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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965230 -

Diploid said:
What you cannot see it's that it doesn't matter the choice, the choice is one.

Well, if there is only one choice, then you're discussing a different scenario than I am and since there is only one choice, there is no free will involved.

My question, which you haven't answered, is:

Let's say that God knows the traveler will go left. Is it then possible for the traveler to go right? And if it is possible for the traveler to go right, then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler does go right?


No. Because the traveler never wanted to go right in the first place, his choice was left. Nothing happens to his omniscience.

I think your mind is playing tricks on you...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965236 -

Diploid said:
What you can't see is that it doesn't matter if he knows the eventual outcome that was your eventual choice.

Why won't you answer my question?


I did but you just don't get it.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965249 -

No. Because the traveler never wanted to go right in the first place,

I didn't ask anything about what the traveler wanted. You're answering a question I have not asked.

I did but you just don't get it.

No you didn't. Let me try once more. Please indulge me and answer each question. If you can't answer, then I'll accept that and end this discussion since it can't go forward any farther without dialog.

So, given that God knows the traveler will go left:

Question 1: Is it possible for the traveler to go right?

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is 'yes', then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler does, in fact, make the choice to go right?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965299 -

I get your point. The way you see it is that you could change the choice if free will would be real, regardless of God's omniscience. What you don't get is that there is only one choice, either right or left. You can take your time to try to "trick" God's omniscience but in the end there is only one choice to be picked, regardless of the option. He would know the final option. He is not baffled with right or left like you are because he knows what you will pick; nevertheless it was your choice.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/24/05 02:39 PM)

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965305 -

Do you still want me to answer your question? It's not going to change a thing.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965316 -

if "he" created me, knowing what choice i would make, then he created me to make that choice. thus i was made for a singular purpose, which wasnt to make a choice.

"IF"


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965319 -

What you don't get is that there is only one choice

Well, you're discussing a different scenario. Let's talk about that one later. For now, I'm talking about a scenario where there are two choices, a fork in the road.

Can you answer the question in the scenario under discussion?

So, given that God knows the traveler will go left:

Question 1: Is it possible for the traveler to go right? (hint, this is a yes/no question)  :smirk:

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is 'yes', then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler does, in fact, make the choice to go right? (please restrict your answer to what happens to God's omniscience only)


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965381 -

Diploid said:
What you don't get is that there is only one choice

Well, you're discussing a different scenario. Let's talk about that one later. For now, I'm talking about a scenario where there are two choices, a fork in the road.

Can you answer the question in the scenario under discussion?

So, given that God knows the traveler will go left:

Question 1: Is it possible for the traveler to go right? (hint, this is a yes/no question)  :smirk:

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is 'yes', then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler does, in fact, make the choice to go right? (please restrict your answer to what happens to God's omniscience only)


It is not a matter of god knowing. It is a matter of your choice. Please get that through your thick head. :laugh:

This is like asking me if you eventually decide to pick left, can you pick right? It is just plain stupid... regardless God's omniscience. Because your choice is left.

Q1 = NO, because God knows what you will decide eventually... BY YOUR FREE WILL.

Q2 = First of all it's just a stupid question. Look how you even construct it. It's ridiculous. If the answer of question 2 is right then the answer of question 1 was right in the first place. His omniscience remains unaffected as your free will.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965383 -

re-read my statement.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: BleaK]
    #3965395 -

BleaK said:
if "he" created me, knowing what choice i would make, then he created me to make that choice. thus i was made for a singular purpose, which wasnt to make a choice.

"IF"


OMG you guys....

We are all part of one and the same. Your choices created who you are today. God (the absolute) did not force you to chose. He does not force you to suffer. You do. You do by your own decisions. You could think of it this way...We are God lost...finding himself.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965441 -

So?  :blush:  :tongue:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/24/05 03:15 PM)

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965455 -

youve changed the debate.

the idea was that god and man were seperate.
god, has been here forever, then he created man.

if u want to argue that we are the same, then we'll need to change the figures in the free will debate.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: BleaK]
    #3965502 -

BleaK said:
if "he" created me, knowing what choice i would make, then he created me to make that choice. thus i was made for a singular purpose, which wasnt to make a choice.

"IF"


What I'm telling to you is that he did not make you to make the choice. You made the choice. His omniscience changes nothing. It is still YOUR choice, not his. If it was his choice you wouldn't be here in the first place.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965541 -

I have adapted my explanations to all your conditions...but now it seems like you've run out of conditions...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965570 -

he did make me to make the choice.
if he made me.
and he knew before he made me.
then he made me knowing, and thus for the purpose of, whatever he knew.

if he already knew wat i would do before he created me. then during his creation of me he endowed intrinsically in me the choice he knew i would make.

understand?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: BleaK]
    #3965613 -

Just as you can't be aware that something exists if you are not conscious of it, you can't exists if God isn't conscious of you. Do you see the implications of this?

He is the infinite, he is the absolute. Nothing can't escape him since all is part of him, nothing is beyond his reach as you assume. Past, Present and Future are irrelevant. He is the absolute!

I hope this is clear!


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965616 -

duality is a bitch...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965657 -

Question 1: Is it possible for the traveler to go right?

Q1 = NO

If it's not possible for the traveler to go right, then he cannot exercise free will to go right and therefore has no free will.

This is like asking me if you eventually decide to pick left, can you pick right?

Sure I can. I can choose left while having the option to choose right. But according to your answer to Q1 above, I cannot chose right, therefore, I cannot have free will to so choose. You can't have it both ways.

Q2 = First of all it's just a stupid question.

Alright, when someone is cornered with a demonstration that they are contradicting themselves and have to resort to attacking the question rather than answer it, I bow out of the discussion. :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965673 -

hahahahaha i'm sorry but i give up...you just don't get it...and by the way that was not my complete answer...you just put what proves your point...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965682 -

and by the way that was not my complete answer

It was a yes/no question. You answered my question, then went on to answer some other question that I didn't ask, so I didn't quote it.

My second question you didn't answer at all.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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