Phluck said:

Empathy and guilt are like sensations of pain.
When some hits you on the head, you reach your head with arms.

But that doesn't mean that you MUST touch your head if it hurts.
It simply means that you are folowing an instinct.

Well, yes, I do agree completely. I don't think that there is any kind of morality built into the universe, or even that all people have empathy or guilt, or that they are all triggered by the same things.

I do think that morality originates from empathy and guilt, their existance is the factor that makes many minds believe that they are components of the universe, and the reason that morality became a part of religion.

Empathy is emapthy, it does not give you messages from god or universe if god does not exist.

Again, I agree completely, but it very often makes people believe that they are receiving messages from God.

I feel that trying to reduce the suffering of others is noble. I do feel that my notion of nobility, as it is for absolutely everyone, is completely fabricated.

Most people think that their morals have a good basis, that they are not completely arbitrary. The idea of avoiding inflicting harm on others is a common justification for certain morals.

Materialism, which is commonly criticized, even by people who would agree that it is best to have a rational basis for moral opinions, does not seem to meet this criteria.

Not that the universe gives a shit one way or the other, but materialism does not necessarily harm others, while other actions that are commonly considered morally wrong, like violence or theft, do.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I don't think. I'm just saying that there isn't the same justification for attacking materialism as there is for other things.

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OldWoodSpecter said:

fishing can be more spiritual than meditation, and meditation can be more spiritual than fishing, all depends on the personal definition of spiritual

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Huehuecoyotl said:

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way; so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
-Emo Philips

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LOL That guy would make a good TV evangalist.

There are three aspects to life. Material, mental, and spiritual. Without one of these you are not a whole person.

Phluck said:

It's difficult to stick so much as you pinky toe in this forum without having about fifty people telling you that the material world is one of illusion and greed. Shopping, or being a "consumer" in any way means that you're lost, you're following a false path, you've got your values all confused and mixed up.

The less you have, the better you are, apparently.

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Phluck said:

What if someone honestly believed that they could achieve happiness or inner peace by shopping? What if someone simply enjoys the act of say, purchasing clothes, to the point that it gives them a kind of spiritual thrill? Is there something inherantly wrong with this?

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What if someone honestly believed that they could achieve happiness or inner peace by homicide? What if someone simply enjoys the act of, say, stabbing random people in the throat with a rusty, ten inch knive, to the point that it gives them a kind of spiritual thrill? Is there something inherently wrong with this?

Nei, there is nothing inherently wrong with this, or anything. Action is simply action, existing without meaning. Of course, one's actions have far-reaching effects on one's environment and one's own mind. Regardless of what one does or why one does it, what one gains as a result, these actions will have ramifications that effect just about everything else in existance.

Where am I going with this? That is to be considered. We choose the activities in which we participate in, we effect our mind and our environment by doing so. Careful consideration of the actions we take and how they effect our own mind and our environment, the manner in which we change the face of existance itself, seems to be something to keep in mind.

Personally, I would not demand that any activity be undergone for myself to experience a state of happiness or that of a "spiritual thrill" (confusing set of words ). If it is necessary for me to fufill some demand in order for my state of being to be centered in, than I am going to take effort towards satisfying that demand, which creates quite the vicious cycle that will effect my own mind and my environment in adverse ways. I may stab a man to feel better about myself, and to reach a spiritual realization, but what effects have I brought forth on the environment in which I live, and, in the long-term, my own mind and well-being?


Peace.

Phluck said:

If there is no god, and everything is pure chance and random matter and energy, is there one good reason why he should not lie, steal, kill or whatever?

If there is a god, is there a reason?

I don't see how there is ever a real reason.

Why musn't I judge? What is the reason for not judging?

I judge him against what I have pretty much arbitrarily chosen as reasons to repect people.

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Phluck said:

I may stab a man to feel better about myself, and to reach a spiritual realization, but what effects have I brought forth on the environment in which I live, and, in the long-term, my own mind and well-being?

This assumes that morals are actually universal. That someone who felt spiritually fulfilled by murder would really deep down have a moral objection to it.

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