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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Sub-strain compatibility
    #3913769 - 03/13/05 11:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm posting this here because it seems like more of an advanced question than a basic question; and here it is. If, for example, a person obtained B+ from 2 different sources, would all of the mycelium be compatible in the sense that it would grow together when cased?
Thanks


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Sub-strain compatibility [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3914351 - 03/14/05 02:04 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

My guess is yes. In fact we've seen a few grows lately where guys have deliberately mixed different strains in the same casing and had very nice results. By different, I mean such as EQ being mixed with B+ in the same substrate. The conventional wisdom in the community is the strains will 'fight' each other until one wins out. This does not appear to be the case. More experimentation is needed.


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: Sub-strain compatibility [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #3914378 - 03/14/05 02:11 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Fascinating.


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InvisibleKlingonFromUranus
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It's funny you bring this up 'cause......... [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3914904 - 03/14/05 04:28 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I did this this and will post results with pics soon! I scraped two B+ prints into one syringe and inoc as usual. It grew some very funky mycelium. Like two distinct myceliums growing "on top" of each other if you can imagine this. Very strange. Seems to me that either:
1) one of the 2 prints might not have been B+ or that
2) they were both B+ originally but the spores were eventually traded/spread about and grown for many generations in different environments (substrate, fruiting method, temperatures, moisture/humidity levels, etc.) and over time could have possibly acclimated or evolved into separate, incompatible "substrains" of the original B+.
I must say that IMO the first idea is more likely.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Sub-strain compatibility [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3914967 - 03/14/05 04:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

What Stamets writes:

"Theoretically, the germination of spores in mass creates multitudes of strains that will compete with one another for nutrients. This has been long accepted as one of the Ten Commandments of Mushroom Culture. Scientists in China, whose knowledge had not been contaminated by such preconceptions first developed spore-mass inoculation techniques to an industrial level. Only recently have Western mycologist recognized that a large community of spore matings behaves quite differently than paired individuals. San Antonio and Hanners (1984) are some of the first Western mycologists to realize that grain spawn of Oyster mushrooms could be effectively created via spore-mass inoculation.
The most aggressive strains out-race the least aggressive strains to capture the intended habitat.
Recent studies have shown that these aggressive strains overpower and invade the cellular network of competing strains.
Dr. Alan Rayner (1988) in studies at the University of Bath described this form of genetic theft as "non-self fusions" between genetically different mycelial systems within the same species. This ability to adapt has made fungi one of the most successful examples of evolution in the biological arena.
Spore-mass fermentation techniques are not yet widely used by North American or European cultivators. Concern for preserving strain stability, lack of experience, equipment, and intellectual conflicts are contributing factors. In mushroom culture, intransigence to new ideas has prevailed, often because the slightest variation from the norm has resulted in expensive failures. Since the health of any economy is based on its diversity, the emergence of organically minded gourmet mushroom growers is creating a fertile intellectual habitat for many innovative technologies."


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Sub-strain compatibility [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #3920225 - 03/15/05 10:48 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
My guess is yes. In fact we've seen a few grows lately where guys have deliberately mixed different strains in the same casing and had very nice results. By different, I mean such as EQ being mixed with B+ in the same substrate. The conventional wisdom in the community is the strains will 'fight' each other until one wins out. This does not appear to be the case. More experimentation is needed.




From these experiments I have only seen very small mushrooms spread and mixed throughout the casing with poor yeilds. To my knowledge, this is always what would be thought to happen. Unlike if you inject two strains from spores into the same jar...then a stronger strain could colonize the jar quicker or they could both germinate and meet in the middle.

I'd be interested in this whole mixing of substrains thing but honestly...while I think it would work I have always had better results when NON mixing multispore jars. I usually mix them anyway, it doesn't really hurt them...but I definitely see single jar casings, single jar spawned to bulk, or multi jars from a single isolate working much better then 2 jars from multispore mixed. More inconsistent results.... It might not be due to the mixing, rather a coincidence...not really sure yet, just something I've noticed.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: Sub-strain compatibility [Re: Land_Crab]
    #3920703 - 03/15/05 01:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe. If the two substrains(dikaryons) that you put together happen to be compatable.

There is a huge difference between mixing two dikaryons and mixing hundreds or thousands via a multispore inoculation. The more dikaryons present in the jar, the more chance anastamosis will occur between compatible mycelium.

The same rules apply across a petri dish. By the time you see growth on a petri from a multispore germination with lots of spores, a shit load of anastamosis has already occured between compatable DIKARYONS that originated from compatable monokaryons. Then you start to see the seperate colonies establish themselves into sectors. These sectors are not compatable on agar or in a jar of spawn, or in a casing.

Compatable monokaryons mate to form dikaryons. Compatable dikaryons undergo anastamosis to form a larger network of mycelium. They can branch with themselves, or with other compatable dikaryons.


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Sub-strain compatibility [Re: Anno]
    #3920857 - 03/15/05 02:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I noticed this with the B+ i used to use (if anyone has a print from one of our old trades (or its kin) I'd love a trade to get one back). Multispore innoculations were incredibly predictable. I believed it was more of a selected uniformity than one substrain overtaking the others. Seeing that quote is making me think it over again now though...


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