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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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2 different strains in one jar?
    #734631 - 07/09/02 07:17 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

I suppose this is the right forum to post this, if not forgive me :P

What would happen in 2 different strains were innoculated in 1 jar? Would the mycelia grow together and produce fruits of both strains or would there be some hybridization? Or could the strounger strain take over?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Invisiblephrozendata
Carpal Tunnel

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Re: 2 different strains in one jar? [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #734636 - 07/09/02 07:21 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

"Would the mycelia grow together and produce fruits of both strains or would there be some hybridization?"

Possible, but VERY rare.

"Or could the strounger strain take over?"

Maybe, but they may both grow and both fruit on their seperate halfs of the jar but never actually join. It's hard to tell for sure.

Here is a really good post concerning your thoughts:

Teonan
old hand



Reged: 02/08/01
Posts: 872

Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [re: indicaz]
05/28/02 11:31 PM () Edit Reply



A hybrid would result from the mating of a monokaryon of one strain with a monokaryon of another strain. This paired Dikaryon would be a hybrid between the two strains. The true success of the hybrid would be if it produced fruits that had spores. Only at this stage would the true hybrid STRAIN be accomplished. No genetic information is exchanged between the two strains until their seperate haploid nuclei have fused and then undergone meiosis. Recombination would then occur between the two seperate strains forming a third strain. It's offspring(spores) would be new combinations of the two donor strains.

Hybrids can also be formed by Anastomosis between two dikaryons of different Strains, but it will happen at Far less frequency then mating monokaryons.

Anastomosis occurs at a higher frequency between substrains of an individual strain. I.E. between different spore matings resulting from a single syringe. When you multispore innoculate a jar of substrate, this is Happening with a high degreee of frequency. A dominant mating will fuse with other matings, incorporating them into it's mycelial network. It can even rewire a false mating into a good mating. It can overcome an incompatible mating, by replacing one of the nuclei within another strand with one of it's own.

A Fertile dikaryon A1B1 A2B2 can run into an infertile A1B2 A2B2 and replace the A1B2 nuclei with a A1B1 nuclei. Creating a fertile A1B1 A2B2 dikaryon that joins the colony. Subsequent fusion could replace the A2B2 nuclei with it's own A2B2 nuclei, which would completely rewire the hyphal strand to it's exact genetic makeup. Or it could leave it partially rewired.

This process can be seen on a Nutrient agar plate. Not all substrains within a strain will fuse, some are completely incompatible. There will be a zone of zero growth between them on the petriplate. They just will not fuse.

In essence hybrids can be formed between substrains of a single strain or between different strains of the same species.

This is the theory, this has been scientifically demonstrated on other species of Basidiomycetes that have been studied!!! I know of know studies that have been done on CUBENSIS, relating to this information. But it must exist. Because it has been Clearly stated in several texts, that Psilocybe cubensis is heterothallic and tetrapolar. And all the above information relates to that type of breeding system in the Basidiomycetes.

You ask why this is not being done, because not much MONEY goes into this type of research in the legitamite world.

Anastomosis has been studied extensively in the edible mushroom world. Agaricus bisporus is homothallic and two spored, not four. Each and every spore it produces already contains both haploid nuclei to make a dikaryon. But fusion(Anastamosis) between these dikaryons produces more productive Dikaryons!!! The majority of High yielding bisporous are a result of HYBRIDIZATION within a STRAIN or between Strains of this species. So if it occurs between DIKARYONS of this species,it has been viewed occuring between monokaryons of other species, WHY WOULD anyone Doubt that it can occur within the Species Psilocybe cubensis.

The major factor to overcome with mating monokaryons is the proximity with which they germinate. Spores tend to clump. So simply placing spores of two different strains in a single syringe, will not overcome the clumping of spores of like strains, and hence their close proximity to each other upon germination.

Probably still occurs, when injected into a substrate, and some of the resulting fruitbodies might actually be hybrids, between Strains, and the resulting offspring (spores) from that mushroom will be different looking then both the mushroom it came from, and all of the mushrooms from both the Donor strains.

Much easier to DILUTE spores from each strain seperately, plate them, isolate slower growing monokaryons, and try mating as many of these from each strain as possible, with as many as possible from the other strain. All matings that fruit, are hybrids!!! If they produce spores, you now have a new STRAIN. Simply cloning the original matings that fruited, will be a Hybrid as well, but not a true hybrid, becasue their has been NO Recombination between the two strains, NO MIXING OF GENES. There has simply been a successful coexistence of two haploid nuclei, one from each Strain, acting independently, but together to create fruits!!! The real genetic swap occurs during Karyogomay and the subsequent meiosis.


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"There's only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving and that's your own self. So you have to begin there, not
outside, not on other people" - Aldous Huxley


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: 2 different strains in one jar? [Re: phrozendata]
    #734651 - 07/09/02 07:26 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Hey, cool. Thanks!! Thats a really interesting post.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Offlinegoatywoaty
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Registered: 04/11/02
Posts: 263
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Re: 2 different strains in one jar? [Re: phrozendata]
    #735888 - 07/10/02 09:12 AM (15 years, 21 days ago)

monokaryon

it said to isolate these guys, you would dilute the spores and use agar plates to isolat ethe slowest growing ones... are the lsowest growing always neccearily monokaryonic fungi, or are monokaryonic fungi just slow to grow?


INTERESTING!


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[real.eyes.realize.real.lies]
the only reality is the one you make of it, for in the end it becomes what it always was.
______________________________
:::anything above this line is a lie:::



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Anonymous

Re: 2 different strains in one jar? [Re: goatywoaty]
    #736032 - 07/10/02 10:04 AM (15 years, 21 days ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: 2 different strains in one jar? [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #736637 - 07/10/02 01:30 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

your post was saved by a conscientious phrozendata
this is an old question, and the blunt answer is :
Don't do it, it is a waste.
If you search around you can find a post from a few years ago where someone, forgive me I have forgotten who - I think it was a european, or perhaps workman.. -, had a caseing of pans overtaken by a strange contam: P. cubensis..


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.


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Offlinejdtwelve
newbie
Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 31
Loc: Central MI
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: 2 different strains in one jar? [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #736792 - 07/10/02 02:49 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

I recently had a similar experience- I cased 2 half pints, one B+ and the other Thailand (Koh Samui) together. I saw good mycelium growth, but pinning never started on that one. VERY soon, I got some of the green Gremlin. not a good thing. Maybe the cakes just didn't know what to do and stalled automatically.. that's my guess


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