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Anonymous
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how...  [Re: Middleman]  1
#652848 - 05/30/02 07:25 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you visit the PF site and read through his information, you will see what his theory of SPORE RACES within cubensis is about.
As I stated, his proof is a non related plant pathogen that eats living trees. hence has aquired physiological races, within a species. This means it has STRAINS that can't breed with eachother, they are incompatible. This makes them by definition races and not Strains anymore. Some may actually classify them as seperate species, which is probably technically accurate, but would create TAXANOMIC nightmares!!!
The majority of plant pathogens share a common host , but have adapted RACES that prefer a single host, that others have not adapted to eating. This variation is significant enough that it has effected the genes of the RACE. It can no longer breed with other races, and could be considered a seperate species.
I have seen no cubensis eat living trees, plants. Every Strain I have seen, will eat a wide variety of substrates, and all of them can eat the same stuff. Nothing in the composition of the digested manure, of cows anywhere in the world, should result in RACE developement. The manure doesn't fight back against predation!!!
Culturally, you could probably create a RACE of cubensis. And if anyone does it, it will probably be the PF. Continuous growth on the same exact substrate, over and over and over, and over, for year after year, could probably turn a prefrence into a neccesity. But with the countless cultivators out there, and many of them using alternative substrates, you could probably fix that problem in a few generations, breeding PF from multiple substrates, back to PF from BRF. Maybe not though.
There is certainly insufficient evidence to suggest that any of these STRAINS are actually RACES, by the definition he is using. And certainly insufficient evidence to suggest their are multiple species making up the single species cubensis. Time will tell, with the growth in this hobby, and the quality of it's practitioners, some folks might actually take the time that is needed to apply the information that is out there. PUT IT TO THE TEST.
Monokaryon to Monokaryon. Breed them, fruit the resulting dikaryons, and germinate and fruit the resulting spores!!! Hopefully they will have LABELED properly, and been highly anal in their procedure, and note taking. Hopefully they will be kind enough to share with the OMC.
Then of course, there will be the important component of BELIEF. We will have to take the word of the experimenter, until others REPRODUCE it.
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 indicaz
Lysol God
 
Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 580
Loc: My Chair
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#653470 - 05/30/02 11:58 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Teonan, I just have one question whats your IQ dood?
like a walking myco dictionary 
great post
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BlueJay
Pan Man
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 307
Loc: Christs' peace patrol
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#653766 - 05/30/02 01:52 PM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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wow...I started this thread and my old hand took care of all scientiffic mumbo jumbo.....Common sense after knowing you need two spores two make a myc strand...just mix the spores then take many prints..cross these back to the one strain you want most dominate.. Take many prints and see if the high and certain growth characstics are there.. Keep both A & B pure also and your new C strain.........Big man out.....Peace always......J
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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#653907 - 05/30/02 03:03 PM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Everything that Teonan has said is true. Races, pathovars, and varieties of plant pathogenic fungi are created due to evolution of preferences to particular plant species.
However, it also true that supposedly, many of the strains available to us are from very separate parts of the world. Having barriers as large as oceans and mountain ranges in between different and genetically isolated fungi could very easily lead to sexual non-compatibility and there for the creation of new species / sub-species / what ever you want to call it. This is already noted in phylogenetic studies on well known fungi such as Shitake.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#654166 - 05/30/02 05:14 PM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shitake is a Saprophyte, but it feeds on Varying species of TREES. A RACE that feeds off of Oak, may not feed on Beech. This is a real difference, physiological, that has lead to incompatibility.
You are comparying apples to oranges. The possibility is always there for mutation, I just don't think it has happened with the cubensis to the extent that it has RACES. The only exception is the closely related P. subcubensis. It is however considered a different species!!!
Time will tell.
Point me to a cubensis that has this type of substrate specificity!!! An absolute intolerance for a substrate that another cubensis will eat.
The closest is PF, but it isn't absolute!!!
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canid
irregular meat sprocket
Registered: 02/26/02
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Loc: looking for zeebras, n. c...
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#654492 - 05/30/02 07:53 PM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Teonan, wouldn't it also be (hypotheticaly) possible for hybridization to occur between seperate but (geneticaly) similar species assuning compatible mating types? i know this would be far less likely to produce fertile, or even fruitible cultures but i think it's interesting.
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ] 1
#654715 - 05/31/02 12:54 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, the research into differences in shitakes did not mention substrate specificty as the basis of the difference. I am not comparing apples to oranges (apples and orange are quite similar actually especially if you are look at UV absorbance spectrum), especially if you insist on arguing that subtrate specificity is the main driving force behind the creation of races, strains, subspecies, or whatever. Do imagine the elephant dung is exactly like cow dung is exactly like horse dung, is exactly like rhinocerous dung. I doubt it, each likely has its own moisutre contents, ratios of undigested to digested material, nitrogen content, bacterial populations and so on. Not to mention that each animal is likely to feed on different substrates. These differences could be as large as differences that exist between oak and beech. Thus a population that grows almost primarily on cow dung could differ substanitally from one that grows on elephant dung.
Secondly, taking something you said earlier, P. cubensis has been spread all over the world. It is a simple fact that geographic separation and the lack of ability to interbreed leads to speciation. This is well documented in fungi. This is especially true if the founding population is of limited genetic diversity or depth. The tendancy of a isolated population derived from a shallow gene pool to form new species is a generally accepted theory called genetic drift.
Surely, as you say, in the case of or arguement, nothing will be proven unitl some one does the research. It is too bad that most researchers would not touch this baby with a ten foot pole due to certain legal issues in our country. We cannot liberalize our research until we liberalize our drug law.
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Waldarbeiter
can you eat it?
Registered: 03/07/02
Posts: 189
Loc: woods of lower bavaria
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#655217 - 05/31/02 07:04 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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I got idea:
Take a mushroom of strain A, clone it on a petri dish.
Then, take a nice shroom of strain B, clone it on another petri dish.
Third step: inoculate a fresh petri dish w?th mycelium from dish A and dish B.
Let it grow together. *Maybe* you have a "new" strain then.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#658017 - 06/01/02 06:49 PM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that apples and oranges are very different plants. They don't interbreed either.
Genetic drift can lead to new species. So can overcoming secondary metabolite production in the food your are trying to eat. Lots of things can lead to mutation.
MY point was becasue one mushroom has developed races, doesn't mean all have. Cubensis might be a whole shit load of non interbreeding races, or a group of species. I don't know, but no one has posted any info that leads me to believe they are. I would love to see even the original Mating type study, but I haven't.
I just dislike people posting that they are non-mating, RACES, or a group of species, without proof.
Didn't mean to offend with the apples and oranges remark!! Was just an expression. I do think that races within mushroom species is strongly related to the food they are trying to eat. Certainly when the food fight's back!!!
Do cubensis grow in Rhino shit? Anyone got some spores?
Peace
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r05c03
The Slug Scourge
Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 383
Loc: Indiana, US
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#658389 - 06/02/02 03:23 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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No no offense. The apple and oragnes comment I made was from an actual tongue-in-cheek research paper where some one tried to justify the "apples and oranges" theory. So he analysed the juice with a UV spec and found that the UV absorbtion spectra were nearly indistiguishable. Thus he concluded that apples and orages were not really that different. Its just jokes, totally out of context though so it probably came out wrong.
At anyrate. Yeah none of this stuff is proven, but most legitmate researchers with the means and resources will not do the work. Can't blame them, really. But both mating and phylogenetics could easily answer (and probably make more questions) most of the interrelatedness and evolutionary relatedness queestions that have been asked on this board. Bummer.
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_Lucid_
journeyman
Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 155
Loc: no-mans land
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: r05c03]
#658624 - 06/02/02 06:43 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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definitly some interesting stuff, way over my head being more of a physics person and less bio, actualy I have never even taken a bio course. Well, time to find the advil, my head is hurting, ill have to reread this thread again in the future, maybe ill get some of it.
Teonan, if everyone else hadnt of been like yeah, thats it, i would have just assumed you were trippen when you wrote that
dikaryons, monokaryons, Anastomosis, OH MY! 
hey, i wonder if its posible to get that eye licking icon i have for my post icon to be come of those instant smileys so i can put a bunch of eyelickers in my posts. 
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The believer is happy, the doubter is wise
- Hungarian proverb
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 ralphster44
collector
Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 4,657
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#1153636 - 12/19/02 03:39 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by administrator.
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For your safety and security, we have a Secure Website.
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i am e goldstein
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 Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1153660 - 12/19/02 03:48 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!
Edited by i am e goldstein (12/19/02 03:50 AM)
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Raadt
nicht
Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 2,107
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#1153756 - 12/19/02 04:21 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do you have any evidence of what you are talking about? Or are you just making assumptions? heh
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Raadt
-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--
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daussaulit
Forgetful
Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ralphster44]
#1153867 - 12/19/02 04:55 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Before you posted this thread was over 6 months old. just thought I might point that out.
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G a n j a
Pictish and proud
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 7,860
Loc: Zone ate
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: daussaulit] 1
#1154408 - 12/19/02 07:47 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Glad it got resurected
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er
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#1154700 - 12/19/02 09:04 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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n/a
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Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ralphster44]
#1154730 - 12/19/02 09:18 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Cross poster. 
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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SixCee
keep rolling
Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 3,720
Loc: US, Chicago
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Skikid16]
#1155217 - 12/19/02 12:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Golden Creeper
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ralphster44]
#1155649 - 12/19/02 03:28 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Monokaryon mating is the way to go. Not random spore mixtures of two different strains.
The true hybrid strain is going to come from the SPORES of the original Dikaryon formed via anastamosis or monokaryon mating. Until spores occur, the life cycle of the fungus is one of cooperation between two SEPERATE nuclei housed under a single roof(hyphae) acting in a coordinated effort. The spores produced from this coordinated effort, will be the hybrid SPORES.
Hybridization frequency is greatest between monokaryons. Succesful hybridization is more then likely going to occur in isolation, as opposed to concentration. A single germinated spore from one strain placed next to a single germinated spore from the other strain. Doing this with as many monokaryons as you can isolate from each strain.
Hybridization occuring between different species of fungi is highly unlikely to occur this way.
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