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OfflineBlueJay
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Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how...
    #648961 - 05/28/02 05:26 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Most PPL think you can cross two cube strains by inocullating a jar on each side and the myc will meet and produce fruit with most genetics WRONG... the myc just meets and joins into the network. The fruits produced will be either A or B not combined charaistics.....You must go deeper....We all know that spores must combine together to make one strand of myc,some even need as many as four different spores to combine to form one myc strand.... Make your syringe with strain A spores & strain B spores. When germinate some will have both genetics already into that myc.....


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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
    #649003 - 05/28/02 06:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Have you tried this??


I would like to cross Pink Buffalo and Penis Envy, I would call it Pink Penis or Buffalo Penis, not sure which.


Good luck


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Offlineaural
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
    #649048 - 05/28/02 07:05 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The difficulty is not in crossing 2 strains-it is in knowing that a given colony has resulted from a cross and is not simply the result of a mating of 2 spores from a given strain.

If you mix spores from 2 strains in a syringe,sure, some will cross,but you are going to have a mass of mycelium that is A,B and AB.


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Offlinekingpin0397
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
    #649060 - 05/28/02 07:13 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i'm goin to try it


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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #649242 - 05/28/02 09:31 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineIowa Rasta
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: vatoloco]
    #649277 - 05/28/02 09:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i dont think it would work


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
    #649356 - 05/28/02 10:43 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Bluejay, I think you need to go deeper than that...;)


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Invisiblestrang

Registered: 04/23/01
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: angryshroom]
    #649398 - 05/28/02 11:09 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

seems like someone would have stumbled upon that before.. i dont think its that easy or vendors would be releasing new strains daily..


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Invisiblephrozendata
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... *DELETED* [Re: strang]
    #649640 - 05/28/02 01:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by phrozendata


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Offlineindicaz
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: phrozendata]
    #649950 - 05/28/02 06:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I dont know where this actually touches on fact, I thought if 2 different strains of the same species come in contact they will compete and the stronger one will over take the weaker and that is why you cannot cross strains...

What scientific proof is there to back this claim? I find this interesting i would like to know more..

later
indicaz


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Anonymous

Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: indicaz]
    #650041 - 05/28/02 07:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

A hybrid would result from the mating of a monokaryon of one strain with a monokaryon of another strain. This paired Dikaryon would be a hybrid between the two strains. The true success of the hybrid would be if it produced fruits that had spores. Only at this stage would the true hybrid STRAIN be accomplished. No genetic information is exchanged between the two strains until their seperate haploid nuclei have fused and then undergone meiosis. Recombination would then occur between the two seperate strains forming a third strain. It's offspring(spores) would be new combinations of the two donor strains.

Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.

Anastomosis occurs at a higher frequency between substrains of an individual strain. I.E. between different spore matings resulting from a single syringe. When you multispore innoculate a jar of substrate, this is Happening with a high degreee of frequency. A dominant mating will fuse with other matings, incorporating them into it's mycelial network. It can even rewire a false mating into a good mating. It can overcome an incompatible mating, by replacing one of the nuclei within another strand with one of it's own.

A Fertile dikaryon A1B1 A2B2 can run into an infertile A1B2 A2B2 and replace the A1B2 nuclei with a A1B1 nuclei. Creating a fertile A1B1 A2B2 dikaryon that joins the colony. Subsequent fusion could replace the A2B2 nuclei with it's own A2B2 nuclei, which would completely rewire the hyphal strand to it's exact genetic makeup. Or it could leave it partially rewired.

This process can be seen on a Nutrient agar plate. Not all substrains within a strain will fuse, some are completely incompatible. There will be a zone of zero growth between them on the petriplate. They just will not fuse.

In essence hybrids can be formed between substrains of a single strain or between different strains of the same species.

This is the theory, this has been scientifically demonstrated on other species of Basidiomycetes that have been studied!!! I know of know studies that have been done on CUBENSIS, relating to this information. But it must exist. Because it has been Clearly stated in several texts, that Psilocybe cubensis is heterothallic and tetrapolar. And all the above information relates to that type of breeding system in the Basidiomycetes.

You ask why this is not being done, because not much MONEY goes into this type of research in the legitamite world.

Anastomosis has been studied extensively in the edible mushroom world. Agaricus bisporus is homothallic and two spored, not four. Each and every spore it produces already contains both haploid nuclei to make a dikaryon. But fusion(Anastamosis) between these dikaryons produces more productive Dikaryons!!! The majority of High yielding bisporous are a result of HYBRIDIZATION within a STRAIN or between Strains of this species. So if it occurs between DIKARYONS of this species,it has been viewed occuring between monokaryons of other species, WHY WOULD anyone Doubt that it can occur within the Species Psilocybe cubensis.

The major factor to overcome with mating monokaryons is the proximity with which they germinate. Spores tend to clump. So simply placing spores of two different strains in a single syringe, will not overcome the clumping of spores of like strains, and hence their close proximity to each other upon germination.

Probably still occurs, when injected into a substrate, and some of the resulting fruitbodies might actually be hybrids, between Strains, and the resulting offspring (spores) from that mushroom will be different looking then both the mushroom it came from, and all of the mushrooms from both the Donor strains.

Much easier to DILUTE spores from each strain seperately, plate them, isolate slower growing monokaryons, and try mating as many of these from each strain as possible, with as many as possible from the other strain. All matings that fruit, are hybrids!!! If they produce spores, you now have a new STRAIN. Simply cloning the original matings that fruited, will be a Hybrid as well, but not a true hybrid, becasue their has been NO Recombination between the two strains, NO MIXING OF GENES. There has simply been a successful coexistence of two haploid nuclei, one from each Strain, acting independently, but together to create fruits!!! The real genetic swap occurs during Karyogomay and the subsequent meiosis.


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InvisibleRoadkill
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ] * 1
    #650288 - 05/28/02 11:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Very good post Teonan!!

one of the better posts that I have read lately.


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You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


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PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Roadkill]
    #650318 - 05/28/02 11:55 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Very very good post - I'm saving it. Better explanation than in most books that I have.


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: zeronio]
    #650327 - 05/29/02 12:12 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ah yea...

Search engines in gear.... now where is that book (blowing off dust)... damm my 'scope is broke...

I really need to do more crank sometimes.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
    #650338 - 05/29/02 12:32 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Teonan, I didnt mean that deep.

lol, j/k thats some awsome information. Thanks a lot.


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Invisiblemycophreak
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Registered: 05/29/02
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
    #651104 - 05/29/02 12:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Mixing sporewater of two different cubensis genotypes usually results in plenty mycelium and no pinning. It is the most important test to find out if two strains are the same or not and first published at the fanaticus site.

The problem with Psilocybe cubensis is that it is not a real species, but a group of closely related species (a species complex). The species Psilocybe cubensis does not exist.

Mycophreak


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Invisiblemycophreak
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
    #651128 - 05/29/02 12:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Theonan wrote:

>Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different >Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.

I wonder if this can be considered a real hybrid - even if it happens between two differen strains. When two karyons meet they may exchange nuclei but the different nuclei do not reshuffle their genes until the moment of spore formation.

I have often wondered about that. Compared to humans it is as if fungi spend most of their lifetime in the same pre-embryonic state as an egg cell which is just penetrated by a sperm cell but of which the two nuclei have not been fused yet.

Mycophreak


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Anonymous

Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: mycophreak]
    #651816 - 05/29/02 06:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I have read the Fanaticus argument for spore races, and I don't think it is relevant for Psilocybe cubensis. His proof is a non related mushroom, that is a pathogen of living trees. The variation within that species is a result of it's adapting (Physiologically) to Plant defense compounds, it comes in contact with on the many different species of trees it eats. It attacks living trees!!! It must evolve specialized enzymes, structural features, etc.. to overcome this diversity. These changes require changes in it's genes. These changes are significant enough that they result in RACE developement. Compatibility is lost, to protect these differences. They are still labeled as the same species by taxonomists, and just refered to as RACES. Cubensis encounters none of these problems. Each STRAIN is able to feed on similar substrates, in similar environments. B+ will eat anything that GT, or EQ, will eat. The same cannot be said for the different races of Armillaria mellea. PF will eat anything as well, it just prefers the substance it has been eating for a very long time. It has a prefrence for it, but it is not limited to it. This does not make it a cultural or physiological Race. Isolate monokaryons of it and breed them with monokaryons of all the other Strains in circulation. YOU will be DISSAPOINTED to find that they do mate!!! P.cubensis is a single species that has been spread around the world, all of it's variation is related to the composition of the manure it fruits on, and the immediate suroundings(climate) it lives in. This is my opinion, and it is in disagreement with PF theory.

Comparing cubensis to Armillaria mellea is bad science, in my OPINION.

His other proof is related to injecting a mixed spore solution of two strains into a single substrate. This is not isolation of monokaryons to perform a compatibility study. As was stated, compatible spores closest to each other will mate first, these will then fuse with compatible dikaryons that are closest. Fusions will occur between a single STRAIN at a higher frequency then between strains.

Multisporing itself takes longer to reach maturity, add two different strains into the mix, and it will take longer. You want fast, you use isolated cultures of a single substrain.

Breeding experiments should start on a petri plate, not in a jar. In his test, a dominant strain could have just outcompeted the weaker strains, or just incorporated them into itself. The problem with testing that way, is YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. You are just making guesses.

Compatibility tests are done the same way BREEDING systems are determined. Via monokaryon isolation and breeding tests!!! Some one had to perform the REAL test to know that P. cubensis as a species is HETEROTHALLIC and TETRAPOLAR. Simply injecting spores into a substrate could never lead to that determination.


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OfflineShdwstr
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
    #652007 - 05/29/02 08:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Excellent post Teonan... now... How do we cross a Pan Trop with an Orissa to get some REALLY BIG kickass shrooms Heheheh


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 7,591
Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Shdwstr]
    #652224 - 05/29/02 10:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Hahaha Yaha!
...that's what i was just thinking.

mycophreak wrote:

"The problem with Psilocybe cubensis is that it is not a real species, but a group of closely related species (a species complex). The species Psilocybe cubensis does not exist."

please explain Further...





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