and every citizen has the power.  This is a democracy!!!  Someone sold you a line of shit.  There is no ruling class in America.  We have a constitutuion that protects the individual, and we have the power to vote out politicians who violate it.

We have the power to influence our politicians.  You just are to LAZY to use it.  You would rather complain about those who are not!!

Congress makes the laws. You elect your congress.  You elect them into power, and you elect them out of power.

In six years you could have a majority of the congress.  All you need is enough signatures stating that if a canidate doesn't vote your way in power, they will never be your canidate.  How much of the population in America do you think you would need to do that, VOTING population.  To guarentee that an official will lose there power, or never aquire it.  This doesn't require any money either.  You aren't buying there vote, you are forcing it by representing a significant portion of the voting population.  Look how close most Votes are, this really DOESN"t have to be a majority of the population.  You just have to be willing to USE YOUR VOTES to guarentee a single objective that is important to you.  Then you use this same power to go after your next objective.
6years and how many Signatures?  Don't assume you need a Majority of votes to influence the outcome of an election.  What is the vote differential in a close race?  Of course you would have to vote for both democrats and republicans, you couldn't pick sides, you would have to give you votes to whom ever needed them most!!!  This is the power you have to effect real change in this country. Other wise you are just a sheep, and are picking whatever side you THINK represents you closer, at least their PUBLIC IMAGE.  I can ssure you that all the laws that are being passed, alll the power expressed and obtained is via the method I just described.  SPECIAL interest laws, financial aid, etc...

Other wise, you have to spend money.  You donate enough to both canidates, so no matter who wins they are in a position to vote for your interests.  If they don't vote your way, they get no money when they go to run for office again.  This is what people who have wealth DO.

Citizens are the ruling class, apparently most just choose to be ruled, instead of ruling. :blush: 

You want to change America, you have to do it one Law at a time.  Be totally absolute in that single objective, and have a good number of fellow believers in each State wthin the Nation.  You need to approach the canidate who has a chance to win, but would like to Guarentee it.  the one that will benefit the most from your collective votes. 

How big of a list do you think that would require, how many signatures do you think you would need.  How many people within a city, county, state?

You could probably get Pot legalized in four years, just by registering voters, and obtaining signatures on every college campus within, every state, in the U.S.A.

But All these voters would have to be willing to vote as a single unit, for this single objective.  For a Republican, or a Democrat, which ever you could influence.  Might take and extra 2 years just to prove your strength(numbers) in the first election.  They have been able to take for granted your lack of motivation and organization for so long.
 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #996061 - 10/27/02 02:17 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

we have the power to vote out politicians who violate it.

What do you do if both your "candidates" are puppets of big buisness?

What do we do if we want to stop corporate welfare? First you would need to make people aware of the problem - How? Every media outlet will publish stories about the poor scrounging on welfare every day of the week - try and ask them to mention the idle rich pissing away our tax billions on 70% pay rises for themselves and their cronies and they would run a mile.



--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #996069 - 10/27/02 02:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You are right.

I feel really helpless and hopeless when it comes to politics and leadership of the world.


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #996075 - 10/27/02 02:24 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, my bad I didn't realize this thread had turned to more important and pressing issues like you and Alex flirting.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #996367 - 10/27/02 09:38 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Any flirting from luvdem is totally unrequited.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #996639 - 10/27/02 01:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If that's your idea of flirting I feel sorry for your "significant other".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #999479 - 10/28/02 10:46 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

All this talk of morons in the UN when surely the biggest freakin moron on the planet rules your crumbling country! hilarious if it wasnt so serious.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #999499 - 10/28/02 10:58 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

this coming from a person who lives in a country with a crumbling infrastructure....go figure

your country is in dire need of a makeover


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #999513 - 10/28/02 11:05 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Im from the UK but I think we are just as "free" over here as you poor sods over there in consumer heaven. I dont bother voting. When I tell people this they say I have no right to complain about the way my country is governed. So, i ask them why I am forced to pick a party with whom i am in agreement with around 10% of their total policy if that. What is the point in that? I would rather not vote in the hope that one day so many people also dont vote that a serious rethink of the democratic process is called for. One vote every 4 years and the right to email my local MP does not in my opinion constitute democracy. At least we can (apparently) hold a fair ballot over here i suppose but thats nothing to wirte home about either. We are living in the information age, party politics is a sham. We should be voting on a multitude of issues not just which party gets in. and the internet makes that more than possible. Obviously, the controlling elite dont want this to happen.

The thing about the american dream is, that eventually you are going to have to wajke up.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #999545 - 10/28/02 11:35 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You just merrily roll along without any facts to back up what you say dont you! I really dont want to get into a "my countrys better than yours" debate If you dont see that its just that sort of thinking that causes the most trouble in the world then i think you need a little help to wipe the sleepy dust from your eyes.

I know the UK have alot to answer for.

Wakey! wakey! your lost in the american dream.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #999574 - 10/28/02 11:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

One vote every 4 years and the right to email my local MP does not in my opinion constitute democracy.

Amen.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #999622 - 10/28/02 12:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

***You just merrily roll along without any facts to back up what you say dont you! ***

Actually i have 1st hand experience...we americans do travel ya know.

****really dont want to get into a "my countrys better than yours" debate If you dont see that its just that sort of thinking that causes the most trouble in the world then i think you need a little help to wipe the sleepy dust from your eyes.****

but it's ok for some dolt who thinks they have even a clue to comment on the crumbling of my country? The UK doesn't have the best track record to be commenting on other countries you know....therfore i will consider the source when you make hilarious comments.

****Wakey! wakey! your lost in the american dream. ****

are you still bitter about that war a couple hundred years ago? I can't blame you...look what you're left with...americas bitch..


--------------------

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #999663 - 10/28/02 12:22 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

on the crumbling of my country?

Your country? Well, that's one way of putting it i suppose.

More accurate would be to say it's the country you happen to have been born in. That's about it. What have you done to make your country any greater?

And btw, get caught taking drugs in "your" country and you'll be dragged into a van by "your" policeman and locked in "your" jailcell with "your" 300lb cellmate.


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #999711 - 10/28/02 12:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****Your country? Well, that's one way of putting it i suppose. ****

ya think?

****More accurate would be to say it's the country you happen to have been born in. *****

and a citizen of....

****That's about it. What have you done to make your country any greater?*****

since i'm in the automotive industry, quite a bit...(i do my part) what have you done besides complain?.....there are those in society that are pulling the wagon of prosperity while others are weighing it down...guess which one you are?

****And btw, get caught taking drugs in "your" country and you'll be dragged into a van by "your" policeman and locked in "your" jailcell with "your" 300lb cellmate. ****

you fail, not surprisingly, to point out that if you get caught in a majority of the countries on Earth with drugs you're going to jail....and i'd rather be in an american jail then a lot of those other countries.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000172 - 10/28/02 03:52 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

since i'm in the automotive industry, quite a bit

You help make cars? Hmm...not exactly Roosevelt is it.


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1000217 - 10/28/02 04:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I don't make cars you dolt...however i help those that do..people like me help the country grow.

****You help make cars? Hmm...not exactly Roosevelt is it. ****

oh i forgot who i was talking to for a sec....no i'm no Roosevelt...then again neither are most people. I'd say i contribute my share unlike you who do nothing but whine..

people like you serve the burgers we eat so i guess you contribute a bit


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000419 - 10/28/02 05:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"people like you serve the burgers we eat so i guess you contribute a bit"

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: 


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000534 - 10/28/02 06:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Al would be a bigger contributor if he WAS the burger.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1000556 - 10/28/02 06:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i would become one of those wacky vegans if that were the case....those would be some dumb looking burgers.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/28/02 07:52 PM)


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000609 - 10/28/02 06:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If a burger fell from a plane traveling over Afganistan while it was traveling at 15,000 feet, and it landed in a group of 600,000 dead babies, would anyone hear it fall?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1000668 - 10/28/02 07:06 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You mock their pain?  HA!

What we need are some definitive answers from Al, our very own "Burger King!"

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Cheers, 


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1000721 - 10/28/02 07:33 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Actually... no. Those who have been in this forum a bit longer than you will get the joke.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1000774 - 10/28/02 07:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if a burger flipper ie: alex were to fall from a plane from 15,000 feet onto a group of 600,000 iraqi's, would it still be americas fault?

Alex for iraqi ambassador...send him over before its too late :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1000828 - 10/28/02 08:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

would it still be americas fault? 



Well of course! EVERYTHING is Americas fault.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1001048 - 10/28/02 09:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

my point exactly :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1001965 - 10/29/02 01:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

no i'm no Roosevelt

So in reality you've done absolutely nothing for "your" country. It's like saying the house you were born in is "your house" when someone else paid for it and furnished it.

Sorry man but carworkers don't make as much as me these days. In fact I've got a funny feeling that if you put together your salary with luvdem's and mr mushrooms you still won't get close.

What does that do for your far right-wing philosophies guys?  Judging you on your own Bush inspired belief systems you are all complete failures  :grin:


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1002169 - 10/29/02 02:38 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

We don't have much less of a constitution anymore anyways.

Look at all of the drug testing that goes on in america.


Ya youll be looking at democracy differently, during say marshal law, in the future?? America's way of life will alot different under a dictatorship.


--------------------
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002401 - 10/29/02 04:48 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Umm u think im bitter about some war from 200 years ago? thats very funny. I dont give a damn about it. Nationalism kills as far as im concerned. What I do give a damn about is the horrendous way the native americans were treated by "mine" and your "nations".

Heres a few facts for you....the u.s spends more on its armed forces than the rest of the world put together.

the u.s military is the largest employer in the u.s

the u.s military has a budget of $348 billion

consumer debt in the u.s (mostly credit cards) almost doubled between june and july of 2002 to $1,713 billion ($1.7 trillion) and is increasing at $90 billion a month

on 13th august 2002 the u.s national debt stood at $ 6,161 billion and increases at $1billion a day.

the u.s annual trade deficit grew from $29.5 billion in 1991 to $ 450 billion in 2000 and is getting bigger.

the u.s owes the u.n $ 1 billion

So its blatantly obvious you need a war as its your biggest industry and at the same time you need to get your bloodstained hands on middle eastern oil to try and improve your economy. This is without even touching on the environmental nightmare that your country is inflicting merrily on the rest of the world. You work in the car industry? nothing to be proud of mate.

Im ashamed to say my country seems to be willing to let you get away with this. Thank god the french and the germans are willing to resist a little.

Id just like to point out that i have nothing against any individual from your country, the sum is alot more fucked up than the parts. Same applies all over.


--------------------
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1002473 - 10/29/02 05:45 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

In fact I've got a funny feeling that if you put together your salary with luvdem's and mr mushrooms you still won't get close.



That funny feeling is probably you pissing your pants if you knew just how much I make. I retired the first time at the age of 32. I do some work but it's only to keep from being bored.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1002485 - 10/29/02 06:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****So in reality you've done absolutely nothing for "your" country. ****

huh? Only if you're against the production of automobiles absolutly nothing.....dolt

****It's like saying the house you were born in is "your house" when someone else paid for it and furnished it. ****

nice analogy brain child....no nothing like that because what i do on my job contributes to the production of automobiles and the people who assemble them...unlike all your burger flipping...

****Sorry man but carworkers don't make as much as me these days.*****

burger flipping must have got better since i last remember it then....for the last time you dolt i don't make cars i'm in a managerial position (HRM)...god you are slow

****In fact I've got a funny feeling that if you put together your salary with luvdem's and mr mushrooms you still won't get close. ****

i'd love to compare salaries with you all day but to date you've never mentioned a thing you do and you are very foolish to think that you make more than someone you have no idea what they do...you sound like a little kid crying "my daddy makes more than yours" I call foul, mcdonalds doesn't pay near as high.....

****What does that do for your far right-wing philosophies guys? ****

nothing really...were you born this way? all slow and stuff......

****Judging you on your own Bush inspired belief systems you are all complete failures ****

coming from someone who says sooo much but says VERY little i'll take that as a complement...to date you've remained useless....


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002539 - 10/29/02 07:21 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****Umm u think im bitter about some war from 200 years ago? ****

not just you...many from your country are bitter

****What I do give a damn about is the horrendous way the native americans were treated by "mine" and your "nations".****

how did we all of a sudden switch to the native americans?

****the u.s spends more on its armed forces than the rest of the world put together*****

So what?...we also spend more on other countries aid than any other country...i don't see your point.

****the u.s military has a budget of $348 billion ****

I thought it was more...but again..so what?

****consumer debt in the u.s (mostly credit cards) almost doubled between june and july of 2002 to $1,713 billion ($1.7 trillion) and is increasing at $90 billion a month****

I have a zero balence on my credit cards..so i say again so what!?

****So its blatantly obvious you need a war as its your biggest industry and at the same time you need to get your bloodstained hands on middle eastern oil to try and improve your economy. ****

where in the hell did you come up with that analogy? Your funny, first to say we have a poor economy is just you rattling off soundbites. Don't equate the stock market with our economy, they're not the same. BTW how's that Euro treating you?

****This is without even touching on the environmental nightmare that your country is inflicting merrily on the rest of the world. *****

oh great, we have ourselves here a Kyoto treaty supportor.....ask yourself WHY you limeys never signed the treaty.

****You work in the car industry? nothing to be proud of mate.****

I'm quite proud to be where i'm at. What do you do?...or is that a secret?

****Im ashamed to say my country seems to be willing to let you get away with this. ****

and if you decided to NOT let us get away with whatever you feel we're getting away with, what would you do?...what could you do?

****Thank god the french and the germans are willing to resist a little. *****

kind of like the last two world wars? Europeans have have killed more people than us americans have....or have you forgot?

****the sum is alot more fucked up than the parts****

no offense but if there's any country that shouldn't throw stones it's Britain.




--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002643 - 10/29/02 09:34 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"huh? Only if you're against the production of automobiles absolutly nothing.....dolt"

producing cars that use far more fuel than they need to, just to sell more oil. spreading poison like the little cancer cells that you are.

"not just you...many from your country are bitter"

then they are just as deluded as you and are not helping humanity to evolve and move forward lightly instead of clinging to and glorifying a sordid past (on both sides)

Let me just reply to all your intelligent "So what?" arguments applied to the gross overspending on military your country indulges in. Not just your country obviously but you are an extreme example of it. In my opinion, it is money wasted. You sell arms to countries, then provoke wars to showcase your wares. You can argue this point if you like but please do some research first. This is how the arms trade works and it is a sick business.

"where in the hell did you come up with that analogy? Your funny, first to say we have a poor economy is just you rattling off soundbites. Don't equate the stock market with our economy, they're not the same. BTW how's that Euro treating you?
"

I take it you realise we dont actually use the Euro in the UK? Well, I was talking about the need for a war which stimulates the biggest industry in your country and will therefore stimulate economically a country that is slipping further and further into debt. Sadly you seem to be unable to connect several ideas together.

"oh great, we have ourselves here a Kyoto treaty supportor.....ask yourself WHY you limeys never signed the treaty."

Oh great we have some egotistical fool who thinks the environment is a joke and as long as uncle sam is filling his pockets then to the hell with rest of the world. I know us "limeys" should have signed - we are just as bad as you for nor signing. But i dont attach myself to my countries actions and therefore dont feel the need to defend or accept what they do. That is where we differ.

"I'm quite proud to be where i'm at. What do you do?...or is that a secret?"

IT support before returning to university.

"and if you decided to NOT let us get away with whatever you feel we're getting away with, what would you do?...what could you do?"

Sickening arrogance. What would you do if we didnt back you all the way and the whole of europe opposed you. Bomb iraq and bomb europe? get a grip you moron. We live on a planet and pursuing american interests above all others is not going to be good for the planet in the long run.

"kind of like the last two world wars? Europeans have have killed more people than us americans have....or have you forgot?"

But you are the only sick bastards who have used Nuclear weapons. After luring japan into attacking you as well. And the sham of vietnam, how many innocents did you kill then?

"no offense but if there's any country that shouldn't throw stones it's Britain."

1..2..3.. I dont align myself with my country, im hoping thats the way we are evolving,all working for the greater good. so while the stars and stripes is burning on the fire, i'll throw the union jack on too cos thats the best place for them both.



--------------------
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002672 - 10/29/02 10:04 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****spreading poison like the little cancer cells that you are****

ha ha..that's a good analogy.....to bad your opinion means nothing to me.

****then they are just as deluded as you and are not helping humanity to evolve and move forward lightly instead of clinging to and glorifying a sordid past ****

how is Britain helping humanity evolve? I'd like to hear this one...besides following us mind you.

***In my opinion, it is money wasted. ****

what do you care?...you're not living here...are you just mad that we aren't giving your country money?

****You sell arms to countries, then provoke wars to showcase your wares. You can argue this point if you like but please do some research first. This is how the arms trade works and it is a sick business.****

I know you can't accept this but britain, russia, the US, and other countries sell arms...but i guess you knew that huh?

****I take it you realise we dont actually use the Euro in the UK? ****

i know...but you will in the future ...

****Oh great we have some egotistical fool who thinks the environment is a joke *****

joke? sorta like the treaty you didn't sign.....i must have hit the nail on the head..truth hurts you libbies.

****Sickening arrogance. ****

shockingly true.....reality bites doesn't it? britain invented arrogance.

****What would you do if we didnt back you all the way and the whole of europe opposed you. *****

pretty much the same as we're doing know..we never have europes support, so what?

****Bomb iraq and bomb europe? get a grip you moron. ****

when did i say bomb europe or iraq? moron? ha ha..that's a good one

****We live on a planet and pursuing american interests above all others is not going to be good for the planet in the long run.
****

and following britain will be better?  remember the last time you try to rule the world?...how many civilizations were destroyed because of your arrogance?

****But you are the only sick bastards who have used Nuclear weapons. *****

that's right..memories...i love to remember them sorts of things. 

****After luring japan into attacking you as well****

ha ha ha...yeah that's right........

****And the sham of vietnam, how many innocents did you kill then?****

you mean the ones with the bombs strapped to them or without?

****I dont align myself with my country, im hoping thats the way we are evolving,all working for the greater good****

there are certain thing my country does that i don't agree with ie: liberal direction.  Does greater good mean agreeing with your utopian philosophy?

****so while the stars and stripes is burning on the fire, i'll throw the union jack on too cos thats the best place for them both.
****

feel free to hate your country i love mine at the same time not agreeing with everything.  throw on another couple flags of whatever country you choose...i'll sit here in my heated office creating the devastation you call the automobile.  :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002704 - 10/29/02 10:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"how is Britain helping humanity evolve? I'd like to hear this one...besides following us mind you."

Like taking to a red and white striped brick wall. I wont be drawn on some USA vs UK bollox becuase it is meaningless to me! humanity evolves by moving on from the behaviour you are displaying.

"what do you care?...you're not living here...are you just mad that we aren't giving your country money?"

I hope you are trying to annoy me and arent actually this stupid.

"I know you can't accept this but britain, russia, the US, and other countries sell arms...but i guess you knew that huh?"

I refer you to my last answer.

"joke? sorta like the treaty you didn't sign.....i must have hit the nail on the head..truth hurts you libbies."

Yawn...your answers are so predictable. Read what i said. I know the UK should sign the treaty. We should do it out of a genuine desire to improve the environment regardless whether it fits in with our fiscal policy. Fact still remains you create more pollution per capita than any of the other developed nations.

"shockingly true.....reality bites doesn't it? britain invented arrogance."

Sadly we also invented america. we all have our karmic debts to bear though.

The rest of what you say is so tedious im not even going to bother replying. You do realise this is a forum for intelligent people who use magic mushrooms and not the Brain Dead Budweiser Drinkers Club right?  :grin:

PEACE (look it up in the dictionary) 


--------------------
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Edited by GazzBut (10/29/02 10:33 AM)


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002768 - 10/29/02 11:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****Like taking to a red and white striped brick wall. I wont be drawn on some USA vs UK bollox becuase it is meaningless to me! ****

Typical European, you tell us we need to further the evolution of man, however you do nothing to push your existance into that direction other than saying WE need to change.  it sounds like you guys don't want to be the leader of anything.

****I hope you are trying to annoy me and arent actually this stupid.****

great dodge...now answer the question: why do you care what WE spend?

****I refer you to my last answer.****

great dodge....you do know other countries sell arms..don't you?

****We should do it out of a genuine desire to improve the environment regardless whether it fits in with our fiscal policy. ****

an economist you are not.  but that's besides the point.  Maybe if other countries take the lead we may follow...Kyoto was just BS..

***Sadly we also invented america. we all have our karmic debts to bear though.****

actually you didn't create america....your arrogance did.

****The rest of what you say is so tedious im not even going to bother replying. ****

shocking :shocked:...and you've said soo much up to this point

****You do realise this is a forum for intelligent people who use magic mushrooms and not the Brain Dead Budweiser Drinkers Club right? *****

oh that's funny....brain dead? wow more english humor surprisingly not funny.  whenever you want to express something that is not strait off the libby script, please feel free to respond (which is something you refuse to do).....

****PEACE (look it up in the dictionary) ****

REALITY (look it up in the dictionary)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002816 - 10/29/02 11:40 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Just a little analogy to describe why we may never agree. You know when you are a child, you believe in Santa Claus? There comes a time when maybe a friend or an older relative tells you the truth. But you don't want to hear it and you resist and denounce them (Im sorry if you still thought Santa was real I truly am). Well to me your beliefs that you have put forward so far, and i use the word "your" in its loosest sense because you havent expressed an idea that is even close to original in this thread, are like a belief in Santa Claus. Something you will grow out of.

PEACE


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002820 - 10/29/02 11:40 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i'd love to compare salaries with you all day

Really? The last I heard sucking farts out of seats at the used car lot wasn't too lucrative. Maybe you suck well.  :grin:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1002821 - 10/29/02 11:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I retired the first time at the age of 32

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002855 - 10/29/02 11:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****(Im sorry if you still thought Santa was real I truly am). ****

he's not real?..how do you explain all them presents i get? :smirk:

***Well to me your beliefs that you have put forward so far, and i use the word "your" in its loosest sense because you havent expressed an idea that is even close to original in this thread****

excuse me?  Your dimwitted responses (and i use response loosly because you avoid any area where you actually have to express yourself logically).  Yet again typical European have all the answers but can't come up with any that work...it must suck to never take a stand..hmm

i'm quite happy being who i am and your underestimation of me is humorous to say the least...


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1002869 - 10/29/02 11:56 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****The last I heard sucking farts out of seats at the used car lot wasn't too lucrative. Maybe you suck well.  ****

man..you showed me.....go clean out a fry vat and get me a burger..... :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1002872 - 10/29/02 11:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I guess the difference is you really do suck farts  :grin:


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Offlineakjakj
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1002896 - 10/29/02 12:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Just a little analogy to describe why we may never agree. You know when you are a child, you believe in Santa Claus?

That said it all Gazz. I'm tired of the Bush-worshippers on the board. It's because of these assholes drugs are illegal.

Why don't luvdemshrooms, Mr Mushrooms and innervertigo all write a letter to Bush telling him how much they adore him. At the end they could mention that they all take schedule 1 mushrooms. See what the reaction is. At least that will get them our of our hair for a few years.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: akjakj]
    #1002938 - 10/29/02 12:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****That said it all Gazz. I'm tired of the Bush-worshippers on the board. ****

#1 no-name i don't endorse everything that Bush does. and when was that even in the discussion? If i like this country then i'm a Bush supporter?

****Why don't luvdemshrooms, Mr Mushrooms and innervertigo all write a letter to Bush telling him how much they adore him****

i'm sensing a puppet evolving...hmmmmm

****At the end they could mention that they all take schedule 1 mushrooms. See what the reaction is.****

now you're just talking out of your ass....no surprise


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/29/02 12:41 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1002964 - 10/29/02 12:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

***I guess the difference is you really do suck farts ***

oh...ya got me again..ouch


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005147 - 10/30/02 03:59 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Teonan and the Bush supporters are gravely mistaken. Bush's entire administration is awash with ex-oil executives, and the US$23 million funding from Exxon Mobil helped elect Bush in the first place.
To think that the US political system in anyway resembles true democracy is to profoundly ignorant of politics - the vote counting in your recent presidential election demonstrates just how much better the English/Australian/etc Westminster political system actually is. We have rules in this country that enable a person from any walk of life to become a representative of their electrorate - and we dont have to win financially depended party 'primaries' inorder to get endorsement for a presidential campaign - which requires huge amounts of financial support to maintain - requiring the candidate to arse-lick every corporate agenda they can find for the $$.

America is the land of the free?
USA holds the highest amount of its own citizens in custody of any nation, one quarter of the global amount of people incarcerated are behind bars in USA. Minus ofcourse the 152 inmates executed in Texas while George W.Bush was governor - a state that does not provide any financial legal aid to the poor.
America fosters unbridled competition, the the benefit of all?
four companies now own 87% of the american beef industry, 84% of cereal, and two US companies own 79% of the grain industry.
Happiness is honoured?
According to prozac manufacturer, America has the highest amount of citizens of any world nation requiring medication for clinical depression.
America promotes the global expansion of human rights?
America refused to sign almost all UN treaties regarding human rights - as well as not ratifying the Kyoto treaty, they did not ratify treaties on war crimes, biochemical weapons, the prohibition of the execution of juveniles, arms controls, and even the convention on the rights of the child. (alone with Somalia).
US citizens although only 5% of world population, use 35% of the planets resources, produce more global-warming emissions per person, consumes a quarter of the world's oil, a third of its paper, 40% of beef and veal.
Iraq and its invasion us purely an attempt by bush and his oil-hungary barons - to secure a cheaper alternative to Saudi price increases...
God bless AmeriKKKa :smile:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005250 - 10/30/02 06:19 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Im having such fun talking to you and learning so much about myself!

"excuse me? Your dimwitted responses (and i use response loosly because you avoid any area where you actually have to express yourself logically). Yet again typical European have all the answers but can't come up with any that work...it must suck to never take a stand..hmm"

This is rich coming from you. If you take the time to read what has been said you will see that you havent actually said anything beyond one line denounciations of anything I have said and cheap put downs. - If you want to debate me on some of the answers I have given i am more than happy to do so but please stop all this petty name calling(i.e libbie,limey etc etc) and my pay cheque is bigger than yours crap. Unless of course this is how you derive your pleasure in life. If so, fair enuff.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1005266 - 10/30/02 07:04 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****If you want to debate me on some of the answers I have given *****

you've given answers?..where?

****stop all this petty name calling(i.e libbie,limey etc etc) ****

sorry but limey is similar to people calling us yanks...and libbie is my trademark expression for liberals (because you're all wacky) so you'll just have to deal with it...

****and my pay cheque is bigger than yours crap****

that was alex, limey

****Unless of course this is how you derive your pleasure in life. If so, fair enuff.*****

wow...you nailed it


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005336 - 10/30/02 08:38 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What a waste of bandwidth you truly are. I would like to hear you counter the excellent points made by BlueMeanie in his last post. Try not sinking to your normal level and actually string a few coherent sentences together that actually contain information rather than the incessant ego drone which is all you have generated so far.

PEACE


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1005347 - 10/30/02 08:47 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****What a waste of bandwidth you truly are****

Then why are you still replying to me?  Do you need attention that bad?

****I would like to hear you counter the excellent points made by BlueMeanie in his last post. ****

i just might...seeing that you had no excellent points in your posts..

****Try not sinking to your normal level and actually string a few coherent sentences together that actually contain information rather than the incessant ego drone which is all you have generated so far.****

do you actually think i give a shit what you think?  A) you have no beliefs B) you're afraid to make a stand on anything and C) it's too much fun seeing you get frustrated.....silly libbie :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005375 - 10/30/02 09:13 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Your so right.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1005419 - 10/30/02 09:58 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

***Bush's entire administration is awash with ex-oil executives, and the US$23 million funding from Exxon Mobil helped elect Bush in the first place. ****

would you say that the hollywood left are just as evil as the oil exects? if not why?

****To think that the US political system in anyway resembles true democracy is to profoundly ignorant of politics ****

I can't argue with that

****the vote counting in your recent presidential election demonstrates just how much better the English/Australian/etc Westminster political system actually is.****

are you discussing the Florida mishap or the electoral college? I like the electoral college because it forces the candidate to get out of the cities and reach people that are considered "flyovers".

as for better that is just an opinion and can be debated i guess..

****We have rules in this country that enable a person from any walk of life to become a representative of their electrorate ****

as do we..it's just that there are so many people out there that think they have a right to be heard...NOONE has that right. They have a right to speak but NOT to be heard.

****and we dont have to win financially depended party 'primaries' inorder to get endorsement for a presidential campaign ****

So? i'm not seeing as where this even matters.

****which requires huge amounts of financial support to maintain - requiring the candidate to arse-lick every corporate agenda they can find for the $$. ****

i agree that there should be less financial dependence when it comes to elections but it's what the market bears...if you want an ad then you HAVE to pay..no free rides i say. Bloomberg spent millions and barely got elected (relativly speaking)..just because someone has money does not make them A) evil nor B) to be mistrusted...it's got a lot to do with beinf a capitalist society.

****USA holds the highest amount of its own citizens in custody of any nation, one quarter of the global amount of people incarcerated are behind bars in USA****

if you ask me we need to lock up a few more for crimes that require it. Now you will get no argument from me when it comes to the war on drugs. I believe those that got busted for doing pot should be set free.

****Minus ofcourse the 152 inmates executed in Texas while George W.Bush was governor - a state that does not provide any financial legal aid to the poor.****

this is wrong. Every state offers legal aid to it's financially challenged citizins ie: Meranda!!

****four companies now own 87% of the american beef industry, 84% of cereal, and two US companies own 79% of the grain industry.****

i don't have a problem if these companies own as much as they do. Do they violate the anti-trust rules? if not then i don't see your point.

****According to prozac manufacturer, America has the highest amount of citizens of any world nation requiring medication for clinical depression.****

I agree that this dependence on prozac is plain stupid. I see it as a society that cannot handle failure ie: the libbie philosophy that everything is right and protect everyone's self-esteem

****America refused to sign almost all UN treaties regarding human rights - as well as not ratifying the Kyoto treaty, they did not ratify treaties on war crimes, biochemical weapons, the prohibition of the execution of juveniles, arms controls, and even the convention on the rights of the child. (alone with Somalia).****

as for Kyoto - it just plain sucked and only a couple countries signed it...australia, Britain, the US, etc. never signed it...why?
treaties on war crimes? what treaty are you talking about? (what did it contain?)
biochemical weapons? What about them? what don't you like about them (serious question)
the prohibition of juviniles? I'm 100% in favor of the death penalty..if a juvinile kills someone in cold blood i say fry 'em...
arms controls? like what?
I'm not familiar with the convention on the rights of the child. with this said what is it that we do that violates a childs rights?

****US citizens although only 5% of world population, use 35% of the planets resources****
****consumes a quarter of the world's oil, a third of its paper, 40% of beef and veal.****

we also produce more than any other country and export...we're the third largest country in both population and area..relativly speaking if we were the size of germany that would be greatly reduced...

***produce more global-warming emissions per person***

global warming is a unproven theory..the oceans produce more greenhouse gasses that all the humans combined...CO2



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1005501 - 10/30/02 10:34 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The oceans, just like the lands, have a balance of respiration and photosynthesis. In the warmer parts CO2 is released from the water, in the colder parts it's absorbed. Same thing happens with O2. If the oceans, originally part of a balanced system, are releasing enough CO2 to cause the increase (10 percent in the last forty years), it's probably because we've eaten all the fish and killed all the reefs.


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: akjakj]
    #1005543 - 10/30/02 10:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Why don't luvdemshrooms, Mr Mushrooms and innervertigo all write a letter to Bush telling him how much they adore him. At the end they could mention that they all take schedule 1 mushrooms. See what the reaction is. At least that will get them our of our hair for a few years.

Son, you need to get your facts straight.

1.  Please point out where I EVER said I adore President Bush.

2.  Please point out where I ever said I ingested illegal mushrooms.

I have done more for the decriminalization than you will ever do.  I adore freedom, don't you?

1.  You have me confused with someone else.

2.  You are an idiots puppet.

I'll see what I can do to get you banned.

Now crawl back under the rock you came from, Al..  er I mean, akjakj.

:smirk: 


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1005617 - 10/30/02 11:27 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****Al.. er I mean, akjakj****

I was thinking the same thing :grin:


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1005626 - 10/30/02 11:30 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****If the oceans, originally part of a balanced system, are releasing enough CO2 to cause the increase (10 percent in the last forty years), ****

10%? that's extremely low..i'm not questioning your source but where did you get 10% from?

****it's probably because we've eaten all the fish and killed all the reefs. ****

that's a pretty bold statement. I disagree however greatly.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Xlea321]
    #1008703 - 10/31/02 02:36 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You aren't paying attention to what I said.

It doesn't matter how much money a corporation is able to indirectly funnel to a politician. Votes get them elected. You have to threaten the one who has the best chance of winning with your ACCUMULATED VOTING POWER.

If your canidate doesn't vote your way, they don't get elected. Votes are more powerful then MONEY. Money can only be used to aquire more votes through exposure. The most terrifying thing to a politician is being assured that X amount of votes will go against them, and cause them to lose an election, if they don't go your way on the issue. Voting pressure is direct, and legal. Money acts indirectly, or it is ILLEGAL.

How many registered voters agree with your position on any specific law? How many are willing to vote entirely on that position?

You keep talking about corporate welfare. How many people out there at large that vote, are on your side of the issue? What specific congressman run that specific part of congress? Who is against your position and who is for it? How many of them are against it? Who many of those are running in a close campaign race? How many were last time that are up for reelection?

You can't convince someone who is guarenteed a win, no matter how you vote. Like voting in a state that is predominantly one party or the other. You apply pressure only where it counts the most, and can hurt them the most.

Look at the situation of congress right now. Imagine how important certain elections are for the republicans and the democrats. A few elections going the other way could really cause problems for each party. This gives the VOTERS extreme power. All you have to do is Organize, and execute your power of influence.

No one living legally in the USA is without influence. Most just choose to Complain about the problems versus trying to actually change them. You seem to actually submit to just complaining about what disturbs you instead of motivating and influencing a change.

May I suggest a great book on the influence of VOTING POWER and Lobbying.

They Dare To Speak Out, by Paul Findley
This book will sum up the United States Stance on Israel and Palestine by showing you EXACTLY who is doing the influencing, and how. I would say this is the greatest book I have ever read on the American system of politics. What the Israeli lobby has done, can be done by any Special interest group that represents a mildly significant part of the voting population.

It is a Map for Lobbying the United States government and getting your way.

You act like politicians aren't real people. Do you imagine they don't own business's? They don't have money invested in business? Don't have their own special interests, or own group of like minded individuals working towards a common goal.

The way you make it seem, less then one percent of the population has more power then the remainder of society. You imagine this in a democratic society, that has a constitution?

What you fail to realize is that majority of the population gets their employment through these corporations, invests their personal savings in these companies. That majority is the one voting against you. The country is almost divided down the center republican/democrat. This gives Groups of voters EXTREME POWER. You just need to figure out how to organize it and use it. Look how much power the NADER group had, they just used it the wrong way. In the end, they caused the defeat of the party who closer represented their beliefs. In stead of using that power to vote third party, they could have influenced the direction the party they chose to help get elected, versus having absolutely no power within the party they indirectly helped get elected.

Excessive salaries are approved by the major stockholders of a company. They are approved by the owners of the company. Imagine someone telling you, you can only have this percentage of the income of a company, that you built and run, and probably own.

To complain about the entire system because a few Criminals, commited fraud at the expense of their companies stockholders and employees, is rediculous.

Imagine if you represented 20percent of the voting population in the majority of voting districts. If you can show that this twenty percent will be guarenteed to vote for or against a canidate depending on how they deal with your particular interests, you have more power then any monetary donation. It costs money to campain for votes, it takes votes to get elected. Money just allows you to seak votes, that aren't guarenteed.

If you are a politician, and a large group of people come up to you and say, we will all vote for you and keep voting for you if you support our position, what will you do.

You will compare the cost of losing money to aquire X amount of possible votes, versus LOSSING Y amount of votes if you go against the will of those voters.

X has to be significantly higher then Y to allow that politician to say @#$$ off.

Florida presidential election, that decided the outcome of the election, was by a margin of 537 votes. Nader got 97,000 votes. Think of the power those 97, 000 people had, and squandered on voting for NADER.

How many races are tight for Congressional positions? Some states are so one sided that you can't influence them. Alot are not. Power is there for the influencing. Are you gonna play, or are you gonna sit on the sidelines and BITCH and MOAN when your team losses?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1008967 - 10/31/02 04:14 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

sounds like a good book. I still think in this day and age we need to vote on more issues rather than trying to persuade one politician to see our point of view. It is too slow and cumbersome a system. I cant speak about the US system as I dont have much knowledge of it but the UK parliament is basically archaic and hasnt changed much in its methods in the last hundred years.


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Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (10/31/02 04:30 AM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1009089 - 10/31/02 05:35 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Invertigo - democracy as theory is a state where every governmentary decision is made by all its citizens by referendum. To think that this occurs in America is demonstrating supreme ignorance.
Invertigo is wrong on many key points - Industrial America is directly responsible for one quarter of the world's green house gases (20 tonnes per year). The Intergovernmental Panel on CLimate Change reported that in the 1990s were the hottest years/decade on record - 1998 being the hottest year globally and 2001 being the second hottest on record. The Bush administration is response was that 'we can expect large-scale future and possibly irreversible changes to Earth's environmental systems.'
And the worst state for clogging the air with toxic fumes is good ole' texas - top for carbon dioxide, mercury, and top for clear-water violations, in the US - and the worst polluters are the corps that bankroled Bush's presidentary campaign - Enron, Exxon-Mobil, Shell, Amoco and Alcoa Aluminum
Again Teonan your making teh basic assumption that voter apathy does no exist in america and that the ballot is not already influenced. All the candidates have had to arselick every corporate agenda, promote corporate welfare in order to receive the funding to run a governmental or presidencial campaign. Only those who receive this funding and are ofcourse completely biased to corporate agenda are able to contend for government. The choice is already redundant.
Politics itself is all about firstly perceiving a societal problem - real or imagined - and making it an issue that requires a response - the only issues that are raised are those that the candidate feels they can effectively respond to - so voters vote for the lesser of evils - the guy who will lower their taxes, while at the same time doom them to pollutants, protect the rich, destroy social welfare and send to holywar oblivion.
And ill post about texan law system next


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1009137 - 10/31/02 06:00 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Profoundly ignorant of politics?

The USA is a democracy, but we have a constitution.  It is the constitution that makes it an impure democracy, not special interest financing of politicians.  Corporations are owned by citizens, and it is THOSE citizens VOICE that is being heard when they donate money to help elect an official.

We are a free society.  Every aspect of America is privately owned.  So of course, the money to enable politicians to be elected will come from the people. Some in the form of individual contribution, and some in the form of PAC contributions.  These doesn't make the system non democratic.  The people vote in the canidates.  All the money in the world can't win you an election, if your views are not supported by the majority of voters.

We rely on the PARTICIPATION of people in the ELECTION and LOBBY process.  If people don't participate in the latter, they are missing out on the POLITICS of AMERICA.

Corporations are PEOPLE!!!!  This is AMERICA, not CHINA. The state doesn't own them, private citizens do. 

A pure democracy is worthless, that is MOB RULES.  Without the constitution this country would not be succesful.  It certainly wouldn't be as DIVERSE as it is.  This is an immigrant nation.  Emphasis on IMMIGRATION.  We choose to leave your systems of politics, to live under this one.  We did so for our own self interests.

You can agree or disagree with whatever you find offensive about our government(people).  We don't really care!!!  We are not gonna stop looking out for our own best interests to appease you.

If you want to effect change in US policy, you have to be a citizen, and take advantage of your freedoms. 

The military/industrial/polluting complex guarentees my FREEDOM.  The last thing in the world I want to do, is try and limit theirs, becuase I have some Idealogical notion that the world can be peaceful.  IT NEVER HAS BEEN, NEVER!!!

You actually want me to pretend that Iraq has complied with DISARMARMENT.  You want me to pretend that Russia, China, France, Germany, etc... have my best interests in mind.  You must be smoking some good shit over their in OZ. 

You actually want me to believe that the citizens of IRAQ want to continue under the rule of Saddam?  Those that live here in the US and have relatives in Iraq still, seem to have a FAR different opinion then YOU. 

Are you telling me that you live ina Home that uses no Energy.  You walk everywhere.  You only consume food that was grown in your own garden, without pesticides, or fertilizer.  You consume only meat, that you raised personally, and you were able to do it without disturbing the environment at all.  You consume no goods produced in the USA, no MOVIES, no MUSIC, no food, no medicines, nothing?  Everything you participate in has absolutely no connection to the USA. :confused: 


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1009172 - 10/31/02 06:28 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I never stated there wasn't voter apathy. That is the problem. But you have to understand that people choose canidates through active participation in politics. The last thing you want to do is wait for the actual general election day to voice your opinion.

I am stating that YOU are free to get involved in this country. You are not under a ruling class, unless you choose not to participate. The lesser of two evils theory relates only to those who choose not to be involved other then election day. That is there CHOICE. It is still freedom.

You really haven't been paying attention to my posts!!!

I know All laws and agendas are worked out prior to the vote. Prior to elections, and prior to individual votes within the legislature. Any individual in the Country can influence the agenda prior to the vote. It just takes time , effort and money. If you have no money, it takes alot more PLANNING. In the end voters elect canidates to there party, and they elect the canidates to office. You are just trying to convince yourself that Corporations aren't people. They are. All these EVIL companies that sponsor the EVIL administration are AMERICAN CITIZENS, using their freedom to effect GOVERNMENT policy. That is a nation of the people and for the people.
THIS is FREEDOM.
If you are representing an agenda that is counter to the majority opinion, you have to be BETTER organized, and have GREAT TIMING. You can have your agenda respected.

I assure you I understand the process very well!!!

I just refuse to allow anyone to blame the USA for all the worlds problems. The entire world has been more then willing to dish up the resources to fuel our MACHINE.

Your posts make it seem like the AVERAGE AMERICAN is powerless, and I assure you the average AMERICAN has more power then YOU. With that power comes responsibility, of course. But you can't hold us any more accountable then the rest of the NATIONS in the world.





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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1009257 - 10/31/02 06:58 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You don't lobby one politician you lobby all of them. You pay particular attention to the ones who will be most hurt by your group voting against them.

The only succesful lobby is non partisan. It gives it's support to any canidate that will support it's cause.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1009315 - 10/31/02 07:18 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****Invertigo - democracy as theory is a state where every governmentary decision is made by all its citizens by referendum. ****

no democracy is mob rule...

****Invertigo is wrong on many key points - Industrial America is directly responsible for one quarter of the world's green house gases ****

sorry but the oceans are responsible for a majority of greenhouse gas (co2)...it's too convieniant to blame in on america..and predictable.

****The Bush administration is response was that 'we can expect large-scale future and possibly irreversible changes to Earth's environmental systems.'****

what? when did he say this?

****1990s were the hottest years/decade on record - 1998 being the hottest year globally and 2001 being the second hottest on record.****

how come the average temperature since recorded went down then?

I suggest you look into a video called "the greening of planet earth" or do a search on it if you want. It's pretty interesting how these scientists go against the mainstream (bought and paid for) scientists that are crying that the sky is falling.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1009389 - 10/31/02 07:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"...i'm not questioning your source but where did you get 10% from?"
From my source that you're not questioning.  :grin:

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/service/gallery/fact_sheets/earthsci/green.htm

"Atmospheric CO2 has increased about 25 percent since the early 1800s. Climatologists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., estimate the increase since 1958 has been about 10 percent. Currently, the level of atmospheric C 2 is increasing at a rate of about 0.4 percent a year."

This one shows it at about 12 percent:
http://www.cnie.org/pop/CO2/impacts.htm#Figure%203

"that's a pretty bold statement. I disagree however greatly."

It's easy to disagree with an obvious exaggeration.  Put it this way: the earth's ecosystems have evolved into a balance.  Certain parts of the program took the carbon out of CO2 and made fruit with it, and let out the O2.  Other parts took the O2 in and stuck a C back onto it after eating the fruit, and let that out.  For a while there was also a management component, but it got wiped out through evolution.  Unnecessary. 

For millions of years, the system developed into something pretty well-balanced.  Considering the steady increases in the past century, I just don't see how anyone can deny that human activity from the industrial revolution to present is a part of the increase.  And yes, that includes disruption to the ocean's eco-system. 


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1009403 - 10/31/02 08:04 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i meant the validity of your source...sorry


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1009416 - 10/31/02 08:11 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think you misunderstood my comments... I said that the oceans supply most of the CO2 in our atmosphere...your quote mentions that humans have contributed 10 percent

INCREASES IN ATMOSPHERIC (CO2)
Human Activities Add to Atmospheric (CO2)
Atmospheric CO2 has increased about 25 percent since the early 1 800s. Climatologists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., estimate the increase since 1958 has been about 10 percent. Currently, the level of atmospheric C 2 is increasing at a rate of about 0.4 percent a year.b]

i'd comment on the rest of your post but i want to make sure your sticking with this number (due to mine..or your confusion.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1010975 - 10/31/02 07:31 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

No one is doubting that the POPULATION of the world has an effect on EARTH.

I rarely hear an environmentalist complaining about overpopulation in STARVING, third world countries. I just hear about the evil Machine that makes sure we don't starve in the USA. This country runs on OIL, oil is a business. You are expecting the citizens of this country to impose laws against the OIL industry that will put them out of business. You are expecting the citizens who run these industries to INVEST in technologies that they DON'T need.

What you seem to never focus on, is the INDIVIDUALS that CONSUME the GOODS, OIL, Cows, CROPS, and TIMBER. The individuals that drive the cars, live in homes, eat exotic foods, play video games, use computers, etc....... Your system of thought does not include the people in it's solution. You don't include the people in the problem. Corporations can only make money selling things that people will buy!!!

Show me a society that is succesful, that does not damage the environment!!! One that lacks crime, economic classes, and relies on ZERO industry or military.

Do you ask a Doctor to build you a Car. Do you expect garbage man to spend their hard earned money to develope a system that will eliminate their JOBS. But you seem to think it is ok to BLAME OIL companies and INDUSTRY for doing their jobs. You expect them to develope the technology that will change their own occupations.

You want Agriculturalist to create super crops to feed the world, but you want to limit them to ARCHAIC methods of producing these crops. No pesticides, no Genetic engineering. You also expect the developed succesful countries to give these products to underdeveloped countries, for FREE.

You want to rob the rich and give to the poor. You refuse to except that people can be poor, through their own fault. That people can be starving through their own fault.

If you have no money, no land, no food, no healthcare, WOULD YOU HAVE CHILDREN? Would you then blame those who have all these things, and don't have kids?


You want to handcuff and ankle cuff industries, and then expect them to run , come through with the solutions to your problems.


Tell me something that makes sense, and maybe I will change my mind.

The ecosystem that is EARTH is far more complex then you or I can ever imagine. It includes people. It includes industry. It includes everything you think is the problem and everything you haven't come up with as a solution.

Explain to me how you are gonna limit population without coming off as a racist. Without becoming a fascist. Without limiting freedom. Without destroying that which makes successful countries succesful. Show me the WAY!!!


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Anonymous

Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1011409 - 10/31/02 10:45 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Wow.

I had no idea you were that well-spoken or knowledgeable.

I hope you vote. :wink:

Cheers, 


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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1011442 - 10/31/02 10:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Well, we could do some research with HEMP FUEL as an alternate resource since we are running out of fossil fuels on earth as we speak. Not only would Hemp fuel rescue our air from fossil fuels' emissions, but if we used 6 % of our land to grow hemp for fuel, then America would be completely independant from other countries as far as fuel goes. Just think, no more high gas prices. And think of all those job openings for potential farmers.
:smirk: 


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012380 - 11/01/02 07:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

'You want me to pretend that Russia, China, France, Germany, etc... have my best interests in mind. You must be smoking some good shit over their in OZ.'
No, but none of these nation-states have ever had the guile to come out and state that they are the 'leader of the free world' while providing their law enforcement with the legitimacy to disregard the dignity and civil rights of its citizens before they are ever found guilty of any offence. No other nation in the free world detains its citizens for such lengthy periods or even has the barbarism of capital punishment.
Iraq and its military is a DIRECT result of the US marshall plan in the Middle East in its attempt to arm and fund those nations who it felt might provide a buffer from its old foe, communism. Now ofcourse, the US has a new foe in Islam and 'terrorism' which is an intangible force that they can use to justify military action against any part of the world they desire. Although there is NO evidence that Saddam or Iraq had any involvement in Sept 11 (and it was on of the few nations that was not implicated in this terrorist act), oil is cheap there, so off to war the USA will go. Also Iraq is a notorius supporter of the palenstinean cause - particularly unpopular in a USA that has such a financially powerful zionist lobby. So while Iraq and other middle-eastern nations are accussed of 'possibly having the potential to pose a biochemical threat' to other nations in the future, Us and its ally Israel has been has been free to invest fully in a biochemical and nuclear arsenal. During the coldwar, the USSR was so concerned about the hugely regionally disproportional military capability of Israel that it actually threatened its continued existence if it again acted against Egypt. However with the breakdown of the soviet bloc, there is no longer a watch dog in foreign policy affairs, and the hawks in Tel Aviv and Washington can justify any action - missiles vs stones - as counter terrorist - and always chuck in the odd 'al Queda' connection allegation to keep things quiet in their corporate-friendly media.
Again I will re-iterate - influence in the US democracy is only available to those who have the financial means to lobby representatives - voter apathy ensures that every day people in america will never have this ability.
In a recent poll of citizens of San Fran, CA, 60% of those interviews thought that the Berlin wall was in Israel, 40% thought that the main religion of Israel was Islam, 65% felt that Osama Bin Laden was Iraqi and 30% could not answer correctly which state Kentucky Fried Chicken hailed from. Does this sound like an informed population capable of lobbying?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012406 - 11/01/02 07:51 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

what utter rubbish. The usa leaves an environmental footprint far larger than it needs to. Fair enough, but when it starts to effect the rest of the world its not on.


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012411 - 11/01/02 07:52 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I hope thats irony. but i doubt it.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: GazzBut]
    #1012414 - 11/01/02 07:54 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****im not being funny but do you ever say anything not related to another poster i.e something on subject and intelligent?
****

well?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1012415 - 11/01/02 07:54 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think I understood you, but I disagree. The oceans don't supply the atmosphere with any more CO2 than they absorb. In fact there's good evidence saying that oceans absorb more--they're CO2 sinks.

And the quote doesn't say that humans contribute 10 percent of the CO2. It says that the CO2 levels have risen 10 percent since 1958. Though it does suggest that human activity contributes to that increase. And that's what I'm saying too. When fossil fuels (carbon) are burned, the carbon is combined with an O2 molecule and released as CO2. Whether the increasing CO2 levels is something to be worried about is a separate issue--the increasing levels obviously have to do with human activity.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: hongomon]
    #1012433 - 11/01/02 08:11 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

****Though it does suggest that human activity contributes to that increase. And that's what I'm saying too. ****

oh don't get me wrong, i'm not so naive as to think humans don't contribute to CO2 discharge (hence breathing, automobiles, decomposure..industry) however i don't think it's as high as the environmentalist claim it is. I'll try to find the site that mentions the oceans...i think pinksharkmark, evolving..or someone i can't remember posted it a long time ago...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: USA - the world's rogue state [Re: ]
    #1012659 - 11/01/02 10:37 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I have a feeling you've had this anti-environmentalism essay kicking around for a while and you finally found a chance to share it.  Cause the "you" in your post is not me.

"What you seem to never focus on, is the INDIVIDUALS that CONSUME the GOODS, OIL, Cows, CROPS, and TIMBER. The individuals that drive the cars, live in homes, eat exotic foods, play video games, use computers, etc....... Your system of thought does not include the people in it's solution. You don't include the people in the problem. Corporations can only make money selling things that people will buy!!!"

Actually I seem to often focus on this.  In fact, I've been labeled an elitist for it.  :shocked:  It comes down to the age-old argument of free-will vs. determinism.  I'm not willing to say "No one is forcing people to buy these things" and leave it at that.  The libertarian definition of force is very literal, and inadequate by itself in a complex world. 

On the other hand, I do feel that people, generally speaking, could be more responsible consumers.  But the message out of the commercial sector, as well as from their bedmates the government, is that the path out of our fix is greater spending, greater production.  That's crazy talk.  We can wrangle over definitions and relativize till our ass falls asleep, but in the final analysis it will be the very ecosystem you mention that decides if we consume too much, pollute too much, and alter ecosystems--locally and, ultimately, that great mother of all ecosystems, that's right, the goddess Gaia herself, may her infinite goodness grace us all--too much.

So actually, my system of thought does include the people in its solution.  I don't know how it could be brought about, but I'm pretty sure that without a popular revolution of attitudes and behavior, it can't.

What do you think of the moratorium on whaling?  Is that a bad thing?  Or what about the practice of catching a shark, cutting off its fins, and then throwing the rest of the shark back?  Is there any way to put an end to that through policy?  Obviously if people suddenly refused to buy shark fin soup the practice would end, but does that mean the problem can't be addressed from another direction as well?

I don't want supercrops to feed the world.  I want an agricultural revolution--I want people to stop buying products from the huge agri-businesses WHEREVER POSSIBLE, and start building up local agriculture.  There's nothing archaic about hydroponics, and for that matter there's a real flavor of modernity in organic farming.  I want the farm subsidy's current pyramidic allotment to reverse, so that the small farmers are enabled to produce for a local market.  Think of how much oil the current method uses JUST in transporting produce to regions where the same produce can grow, and often does!  Yet thanks largely to those subsidies, that produce still out-competes the local stuff.  This is an area where local communities really need to start talking about who they want to support when they shop.

"The ecosystem that is EARTH is far more complex then you or I can ever imagine. It includes people. It includes industry. It includes everything you think is the problem and everything you haven't come up with as a solution."

Unless you're thinking in geological time, you're really stretching it to say that industry is included in the ecosystem that is earth.  In the sense you present, a nuclear war is part of the ecosystem.  Sure, it may take several hundred thousand years for the system to remain its equilibrium, but that's just a blink of an eye, right?

Man's intelligence in effect disqualifies him from a natural, unconscious role in the ecosystem that, say, a seal, or a buffalo might play.  That intelligence brings with it a responsibility.  I just don't think that in the West a sense of that responsibility has developed as fully as other aspects of our culture.  We've got the importance of personal freedom pretty well figured out, but there seems to be only a remote sense of social responsibility.  It's pretty short-sighted.

For an environmental advocate who may not step on your toes quite so much,  check out this speech by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. 


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