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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4408361 -

I think I got what you were saying before, but I still don't agree with it entirely.


Let's supose most humans feel a pain in their backs when they run too fast, and a couple of them don't, so they run fast.
The rest look down on him, and say he should follow their standards of morality, and should not run fast, and should feel pain for running fast.

Like if this is supposed to be about psychopaths, it forgets to include a key part, that guilt occurs because of the pain we cause others, it should be more like this:




Let's supose most humans feel a pain in their backs when they run too fast, and those around them feel double that pain. A couple of them don't feel any pain, so they run fast.
The rest look down on him, and say he should follow their standards of morality, and should not run fast, and should feel pain for running fast.

Now the fact that they look down on him seems to make a lot more sense, doesn't it?

I believe that truth should be sought after, and pain minimized. I don't believe that the universe gives a shit either way, but I know that I do.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4408375 -

outside of human emotionality, feeling pain because of weather changes and feeling pain because your mother is going to die is one and the same thing. A couse of pain and sensation of pain.
So I think my analogy is still correct. It is our priorities that make a difference between these two pains.
But priorities are only opinions


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4408446 -

i don't see how that would work. ultimately you will die and lose all your posessions. if posessions are your happiness, then losing them (through death or any other means) will be the end of your happiness.

generally, the point of religion is to find inner peace, so that no matter what is taken away from you, you will still be happy. if your source of happiness lies outside of the mind, then there is always the chance that you will lose your happiness.

for example; someone goes and buys a load of nice clothes. they feel great and happy. that night i break into their house and steal their clothes. they become unhappy. what if i steal all their money as well so they can't buy replacement clothes? what if i also burn down their house and kill all their friends and family? they become even more unhappy.

if on the other hand, someone has no care for the material, and is happy with just being, then i can do all of the above, even physically injure them, and they will still be happy. the worst i can do is kill them; but what if they don't mind being killed? there is no way they can be unhappy.


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"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

Edited by alsey (07/15/05 03:59 PM)

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: alsey]
    #4408489 -

alsey said:
for example; someone goes and buys a load of nice clothes. they feel great and happy. that night i break into their house and steal their clothes. they become unhappy. what if i steal all their money as well so they can't buy replacement clothes? what if i also burn down their house and kill all their friends and family? they become even more unhappy.




man, I'm calling the cops :lol:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4408529 -


outside of human emotionality, feeling pain because of weather changes and feeling pain because your mother is going to die is one and the same thing. A couse of pain and sensation of pain.
So I think my analogy is still correct.


?????
I didn't separate different kinds of pain in my post.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4408542 -

You corrected my analogy by replacing pain of others with pain for yourself, and I assument by that you ment that there is a difference between the two.

p.s. I don't really believe in all this crap about violence. I call it crap because it goes against my beliefs. But it does make perfect sense to me in terms of logic. But I prefer being illogical and pushing the idea of love to everyone instead.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: alsey]
    #4408543 -


i don't see how that would work. ultimately you will die and lose all your posessions. if posessions are your happiness, then losing them (through death or any other means) will be the end of your happiness.

There's a difference between gaining happiness through the aquisition of posessions and gaining happiness through merely having the posessions.

When I play a video game, my goal might be to get the most points possible. Once I have the points and finish the game, I cast them aside and my satisfaction is not diminished.

Some people just like collecting things. It's an activity, and they get a certain satisfaction out of making their collection more complete.

This doesn't mean that their entire happiness is tied up in the collection, it is but one source of satisfaction.

the worst i can do is kill them; but what if they don't mind being killed? there is no way they can be unhappy.

Sure they'd be unhappy. They'd also be unsad. Changes in happiness and emotional state seem to be related to material changes within the brain... who says that someone who doesn't want to die feels any different than someone who does want to die, after they die?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4408570 -

Phluck said:
I may stab a man to feel better about myself, and to reach a spiritual realization, but what effects have I brought forth on the environment in which I live, and, in the long-term, my own mind and well-being?

This assumes that morals are actually universal. That someone who felt spiritually fulfilled by murder would really deep down have a moral objection to it.


It doesn't assume anything beyond that one's actions will have effects on other variables in one's environment, which in turn will have further effects on oneself and one's experience.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4408597 -

that many not be so, in fact it is quite rare..

people who steal in gloves (the ones in suits), steal all their lives, buy houses, yachts, and die rich and satisfied without ever feeling a bit of the damage they have done to others.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4408618 -



It doesn't assume anything beyond that one's actions will have effects on other variables in one's environment, which in turn will have further effects on oneself and one's experience.

It seems rather like wishful thinking to believe that all bad things you do will come bad to you badly. All things you do will have an effect on your life... but just because you do something nasty doesn't mean that there isn't a possibility that it will come back to you in a positive way.

No matter how many times parents tell their kids "life isn't fair", it seems that deep down people still was to believe that it is.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4408826 -

I think it is perfectly fair, it's just that we are not well adopted to that idea of fair because we always look from our point of view and miss the larger picture.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4408848 -

i agree if it seems like if its unfair its ones own fault because of making poor choices and action.

deffinition of insainity is making the same choices and expecting a different outcome.


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: spudamore]
    #4408910 -

I'm not sure that's what he meant. I think he was implying that the concept of fair as we know it is ridiculous, that even making the right choices can result in tremendous pain and sadness, and that this is what fairness is.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4408926 -

and that pain and sadness can lead to many other great things down the road if you choose so.


--------------------
suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4410772 -

Phluck said:
There's a difference between gaining happiness through the aquisition of posessions and gaining happiness through merely having the posessions.

When I play a video game, my goal might be to get the most points possible. Once I have the points and finish the game, I cast them aside and my satisfaction is not diminished.

Some people just like collecting things. It's an activity, and they get a certain satisfaction out of making their collection more complete.

This doesn't mean that their entire happiness is tied up in the collection, it is but one source of satisfaction.


right, i understand you better now. kind of like shaolin; the important thing is not becoming a good fighter, but learning how to fight.

in that case, i totally agree with you. using the material to gain satisfaction is not wrong. as long as your happiness does not come from posession of material things themselves.

Quote:
the worst i can do is kill them; but what if they don't mind being killed? there is no way they can be unhappy.

Sure they'd be unhappy. They'd also be unsad. Changes in happiness and emotional state seem to be related to material changes within the brain... who says that someone who doesn't want to die feels any different than someone who does want to die, after they die?


i agree. but a person who doesn't want to die will be unhappy as they are dying. a person who finds 'inner peace' will be happy all the way until death.


--------------------
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Phluck]
    #4410947 -

Phluck said:
I'm not sure that's what he meant. I think he was implying that the concept of fair as we know it is ridiculous, that even making the right choices can result in tremendous pain and sadness, and that this is what fairness is.


what I was trying to say is that it may not seem fair from an egocentric point of view. Our idea of fair is having enough of material posesions, having great emotions in life, living long and having great family and friends. I think universe is fair on a larger scale. It is fair to entire species. And it is their job to be fair to each other.

Earth gave us everything we need to have paradise, we suffer not because universe is not fair, but because we are unfair to each other.
But universe has been perfectly fair to humanity. We could have reached the stars long ago if we were not unfair to each other.

If your life sucks, don't as deities why is it, as your neighbours, they are the ones making it suck.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4411087 -

I agree with everything you say here, except maybe the last sentence, and only because you didn't add yourself to the reasons life may suck, to you.  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Icelander]
    #4411162 -

I guess one of the things that you can do to get close to god (_nature_) is to get involved in matertials that attract holy power.

from my point of view this works once you get completely exhausted from finding the connections between these constructs and symbols, and - then, at your weakest moment, you do connect with the beloved;

but it has nothing to do with the array of symbology or paraphanelia that had been collected on the path from the old life to the new one.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: Icelander]
    #4411189 -

Icelander said:
I agree with everything you say here, except maybe the last sentence, and only because you didn't add yourself to the reasons life may suck, to you.  :thumbup:


Yea, you can be the reason too


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Enlightenment through the aquisition of material goods. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4411432 -

Earth gave us everything we need to have paradise, we suffer not because universe is not fair, but because we are unfair to each other.
That is, as I think too, totally true, but...

But universe has been perfectly fair to humanity. We could have reached the stars long ago if we were not unfair to each other.
As you like turning round statements, consider this:
We even would not be on the moon without unfairness to each other. Wasn't it a project to show the superiority of one nation in some specific field of development ?

So, it can even have some spiritual value, to horde material value, as for example, share it with the poor, or building spacecrafts for further scientific and human evolution.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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