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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Registered: 03/14/01
Posts: 443
Loc: MA
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Psychedelics are good?
    #617821 - 04/24/02 10:06 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I know this question has been brought up before in many different times and places, but I thought I'd ask it again slightly differently.

For me, when I trip I have a fantastic sense that I understand more of reality than I normally do. I am thinking deeper into things, and I get amazing realizations into life that all seem so significant and mind-blowing. However, is this feeling of somehow going deeper into reality just an illusion?

Maybe that's just how psychedelics work. Opiates and stimulants are addictive because they make you feel really good and you want to feel that good again. Psychedelics are addictive because they make you think you've stumbed across something deeply profound but in the end its just the drug, no more noble than heroin or cocaine. The drug is just addictive in a different way.

I'm not saying I believe this per se, its just a question. I obviously do feel that my experiences are significant in some kind of personal/spiritual way, but what proof do I have that it isn't just a drug making me think ordinary experience is significant?

I tend to believe that psychedelics just facilitate your own processes. If you have a spiritual epiphany while tripping on mushrooms, you did actually had a spiritual epiphany and the drug just "loosened" up your mind enough for you to get there. Although I have no way of knowing this for sure, it just seems like I'm much happier thinking this way.

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InvisibleFloydian
veteran
Registered: 05/13/00
Posts: 1,022
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #617830 - 04/24/02 10:17 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I too have struggled with this in my head before. I used to really treasure my psychedelic experiences. But something changed somewhere along the line. Not sure what, I think I just got disillusioned.

When i tried San Pedro for the first time not too long ago (my first trip in months) it was amazing but it didn't have that profoundness that I used to get with Mush. It all seemed pretty pointless. I was really enjoying the drug but I felt it was just a drug experience and nothing more.

Blah


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Don't squeeze the pancake batter

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #617840 - 04/24/02 10:29 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

That is a difficult question. All i can say is that psychedelics do some wierd sh*t to the way that your brain functions. The complexity of this is far beyond our understanding. If you can utilize the effect of psychedilics in a productive way then it is benificial. Some, however, will never use a psychedelic for anything more than twirling a glow stick and watching the "pretty lights". Not that there is anything wrong with that.



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:egyptian:

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Anonymous

Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #618079 - 04/25/02 04:26 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

you did actually had a spiritual epiphany and the drug just "loosened" up your mind enough for you to get there

agreed... i have always felt that way.

the trick is carrying what you've gained from psychedelics into your normal awareness the best that you can. like going to school... you learn a bunch of stuff over a period of time and then you take it into the real world and apply what you have learned. then maybe take some night classess when you get older. :wink: 

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Offlinefrogsheath
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Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #618106 - 04/25/02 05:28 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

For me psychedelics are a magical medium which helps me either to get from point a to point b or to make a round trip. They are like art. They communicate reality The trip ends, but what happened is a part of you for the rest of your life. I am using them (I hope) more and more purposefully, and less recreationally. Although I still have a blast in those classes (night and day).

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OfflineTeonanacatl fan
journeyman
Registered: 06/28/00
Posts: 38
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: frogsheath]
    #618173 - 04/25/02 08:21 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

How can you compare cocaine with shrooms?

Just the drug? My friend, chemicals are everywhere. Remember the quote:
"Reality is a seratonin induced hallucination".

You create the experience and the purpose of any drug

I only shroom a couple of times a year, but I guess that I'm a drug addict because I remember the teachings of Teonanacatl every day. I practice meditation, I?ve rediscovered an interest for nature and science, I'm a Pink Floyd and Tool fan and I come to the spirituality and philosophy forum regularly.

I guess I'm a Junkie...

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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Teonanacatl fan]
    #618191 - 04/25/02 08:41 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

True hallucinogens are non-addicting. Also, they are good for you (and me).
Can we endure an unchanging realm of conscious behavior without respite? Are we not,
as Shakespeare tells us, "such stuff as dreams are made on"?
(last two sentences were ripped off from "Narcotic Plants" by William Emboden)

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #618229 - 04/25/02 09:25 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

There not good or bad they just are.
I to feel the goodness on them but perhaps is in the way I use them, with respect and moderation.
Like any thing if you abuse it or use them incorrectly like wasting your self and later go driving you make them bad.

But if you are asking if they are a good tool for self-exploration I think they are, at least for me.
I have done meditation and other spiritual disciplines for years, and I am not saying they are bad, no they are good.
But 5g of cubies will give you and experience that no mediation had ever gave me before.
But to distill the experience and information learned on a trip may take some time to incorporated into your self, but that?s another topic.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #618243 - 04/25/02 09:38 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

This is something from a person who had a Near death experience but it pretty much sums up the psychedelic experience for me:

"Although it's been twenty years since my heavenly voyage, I
have never forgotten it. Nor have I, in the face of ridicule and disbelief,
ever doubted its reality. Nothing that intense and life-changing could
possibly have been a dream or hallucination. To the contrary, I consider the
rest of my life to be a passing fantasy, a brief dream, that will end when I
again awaken in the permanent presence of that divine life and bliss."


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Registered: 03/14/01
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Loc: MA
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: LOBO]
    #618290 - 04/25/02 10:33 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, I agree. But I can't help but think in the back of my mind that maybe this quest for insight is just screwing myself up, although that's probably just my paranoid side showing itself.

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #618316 - 04/25/02 10:59 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

My best advice to you is the one that I fallow, do any thing but in moderation, if it does not work discard it and try another one, I came to the conclusion that no one has a road map to enlightenment (but many clime to have it), what?s good for some one could be terrible for another one, we each have to find our way, perhaps we will never reach it, perhaps it is unreachable like a stair that has no end.
And above all listen to you inner voice, the only one knows what?s best for you, your true companion.
Peace.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: LOBO]
    #618334 - 04/25/02 11:24 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

The one that i follow is "if at first you dont succeed, try and try again"
For myself, that star is no longer unreachable.


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:egyptian:

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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #618461 - 04/25/02 01:53 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure at least some of what you may experience as "epiphanies" are the real deal. My professor tells me that he and his grad student buddies at the time pretty much developed their theory of human motivation through several pot/shroom sessions. I personally feel like I have gotten a pretty good look at "non-attachment" (ego-striving, narcissism) while on shrooms and set this as a standard to work toward in my non-shrooming life. I think the way to really measure how valid these ideas we get are is by how much they change our behavior afterwards.

Whether or not we can incorporate these revelations into our non-shrooming lives is a big question. I'm not quite sure yet, for myself anyway. I definitely changed toward this non-attachment idea for a few days following my last trip, but I think it may be fading. If it is possible, it requires some proactive effort- you can't just sit back. You have to make a conscious effort to change your old patterns. More shrooming may help too. I try to make my gauge for this my measurable behavior, not my view or philosophy on things. I can sit around and philosophize about how we are one with the universe all I want, but until I actually incorporate this into my behavior (insert any revelation you may have had) the revelation remains impotent. The responsibility remains with you to make any change.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: buttonion]
    #618528 - 04/25/02 03:22 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

At the moment working it into my everyday life isn't too big a deal for me, not sure if it's possible to mix meditation/self-development/enlightenment with working in an office 8 hours a day. Everyday life is basically behaving in the strict submissive pattern the capitalist masters have commanded us to do. Everyday life is a complete negation of humanity. It's basically pissing your life away to make someone else rich.

The purpose of the shrooms for me are more as a golden light in the darkness. I realise that there's more to life and more to being human than what the capitalist scumbags who run the world insist there is. At the moment that's good enough.

But of course I keep reading plenty of self-enlightenment books as much as i can.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Xlea321]
    #618558 - 04/25/02 04:07 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123, you dont have to do anything that you dont want to do. You just have to be intelligent about it. You need to take the need for food and shelter into consideration before you do anything and you will always need to work for that in some way or another. However, it is certainly unnecessary to work 8 hours a day for these things unless you must provide for others as well.


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:egyptian:

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Xlea321]
    #618650 - 04/25/02 06:10 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

There has always been some struggle to deal in the physical plane, and is a must that you have to over come it, you are made of matter don't forget.
The difficulties of the realms of the mind and spirit are probably more difficult to deal than that of matter, so if you can?t over come the first one what makes you think you can over come the second one.
Just food for thought.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: LOBO]
    #618862 - 04/25/02 10:03 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I think psychedelics are good, not because it force-feeds you profound knowlegde. I think it just allows you to see things in a different light. I don't see the harm in that but you do have to respect the experience. The ancient societies who practiced ritualized drug use always approached it respect. I think sometimes a lot of young people use psychedelics to see how "fucked up" they can get and I think that cheapens the experience for all of us.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #618871 - 04/25/02 10:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Hear, Hear, infidelGOD!


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Anonymous

Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #618942 - 04/25/02 11:42 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

infidelGOD, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I also think that many young people over use them and are under the impression that they are a fast track to enlightenment. They can be useful tools if used intelligently, but can also pose serious problems for people who are emotionally or mentally unstable.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Catalysis]
    #618953 - 04/25/02 11:55 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Catalysis, mortgages don't come cheap.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinefrogsheath
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Loc: Chicago, Illinois U.S.A.
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: ]
    #618956 - 04/25/02 11:59 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah. It all started as a "cheap experience" for me. Come to think of it, it still is relatively cheap. Ironically, of any drug out there, I can't think of one that is as good and cheap as acid. Having said that, why are all these crappy new drugs making appearances --crack, crank (havn't tried), crystal meth (havn't tried), special k (havn't tried), and others?

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OfflineCynicalMagician
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Registered: 08/28/01
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Anonymous]
    #619058 - 04/26/02 02:29 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I think smack is right on the nose here...

"the trick is carrying what you've gained from psychedelics into your normal awareness the best that you can."

If you dont take anything that you learn or experience while on drugs and apply it positively to "real life", then it is just a drug experience and you're just like someone shooting h for a good time. I believe that any drug can lead to revelations typical to the ones you have on psychedelics, but with psychedelics you're a lot more prone to having them than with coke or whatever. Unless you use the things you learn, then you're not really learning.


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----------------------

"Order some golf shoes," I whispered. "Otherwise, we'll never get out of this place alive. You notice these lizards don't have any trouble moving around in this muck - that's because they have ~claws~ on their feet."

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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: CynicalMagician]
    #619251 - 04/26/02 08:32 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"When it is used sacramentally, then it is an entheogen. Until then, it is just a psychedelic, or perhaps only just a drug." -from The Entheogen Review

Intention is everything. If you go into a psychedelic experience with motives of personal growth, insight, and illumination then that's the kind of experience you will have. If you go into it wanting to get ripped, then its the same as any other drug.

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OfflineSofaJesus
journeyman
Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 69
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #619446 - 04/26/02 01:02 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

You wrote, "If you go into it wanting to get ripped....."

I know what everyone is saying here and i think its very important.. Personally I've been working on meditation... and basically working on relaxing....

But who doesn't like to turn their good friends when they're tripping balls and yell out "I'm completely fucked up"

.... It's good to laugh.. but like they say "Never turn your back on a drug"


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #619452 - 04/26/02 01:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

The first couple of times i took mushrooms, it was out of curiosity, that was before I even really considered myself spiritually questioning, but I think the shrooms helped that questioning, and since then I have always taken them in the spirit of spiritual discovery. However I must admit that I have trouble carrying things over from my trips back to the real world. IN the first wave of the trip I am always just lying still and having what seem like lots of profound metaphysical insights, and I always want to capture them somehow so that i dont lose them. But I think it is too easy to get caught up in grasping at the experience, and that can taint it. I remember during my last trip just telling myself, that this is rgeat, but don't get attached because later on things will be back to normal. That allowed me to get even more out of the trip because I was relieved of the pressure to retain something or have some inner transformation. So i think that assuming that mushrooms will give you something is mistaken and dangerous. It is better to just see it as an experience like any other, and allow the mushrooms to open your mind, so that perhaps you will get something out of it. If not any major cgange, at least I usually feel spiritually fresher, especiallt after many stagnant weeks that I see myself falling into ruts....
I hope this is coherent.

Peace Earthlings.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #619792 - 04/26/02 07:24 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I have trouble carrying things over from my trips back to the real world. IN the first wave of the trip I am always just lying still and having what seem like lots of profound metaphysical insights, and I always want to capture them somehow so that i dont lose them.

Try keeping a journal (I always do... it really helps). If it is all coming too fast, try just spitting it out (when it is possible) into a tape recorder. Sometimes when I feel like really truckin', I'll have a sober friend write down what I say... in addition to asking questions and whatnot (this may sound stupid, but it helps to get your thoughts in a defined track...). I do this mainly to be as productive as possible (not for the purpose of being efficient). And to get the most out of my experiences... qualitatively speaking.

If I can't bring anything back, it serves no purpose... I don't want to just have experiences that I can't learn something from.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: ]
    #619875 - 04/26/02 08:57 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I guess it's impossible to know if the knowledge you get under the influence isn't just an illusion. But I like to think (believe?) that there is real benifit to taking psychedelics in the correct manner. After all, most psychedelics are from the earth and if mother earth wanted to gently "tell" us something, what better way?

Is it just coincidence that people who take psychedelics have a deep respect for nature and mother earth? (just my observation)

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #619916 - 04/26/02 09:46 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Is it just coincidence that people who take psychedelics have a deep respect for nature and mother earth?

Careful... this is a loaded question. Not all people who take psychedelics have a deep respect for nature. I think this is just part of the IMAGE of a psychonaut. However, I do understand what you are getting at. I look at it like this: People who take entheogens TEND to think about things like nature and whatnot in a more compassionate manner, because they TEND to recognize the inherent interconnectivity of all life-forms on this planet. Therefore, they TEND to have a greater respect for nature, in general.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Sclorch]
    #619926 - 04/26/02 09:59 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah that was just speculation based on personal observations.


But i like to think that when I trip, it IS trying to tell me something.
Whatever it is...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #619929 - 04/26/02 10:02 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

After all, most psychedelics are from the earth and if mother earth wanted to gently "tell" us something, what better way?
Is eating a Death Cap or Destroying Angel (a variety of amanitas mushroom) mother earth's gentle way (liver destruction) of telling us it's time to go home?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #619933 - 04/26/02 10:08 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

When is an idea a truth? When lots of people agree on it. And so if you bop yourself on the head and by some unnatural means come up with a thought as unique as a snowflake, no one is going to agree with it. And so you have means to determine the truth, there is no unfortunate life in illusion.

No two snowflakes are alike, and we see millions of them fall at a time. Everyone has a choice, the snowflake or not. If we all choose snowflake, then its true.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Swami]
    #619936 - 04/26/02 10:10 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

No, that's the mushroom's way of telling us:

"Don't eat me! I want to live!"

Which brings up an interesting point:

A lot of naturally occuring psychedelics are actually meant to poison.




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OfflineJPAtanat
member
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: djfrog]
    #619944 - 04/26/02 10:23 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

i dont think that something becomes a truth when a bunch of people agree on it. Then it is just something that a bunch of people agree on.
I don't really understand the rest of what you said. Maybe you are saying that if we all take mushrooms, mushrooms will become truth? Im confused.....


Peace Earthlings.

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #619952 - 04/26/02 10:31 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I think terrance mckenna said it best when he talked about humans (animals?) having developed a symbiotic relationship with these plants throughout evolutionary history.

While some substances act as a poison to the body (such as ethyl alcohol), i believe that compounds such as psilocybin and LSD especially, are amazingly selective in thier function in the human body. They are said to resemble typical nuerotransmitters so closely that your brain cells can not tell the difference. This, i find particularly interesting.



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:egyptian:

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Anonymous

Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #619961 - 04/26/02 10:43 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I guess it's impossible to know if the knowledge you get under the influence isn't just an illusion.
I think it's important to try to make a distinction between illusion and reality. However, we can learn from illusions, just as we can learn from parables or fables. Oftentimes, fictions or illusions can be a powerful teachers by giving us perspectives that are unusual and emphasize things that may go unnoticed in the normal world.

Edited by evolving (04/26/02 10:48 PM)

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: ]
    #619973 - 04/26/02 10:55 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

yes, i agree with evolving. Sometimes the illusions can be even more useful than "reality" as long as you can see them for what they truely are and integrate this into your psyche and your life. i believe that INTELLIGENT contemplation of the illusion/reality discrepency is key.


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:egyptian:

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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: ]
    #619974 - 04/26/02 10:55 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

i personally believe that life itself is at least a little bit illusory, so the entheogenic experience, although it may be composed of illusions, also holds a level of Truth, and simply by virtue of the fact that it is a vastly different experience from our ordinary perception makes it very valuable.
So i think evolving's is a good point. We can learn, even from illusions.

Peace Earthlings.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #620147 - 04/27/02 02:49 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I agree that you can learn from illusions.

I think terrance mckenna said it best when he talked about humans (animals?) having developed a symbiotic relationship with these plants throughout evolutionary history.

I don't know about a symbiotic relationship throughout evolutionary history.
These plants have been around long before human beings. I don't think they were "made" for us or are in a sybiotic relationship with us. Even though LSD and psilocybin resemble neurotransmitters in our brains. Those neurotransmitters are also present in animal brains and they are effected by these drugs as well.

Psychedelics were probably developed by the plants as defense mechanisms against being eaten by animals. I doubt a cow accidently eating shrooms in a pasture will "enjoy" the experience. More likely he will avoid those shrooms in the future.

Maybe there is another explanation for psychedelic plants. Maybe they're a gift from the gods or something. Maybe just a fortunate coincidence.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #620157 - 04/27/02 03:19 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I have heard that some people can have visionary experiences from poisonous (but non-fatal) snake bites. Perhaps many substances that tweak with your brain chemistry will put you in an altered state; and that state may seem mystical because it is so different from the ordinary brain functioning that we call reality.

The same may be said of deleriums from illness, sleep deprivation or prolonged fasting.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineJustFootsteps
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Re: Psychedelics are good? [Re: Sclorch]
    #620184 - 04/27/02 04:34 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

most of the people i know who takes psychs do it to get spun, and they're car-drivin', can-trashin', meat-eatin', capitalism slaves whose vague notion of environmentalism is backed up by nothin' Atall. but the Kids of the Sun i know have tripped in nature, tripped with kats present, and come without effort to a state of profound animality that makes it much easier to tread lightly and endure the trivial slings and arrows of the unaware, then to hurt our Mother, mess up our Playpen, break the most beautiful Toys ever...

just a tendency, but a strong one... real entheogenic types are easy to spot by the kindness and selflessness implicit in their day-to-day choices.


--------------------
in peace,
just footsteps
http://www.whyvegan.org

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