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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2339588 - 02/16/04 02:06 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i've been to countries in europe where gasoline costs more per liter than it does per gallon here. they tend to use public transportation more, drive smaller vehicles, ride bicycles,

Then you clearly havn't been to the UK mush. Petrol the most expensive in Europe and car ownership still increasing. With the privatisation of public transport effectively destroying it things ain't looking good. The country came to a standstill a few years ago over the price of petrol.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2339612 - 02/16/04 02:13 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Here's my perspective on the oil crash and the collapse of industrial civilization.

The collapse is ineitable, not only that but REQUISITE if we are to find a sustainable, free and egalitarian way to live. Civilization is a coercive, oppressive system and it will go. Civilization has dug itself into its own demise and I'm not the least bit sad about the inevitablity of collapse. The sooner the better.

The article I posted pointed out the insufficiency of "alternatives" to replace oil, so reformism is a waste of our precious energy. Instead the work to be done is to decentralize and detechnologize our lives. Simplcity is key. The more complex a society gets the grander and more inevitable its collapse. People will naturally opt towards the simplest lifestyler available.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2339910 - 02/16/04 04:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The first thing you should get rid of is your computer.


The collapse of society won't be as much fun as you think it would be.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2340036 - 02/16/04 05:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon



The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: timetravel]
    #2340149 - 02/16/04 07:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

BUT we can buy an electric car, insulate our homes, go solar, or wind, and try as best we can on our own to get off the grid.

in other words, exactly what we will do when oil starts to get scarce and energy prices start going up.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2340152 - 02/16/04 07:30 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Petrol the most expensive in Europe and car ownership still increasing. With the privatisation of public transport effectively destroying it things ain't looking good.

if the price of oil gets high enough i assure you that the trend will reverse itself.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2340377 - 02/16/04 10:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

" when did the oil industry start keeping people from using alternate energy sources?"


ok the oil companies are in bush's cabinet. look them up, more than half are current or former CEO's of multi-billion dollar oil companies.

this means our oil companies are involved with our govt (duh!) I think the oil companies influence has been in our govt for a long time. if so why are there still these SUV's that get shitty gas milage on the road?? oh btw, 25K tax cuts to the rich who buy SUV's. doesn't makes sense does it?

so let's see here there's hemp (industrial hemp) that can be mined for oil hella easily!! govt knows this too but won't do shit.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: kaiowas]
    #2340454 - 02/16/04 11:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

ok the oil companies are in bush's cabinet. look them up, more than half are current or former CEO's of multi-billion dollar oil companies.

and they've used this power to prevent people from researching, developing, selling, or using alternative energy sources?

so let's see here there's hemp (industrial hemp) that can be mined for oil hella easily!! govt knows this too but won't do shit.

there are countries in the world in which hemp is legal to grow, and petroleum products cost more than they do here. have they switched to hemp energy? no.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2340469 - 02/16/04 11:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1. people will continue to use oil as long as it is the cheapest available source of energy.
2. as oil becomes more expensive than other sources of energy, people will turn to those other sources.
3. if energy becomes more expensive, people will use less of it


as we run out of oil, oil will become more expensive. this will be a gradual process. as it becomes more expensive than other sources of energy, we will use less of it and more of other energy sources. will energy be more expensive? in the short run, certainly. is oil the one and only source of energy? no, it's just the cheapest right now. some day, given the potential for technological progress, i predict that we will be using other energy sources, and energy will be even cheaper than it is now. untold amounts of energy are available on this planet. there is wind, solar, hydroelectric, geothermal, biomass... we could probably even harness the power of lightning.

when the oil starts to run low, yes, energy will (at least in the short run) become more expensive. we will have to learn to use less of it and will have to devote more of our personal finances towards energy reqirements. will it mean the "collapse of industrial civilization"? of course not.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: ]
    #2340605 - 02/16/04 12:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and they've used this power to prevent people from researching, developing, selling, or using alternative energy sources?

They havn't exactly helped have they.

there are countries in the world in which hemp is legal to grow, and petroleum products cost more than they do here. have they switched to hemp energy? no.

Takes a little bit more than that mush. How many corporations market products that can use hemp fuel?


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Xlea321]
    #2340612 - 02/16/04 12:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

They havn't exactly helped have they.

which is quite different than prevention.

Takes a little bit more than that mush. How many corporations market products that can use hemp fuel?

none, which is exactly the point. hemp fueled products are not currently economically viable because we still have cheap petroleum (amongst other reasons).


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2340685 - 02/16/04 12:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon



The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.




which is an infinitely better way to spend the $6.00..than to leave it availible to neocon twits..who will use it to further their own selfish interests...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2340695 - 02/16/04 12:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

which is an infinitely better way to spend the $6.00..than to leave it availible to neocon twits..who will use it to further their own selfish interests...

an even better way to "use" it would be not to sieze it in the first place, and let the person that earned it spend it as they see fit.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2340754 - 02/16/04 01:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Leaving aside for the moment the inaccuracies, distortions, baseless speculation and economic ignorance displayed in that article, let's remember that this forum is for discussion of things political, or activist, or legal.

How does the fact that oil is finite relate to --

1) Politics

What are the political implications here? Should the government enact legislation to slow the consumption of this resource?

2) Activism

Does someone here advocate protesting the consumption rate of oil, or starting a letter-writing campaign to legislators, or organizing a boycott of gasoline-consuming cars or whatever?

3) Law

Does someone here have a proposal for a law which will slow the consumption of oil?

In other words, let's try to keep the conversation focused on one of the above areas if possible.

Thank you.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2344388 - 02/17/04 03:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The collapse is ineitable, not only that but REQUISITE if we are to find a sustainable, free and egalitarian way to live. Civilization is a coercive, oppressive system and it will go. Civilization has dug itself into its own demise and I'm not the least bit sad about the inevitablity of collapse. The sooner the better.




what your basically saying is that the best way to stop the train is to speed it up and run it off the tracks...i dont disagree with that...but i wonder..if anyone will actually vote for bush based on that premise...not me...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2344459 - 02/17/04 04:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I used this analogy with a friend earlier tonight.

Civilization is like driving a car really really fast on an icy road. Its been a few miles since we realized we were headed right for the cliff but the driver (an old white man) has convinced the passengers that since we already chose this road we have no choice but to follow it to its end. Personally, I'd rather risk crashing into a few rocks and trees at the side of the road because of swerving than drive right over a cliff. Since everyone else in the car believes we have to continue along the road we chose to its inevitable end what choice does that leave me, in the back seat? I can shut my mouth and pray, scream really loiud, i can jump out of the car, or i can grab the wheel and pull hard.


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Anonymous

Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2345022 - 02/17/04 11:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

what do you think should be done?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: kaiowas]
    #2346264 - 02/17/04 05:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
ok the oil companies are in bush's cabinet. look them up, more than half are current or former CEO's of multi-billion dollar oil companies.




I'd like a link for that, if you please. Do you know who comprises his Cabinet? Was Condi running Exxon? The Don, Amoco?
Quote:


this means our oil companies are involved with our govt (duh!) I think the oil companies influence has been in our govt for a long time.




When you trade in the commodity that the nation uses for fuel, you tend to have some respect. Perhaps the "People for the cuddlation, huggation and luvvation of cuddly, furry, adorable animals" would have more support if the entire world moved on their commodity, but it doesn't.
Quote:


if so why are there still these SUV's that get shitty gas milage on the road??




If you are asserting that "the oil companies" are running the government, and showing as evidence the fact that they allow people to make their own decisions about what vehicles to drive, whats the problem? Shouldn't people have rights?
Quote:


oh btw, 25K tax cuts to the rich who buy SUV's. doesn't makes sense does it?




Not one bit of sense, what the fuck are you talking about? I have an SUV and I have NEVER recieved a 25K tax cut, tho I pay more than that every year. How do I fill this out on my taxes so I'll get a 25K cut?
Quote:


so let's see here there's hemp (industrial hemp) that can be mined for oil hella easily!! govt knows this too but won't do shit.



How, exactly, does one mine for hemp?


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2346279 - 02/17/04 05:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

it'll cost $6.00+ a gallon



The reason gas costs 6.00+ a gallon is because the dumb fucks in their governments tax the shit out of it to pay for social programs for the lazy and worthless.

Not from any shortage.




which is an infinitely better way to spend the $6.00..than to leave it availible to neocon twits..who will use it to further their own selfish interests...




You missed the point, grandly so. He was stating that the CAUSAL REASON for gasoline being so expensive was the taxes placed on it's sale. Gasoline isn't sold the world round for 6$/gallon, it's sold (I'm not even sure that it's true, I'm going on what alex or someone in the UK said) in the UK for 6 dollars per gallon. How about instead of the communists or the "neocons" having to decide how to spend this tax money, the government just *gasp* DOESNT TAX IT SO MUCH? Gas where I live is running about 1.60$/gallon, why not elimiate the 5 dollars in taxes that they have?

Or is eliminating taxes not in the verbage of a liberal


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Invisibletimetravel
I'm going toMars!

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 163
Loc: Holland
Re: Collapse of Industrial Civilization [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2346666 - 02/17/04 06:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Not one bit of sense, what the fuck are you talking about? I have an SUV and I have NEVER recieved a 25K tax cut, tho I pay more than that every year. How do I fill this out on my taxes so I'll get a 25K cut?
 



I wrote the 25k off my taxes for buying an suv that cost more than 50k. You have to own a business and use it for business. :laugh:


--------------------
Everything in this post happened 7 years ago. If you do not feel good get a hobby like r/c airplane flying.


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