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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Kalix]
    #4235768 -

5.5. Who pays for the JREF's expenses, and why?

Again, you do, and again, it's spelled out in the Challenge rules. The reason is that the JREF doesn't see any reason for it to spend any money to help you defend yourself. However, all observers work on a volunteer basis, so no JREF associate or investigator will present you with an expense bill following testing. The JREF will not surprise you with such added costs. You are expected to arrive at testing with everything you need, and it is your job to make the necessary provisions beforehand. The JREF will in no way assist you in these matters.

That rule sucks, unless you happen to be not only gifted, and rich..


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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: The Shotgun of Sweet Reason

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #4235770 -

Diploid said:
All I want to see is you doing what you say you can do. No mystic has ever once demonstrated what they say they can do.


That's funny.. I've seen it happen a lot. Except they don't say they are going to do it. They just do it.


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Re: Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #4235773 -

we can manipulate the results all we want

Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by the JREF.

What do you care what the JREF does with the test materials AFTER the entire process is done and over with?

All of the applicant's expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.

They're not going to feed or board you on their nickle, so what? How does this manipulate the test?

When entering into this challenge, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, against any persons peripherally involved, and against the James Randi Educational Foundation, as far as this may be done by established statutes.

They don't want to be sued by every crackpot who fails the test, so what?

Where do you get manipulation of the test from the above?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (05/30/05 07:15 PM)

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #4235775 -

That's funny.. I've seen it happen a lot. Except they don't say they are going to do it. They just do it.

Yah, but none of them can win the JREF prize. You'll forgive me if I don't believe you.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #4235792 -

So you're telling me you've never once in your life had a spiritual experience? Everything is all cold hard logic?

Yeah, maybe because the JREF prize is unwinnable. They hold all the cards.
I don't know why it's called the educational foundation either. They certainly aren't educating anything. If they were they would be using that money and a loose set of rules to try and explore the possibilities of supernatural activity. Not to try and shut down all possibility, and offer some huge reward for anyone who can jump through their hoops. I don't see what's educational about that. Except oh wait.. we learn how NOT to approach exploring metaphysics objectively.


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Re: Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #4235813 -

OK, firstly, yes, the fact that none of the people who were supposedly involved in the CIA (i *think* it was the CIA) programme have gone for that prize - actually they may have, so i'll say won it instead - is suspicious. But not proof that it's all a lie. They didn't have 100% success rate. As i said, it was apparently very stressful for them, affected their personal lives badly, so maybe they decided to stop doing it altogether when the programme stopped.
The programme stopped because it wasn't economic. It was too expensive to get results. If you read what i wrote, and it looks like you did, you'll realise it's not as ultimate a "weapon" as you seem to be implying. You couldn't for example, use it to find Bin Laden unless you were VERY lucky. Why? you need to know where he is in the first place, if you are to give the remote viewer the co-ordinates to find him at. See?
Now, imagine, for a minute, that you are wrong, and it DID happen and IS possible. Do you think it's easy? I would expect it to be pretty draining. How many people, working how hard, do you think it would take to search even a reasonable area of land for something/someone you don't know the location of?
Now can you see why it wouldn't be the "ultimate weapon"? you could use it to confirm suspicions, or bits of info you acquire from other sources.
Also, as an aside, it's possible that all the people taking part are restricted in what they can say, and who they can talk to. They may not be allowed to submit to non-governmental, proper scientific testing (TV shows don't really count)
And it's kinda different to telepathy. In fact, i'd be more willing to believe in remote viewing than "proper" telepathy. Telepathy is mind-reading, right? the only mind-reading i believe in at present is that kind Derren Brown uses - ultra-clever, using facial/body cues, and lightning-fast reasoning. It's veerrrry clever, verging on the spooky, but you know there's a method that can be learned, if you have the time and the knowledge and the practise.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: newjon]
    #4235841 -

um, I never said anything about using it as an 'ultimate weapon'.. I said that was their intentions and it didn't work. Because you can't use it like that, as you just said.
Also, telepathy is not mind-reading. It is willfull communication between two or more minds.. I would call it soul communication, that occurs on the subconscious level. There's no mind reading about it.. one only shares what they want to. I don't think it has anything to do with faces, since I have had telepathic encounters with people far away, in other rooms, etc. There's no special trick you have to learn. And so much can be communicated, pictures, sounds, feelings.. not just words and whatever. Telepathy is something completely different than this face reading. Maybe related, but completely different.


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Re: Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #4235934 -

Yeah, maybe because the JREF prize is unwinnable. They hold all the cards.

Of course it's unwinable; that's because mystical powers don't exist.

You and JREF agree in writing, in advance, on exactly what you will demonstrate and exactly what constitutes a Win. There is no interpretation, and every detail is fixed on paper and agreed to by both parties before the test begins.

--

Here's an example protocol:

You claim to be able to predict the roll of a dice.

A dice will be rolled inside a cage (not by hand), in full view of the JREF and the applicant 10 times. Before each roll, the applicant will write the number predicted on paper. After 10 rolls, a Win will be awarded if the applicant was correct 8 or more times.

That is the entire protocol. You will either do what you say or not. If you do, you get the money. That's it.

In 40 years, nobody has done what they said they would do.

This isn't complicated, and your evasion rather than demonstration is par for the course.

and a loose set of rules

A loose set of rules proves nothing in the test and too many people have tried to cheat the JREF for the rules to be anything but rigid.

Besides, why do you need loose rules to demonstrate your powers if they are for real?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (05/30/05 08:30 AM)

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Re: Consciousness [Re: newjon]
    #4235941 -

The programme stopped because it wasn't economic.

OK, look at what you're saying here. This doesn't make sense.

The US spends a half trillion on defense. If it were possible to peek inside the secret north Korean nuclear development program, how much would that be worth?

Psychic powers trump nuclear bombs because we'd know in advance where the enemy's bombs are, the current state of their defenses, which way each bomb was pointed, the location of their leaders. Do you not think that the ability to peek into North Korea right now would be worth some funding? How about during the Cold War with the Soviets.

Do you not see that if the government studies into this issue had found the slightest evidence that it worked, it would be the Manhattan Project all over again in a race to be the first to weaponsize these powers.

Some claim that these powers can't be used for evil; alright, how about for defense? If the government had found any inkling that this works at all, it would be mega-funded overnight to protect us from another 9/11.

Instead, it's relegated to late night pseudo-science TV shows, and Las Vegas rolls merrily along secure in the knowledge that nobody will ever guess the roulette wheel any better than can be accounted for by chance. :confused:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (05/30/05 07:25 AM)

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Shroomism]
    #4235945 -

So you're telling me you've never once in your life had a spiritual experience? Everything is all cold hard logic?

I never have. Other than the main five I believe in a sense that certain people share. It's the little things. Like "feeling" someone looking at you or behind you. Staring at someone and they turn to look at you even though they couldn't see you staring. The supposed mother-child link.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Diploid]
    #4236252 -

"All in your head" means nothing to me. Consciousness does not 'fill' or 'inhabit' the skull like water in a glass. Consciousness is defined differently by different models, and the materialistic medical models like Hebb's neural resonance are, like all the others (materialistic, psychic or spiritual) just models. Different consciousness events may originate from different sources. The brain may be a calculator/symbol interpreter par excellence, but it may also be a 'receiver' of consciousness that does not originate in one's own brain: the individual brain does not 'create' the universe, and the universe may be just as much psychical as it is physical. Therefore, since our bodies are 'woven' from the same fabric as the rest of space-time, we too are just as much psychical as physical.

BTW too any and all who might be reading this, psychic events and psychic powers are two different things. I have gone out on a limb before and described some of my own psychic experiences but I never had any 'control' over them and hence no 'powers' to speak of. This preoccupation about the immediate mundane application of psychic abilities to a casino reduces the implications of a conscious universe to a petty-minded desire to be wealthy. I'm not putting down wealth - I'm putting down the banality of money in a supposedly philosophical forum.

"THIS HAS NEVER ONCE HAPPENED" You do not know this. You are not aware of all events. That is part of the mystery of psychical events. Proximity to the event is part of it. Second and third party reporting, into popular media?! What, into reputable professional journals? Journals are scientific, and the scientific method requires manipulation of variables. Manipulation, as in the root for the Manipura Chakra, means control, the ego doing the manipulation based on logical sequence. Psychic events purportedly occur in a Way that is "acausal" (as Jung put it) and best described by a Chinese Taoist model of the universe, not a Cartesian, ego-based model. Forcing the scientific method on psychic phenomena doesn't negate the phenomena because the model doesn't evoke it. It is the wrong tool for the job. Pure Phenomenology may be the only means of observing such events with the understanding that one's ego has to be still for the job.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4236289 -

While you posit a well-thought argument, it seems you (and others here) are overlooking the fact that repeatability is oft-claimed; such as the spinning of a pinwheel through mind power or the claimed high accuracy of telepathic communication whilst tripping.

Last night, I once again saw a man I detest on the show "Unexplained Mysteries"; Mr. Von Prague; famed author and "spirit communicator". This parasite preys on the emotional vulnerability of others who have lost a loved one. He is booked for years in advance to do "readings".

Here are the salient points:

1. Von Prague will NOT do a reading under tightly controlled conditions.

2. Millions believe 100% he is for "real".

3. These millions are all in error. How do I know this? Because his "readings" are vague and can be replicated by many stage magicians.

4. With people so easily deceived (but not lying), why should anyone believe other's stories knowing the penchant for humans to be tricked or jump to conclusions?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4236498 -

I don't presume anyone to believe my own reported experiences according to any explanation that I supply (which is why I name different possible explanations). I am simply reporting what occurred to my consciousness, to the very best of my recollection. My reports are not fabricated, and I will not become dogmatic about the explanations. I remain (yep, my favorite word) - phenomenological about them.

Now, as to the psychic you named, as well as all of those 'christian' faith healers like Benny Hinn (Benny Hill was more healing to me when I was in the hospital years ago  :laugh:), we both know that they work just like stage magicians. Any of these things performed on stage, for TV audiences are bogus - that is my bias at any rate. I grew up watching The Amazing Randi on NYC TV's show Wonderama, and like Harry Houdini's exposure of fraud, I'm all for it.
I'm all for John Edwards (or whatever his name is) to be abducted by aliens for 'The Douchebag of the Universe Award.'

When events that contradict the usual 'rules of reality' occur, they will be received differently by different people. If you 'heard' my thoughts and repeated them to me verbatim, I'd be surprised (not shocked) and delighted (even if embarrassed)! Particularly if it was Swami who did this. I would not be shocked because already it exists in my world-view as a rare but real possibility. I would be delighted because it would give a great skeptic a great opportunity for an expanded paradigm. I would also be delighted because to me such an event would register as the grace of GOD. Of course, I don't know how you would register the event. If not met with simple skepticism, as just a coincidence (marginalizing it completely), it might be rather disconcerting. On the other hand, like the hunter in 'Harry and the Hendersons,' you might stop trying to kill the elusive thing, and begin a life of seeking to observe the reality  :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4236502 -

I recall reading somewhere - I think it was in the memoirs of the physicist Richard Feynmann - that a sensation of the centre of consiousness being displaced away from the head to other regions of the body is a common theme in isolation tank experiences.  Feynman (I'm pretty sure it was him) had embarked upon a series of isolation tank sessions because he was interested in altered states of consciousness, but was wary of hallucinogens.  He didn't want to upset the machinery of his genius, or something.  Anyway, after several hours in an isolation tank,  he had the impression of drifting into his elbow.

Sounds cool but I'm not sure it tells us anything important.

As for people actually leaving their bodies and floating around as some kind of disembodied spirit...  :lol:

It's so depressingly predictable that Diploid, after neatly justifying his skeptical stance on astral projection, gets asked "So you've never had a spritual experience?  Everything is cold hard logic?" 

The tired presumption being that disbelieving in 'paranormal phenomena' is a symptom of a non-spiritual engagement with life.

This is offensive and stupid. 

Like many other 'skeptics', I find that each passing moment of consciousness I experience in this beautiful, complex, ingenious, sublime and tantalizingly mysterious universe is a spiritual experience. 

You do not need ghosts, gods, or otherwise disembodied spirits to qualify an experience as being 'spiritual'.  That is, not unless you are an extremely boring person who can't think of other ways to be spiritually enriched.

Furthermore, there need be nothing cold or hard about logic.  In one sense, logic is refined spiritual transfiguration.  A conciousness entering into the most profound dialogue with the context that gave rise to it.  This can be an immensely creative process.  What is not magical about understanding? 

Yes, it may be that is it not the role of logic to explain the quality of consciousness itself that is at the heart of our experience of life.  But this has nothing to do with the paranormal.  Nothing at all.

I don't believe in the paranormal, and yet I live in a permanent state of spiritual rapture at the world around and inside me, a world I comprehend primarily through scientific rationalization.  Would you then call me a hardened skeptic and claim I am missing out on a deeper experience of the universe? 

Let me tell you who is really missing out, in a spiritual sense.  People who only perceive logic as 'cold and hard' are missing out.  People who are blind to the unfolding revelation of reality as it becomes scientifically comprehendable to us as the most extraordinarily awe-inspiring entity of power and elegance imaginable, and who are blind not because they are mentally retarded or brainwashed or culturally biased or misinformed or ill-educated, but blind because they think there is something less cold and less hard to be gained from a version universe that has ghosts and spirits zooming around in it.  The same people, in my experience, who spend concerning amounts of their lives talking unverifiable shit about 'energy'. 

It is not these people who are the spiritually impoverished? 

I urge everyone to be open to the spiritual richness of the unhaunted, untelepathic, ungarbled universe, in which nothing is everyday, nothing is mundane, and every little atom has the freshness of revelation.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: pluteus]
    #4236590 -

hrm.. I don't recall labelling disbelief in paranormal phenomena a non-spiritual engagement. Nor did I say all logic is cold and hard.

No, you do not need ghosts, gods or disembodies spirits for an experience to be spiritual, and I never said such. I am a spiritual being having a human experience, so for me every experience is spiritual.

And as far as logic goes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, so long as it is balanced with the OTHER hemisphere of the brain, the emotional/intuitive aspect. Logic is best served to explain reality when fully balanced and in harmony with the rest of the mind.

But all realities are valid. I was merely asking a question based on my own subjective observations, and I didn't get an answer. I don't need ghosts and spirits zooming around in my version of the universe to live a fulfilling life, but they are there nonetheless. Are you telling me that my reality is invalid? I do not expect a skeptic to believe when I share my 'paranormal' experiences, but then again.. I do not share them to make skeptics believe.

I say all of life is sacred, from the most insignificant speck to the endless macrocosm. Thus, all of life can be a spiritual experience, if you let it. It will be regardless, since we are all spiritual beings living a human existence.. it is just a matter of how one chooses to perceive it. I could shut off all of my creativity and emotion and just live in a rigid thought pattern of reality. But that's not for me. I choose to live my life based on my experiences, and sure, I make mistakes, but I learn from them. However, I consider my experiences to be valid, and if you are trying to tell me otherwise, well good luck.


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Re: Consciousness [Re: pluteus]
    #4236604 -

Ah, a breath of fresh air. I hope you stick around.  :thumbup:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4236682 -

When events that contradict the usual 'rules of reality' occur, they will be received differently by different people.

I suppose, but my point is that ordinary things are all-too-frequently misperceived as having just bent the rules of reality, when in fact, no such thing occured. Yet these people dance up and down telling of the (non) miracle.

I am not skeptic because of stubborness as some suggest, but because I am not aware of having seen the rules of reality bent, even when actively searching for such evidence.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4236696 -

But if reality is subjective, there are no rules. Only perception.


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Re: Consciousness [Re: Swami]
    #4236719 -

Acknowledged. And I do not simply 'want' paranormal, magickal, miraculous reality-benders to be true, I want to know the Truth of the discrepancies that I have experienced.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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