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 BlueJay
Pan Man
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 307
Loc: Christs' peace patrol
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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 Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how...  [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1159620 - 12/21/02 05:34 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well Being I heard from the big boys that are my mentors I guess that mixing t3 and pr's have a very slim chance(but not impossible) of picking the fruit of the hybrid...I will not play with this experiment and now will focus on the 4 different Pan strains from around the world I have obtained...Thanks Anno and Teonan!!! I am sorry to force my hybrid theory on anyone but What the hell do I call the 3rd gen cube I have in the future...Nice rhizo myc but switches to fruit rather easily...with nice large fruits that are potent...I just will keep these spores to myself here on out and call them my strain. That way it doesnt pollute the true spores floating out there 'just in case the genetics did mix....Thank you to all the knowledge givers but not the hate throwers........
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Respect all, Fear None!
The Peacemaker
Cacti are my new life.....
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 em_bre_O
shroomery'sEmbryoticAsshole
Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 2,312
Loc: In the stages of develope...
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
#1160194 - 12/21/02 11:03 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: em_bre_O]
#1160299 - 12/21/02 12:24 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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You are absolutely right. Without a verifiable, reproducable, study, DOCUMENTED with pictures and DNA proof, this is all an educated assumption. There is more proof to support that this will occur then that it won't!!!!
I certainly don't think injecting spores of two strains into a jar of substrate is proof that it won't. I certainly don't think casing a tray with two different strains spawn is proof that it won't happen. Actually plating out monokaryons, mating them, and fruiting the resultant Dikaryons will be proof, verifiable by DNA for those that did not do the study. You still have to ASSUME when you view the study, that the scientist actually used the different STRAINS. They could just be lying. An assumtpion you would probably make when the evidence is presented to you. UNLESS YOU TRY IT, you will never be convinced. 
The information is being posted in case someone less skeptical/or even more skeptical then yourself, might decide to try it.
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Anonymous
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: i am e goldstein]
#1163285 - 12/22/02 06:46 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -
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SomeMycologist
some guy
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 203
Loc: Mycoland
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#1164924 - 12/23/02 11:25 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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have yo tryed
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If you cant beat them, join them, then beat them!
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Waldarbeiter
can you eat it?
Registered: 03/07/02
Posts: 189
Loc: woods of lower bavaria
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlueJay]
#1171130 - 12/26/02 08:19 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I saw some guys at the shroomery's having microscopes . They did pics of single spores... they are the ones to bring two different spores together on agar...
Also the easier method of crossing two diff. strains is xplained in Stamet's "Mushroom Cultivator"
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MirrorImage
newbie
Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 50
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: ]
#2455532 - 03/20/04 08:18 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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nice explanations m8 - be interested in any further info you have on this subject.:)
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spadlishus7
GEARHEADLIKEAMOFO
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 240
Loc: YO MAMA BIOTCH
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#2455568 - 03/20/04 08:33 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DreaMaTrix said:
Have you tried this??
I would like to cross Pink Buffalo and Penis Envy, I would call it Pink Penis or Buffalo Penis, not sure which. 
OMG I can't stop
laughing!!!!!!
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: spadlishus7]
#2455645 - 03/20/04 08:59 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Personally, I think penis envy is just such a 'hybrid'. Take a close look at it. . .
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Darkenshroom
PsychedelicExplorationist
Registered: 02/24/06
Posts: 683
Loc: I don't exist on this pla...
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5550928 - 04/24/06 12:15 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I know this is horrendous of me to do, but having come across this gem of a thread in the archives I thought I would give it a ressurection for the new generation of mycophiles who may have such questions..
Teonan laid it out here so well it should answer almost any questions regarding hybridizing strains.
So don't flame me for resurrecting an ancient post, I know its ancient but its good info that I think might interest alot of people.
Darken
*smiles*
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~The first and most important step in cultivation of the wonderful mushroom, is the cultivation of patience for without it you doom yourself to failure~
Edited by Darkenshroom (04/24/06 12:16 PM)
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,888
Loc: Puget Sound
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Darkenshroom]
#5551390 - 04/24/06 03:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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i also realize this is an old thread, but i'll shed some light on a real way to cross "strains" (not species) that i learned from Workman over at mycotopia.
Get a single spore isolate of the first strain you want to cross and transfer an agar wedge to some grains, let it almost fully colonize.
then dilute some spore solution of a different strain. inject this solution into the colonized grain.
the idea is that since the colonized grain is only colonized by a single spore isolate's mycelium, then the diluted spores you inject have a better chance of joining with this isolated mycelium rather than with a spore of its own strain. you'd have to REALLY dilute the 2nd solution, i mean use 1 drop of normal spore solution to 10cc of plain water, and shake ALOT or use an ultra-sonic bath (jewelry cleaner type thing) to break up any clumping spores.
even if the 2nd strain does join with eachother, remember that MOST of the mycelium in the jar WILL be a cross.
why?
the jar was first fully colonized by monokaryotic mycelium, so once it starts to fruit, you know that at the VERY VERY least you'll get atleast one crossed fruit.
if you dont believe me check out Workman's PF-albino/Costa Rican cross and his PF-albino/Penis envy crosses over at mycotopia.
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#5584670 - 05/03/06 07:23 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe someone can clarify the nomenclature for me, but I thought that A1+B2 and A2+B1 would be compatible mating types not A1+B1 and A2+B2 as indicated way back in this post...
Also talk of DNA proof is just silly IMHO. That's never going to happen and nobody in the mycological field demands that level of proof. The standard for proof of mating is observing clamp connections. You take single spore isolates, plate them together and observe any clamp connections or the lack thereof. If that culture produces fruit and spores then you have a cross.
Also talk of hybrids is not exactly correct. Hybrids are between different species such as a mule is a horse-donkey hybrid. There are many more examples in the plant world, but hybrids are almost always sterile. Intra-species mating produces a cross, not a hybrid.
One other note... I think a lot of spore vendors are pulling a lot of bullshit when it comes to claiming new strains. From the discussions here I think that they are just mucking up the genetics and obscuring the true lineage of the products they are selling. This is definitely detrimental to the science of mycology, if not downright dishonest.
To explain... If you take single-spore isolates of two separate strains and mate them you will come up with a cross. You are absolutely guaranteed that this is a new genetic combination never before seen. If you then take the progeny of that cross and breed it normally with itself for several generations you will have a true-breeding strain that can honestly be called it's own strain.
If on the other hand you mix strains A and B in a syringe or in a substrate... You have just lost the genetic identity of any progeny or future offspring of that mixture. You don't know if the spores you collect from the fruit are strain A, strain B, or an AxB cross! You have just lost any idea of it's true lineage. And there's no way to recover that information! You will never know who the parents are and it will forever be a bastard culture. All this does is muck around in the dark with the gene pool and create bunches of "new" "strains" that might not even really be crosses at all.
So if you don't have the equipment or know-how to do controlled mating experiments, please do them only for your own enjoyment and know that they will be always be bastards of unknown parentage. It's not hard to do it right. Even the cheapest kids microscope can spot individual spores. Simply dilute your spores enough so that you can pick them individually off of your agar (preferably before they even germinate). Always check them with a scope! Spores love to clump. Germinate individual spores on separate media, labeling what strain they came from, and mate them to your heart's content. It's that easy! All it takes is a $15 microscope and $15 worth of agar... That's not too much to ask of people that want to claim new strains is it?
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,615
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5585302 - 05/03/06 11:18 AM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I keep hearing the same claim that crossed strains are not really hybrids. Has anyone actually looked up the definition of a hybrid? It is not as restrictive as some people seem to think.
hy·brid (hī'brĭd)
n.
Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
I recently bought some hybrid tomato and corn seed and I don't think they were crossed with other species. Crossing two different varieties of cubensis is considered a hybrid under the above definition.
Most strains of cubensis are very similar in appearance making visual confirmation of a successful cross impossible. For this reason I have been using very distinct strains, such as the PF Albino and Penis Envy, as my parent stock.
Workman's Hybridization Experiments
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Research funded by the patrons of
The Spore Works
Exotic Spore Supply
My Instagram
Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification  
Edited by Workman (05/03/06 11:25 AM)
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5585537 - 05/03/06 12:15 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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I stand corrected. I would say though that hybrid implies more genetic dissimilarity than the term "cross". A cross is pretty generic in that you can apply it to almost any mating. I would say it only implies that it's not selfed. The term hybrid definitely means genetic dissimilarity though. There's quite a few "strains" that don't show enough variation to qualify as hybrids when crossed IMHO.
Nice link, looks like you did some good work. If you have a distinct phenotype like albinism you don't really need to use single spore isolates to prove a cross. I wasn't thinking along those lines since it doesn't really apply to vary many strains. As long as you can show some sort of Mendelian breakdown of distinct traits in the progeny you don't need to spend the time doing spore isolates. Nice work Workman.
-FF
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It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy
The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed
"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)
I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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thenewguy05
The Mushroom Man
Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 2,123
Loc: My Underground Layer
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5585571 - 05/03/06 12:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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i totally agree. i cross pollinate christmas cacti (pink and red) and they are considered hybrids. same with flowers, you hybridize flowers for a specific color or some other phenotype.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5585642 - 05/03/06 12:39 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said:
I keep hearing the same claim that crossed strains are not really hybrids. Has anyone actually looked up the definition of a hybrid? It is not as restrictive as some people seem to think.
hy·brid (hī'brĭd)
n.
Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
I recently bought some hybrid tomato and corn seed and I don't think they were crossed with other species. Crossing two different varieties of cubensis is considered a hybrid under the above definition.
Most strains of cubensis are very similar in appearance making visual confirmation of a successful cross impossible. For this reason I have been using very distinct strains, such as the PF Albino and Penis Envy, as my parent stock.
Workman's Hybridization Experiments
Interesting. So you consider a child born to a woman from france and a man from china a hybrid? I prefer the term 'interracial', but that's just me.
In my opinion, a 'hybrid' should be a bit more difficult to acheive than that. It's relatively easy to cross various strains of cubensis, with or without monokaryons, so I fail to see any real acheivement in doing so.
Species of fungi have been successfully crossed, so in my opinion, that ups the ante in what we/I call a hybrid. As I've said previously, others are free to disagree.
Personally however, I will not to claim any work I do as a hybrid until it's a cross species pairing.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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thenewguy05
The Mushroom Man
Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 2,123
Loc: My Underground Layer
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5585765 - 05/03/06 01:08 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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so if you could cross a cat and a dog then and only then would you consider it hybridizing???
so dogs such as a yellow lab and a chihuahua mate it's not a hybrid because it's still in the same species???
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,615
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: RogerRabbit]  1
#5585778 - 05/03/06 01:13 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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Technically, a French-Chinese child would be a hybrid by the definition posted, even if the term is considered distasteful when a applied to humans. Interracial is merely the politically correct term and I have never seen it commonly used for anything other than people of mixed ancestry.
It would be helpful to amend the hybrid designation with the level of hybridization. Such as varietal hybrid, interspecific hybrid, intergeneric hybrid, etc.
--------------------
Research funded by the patrons of
The Spore Works
Exotic Spore Supply
My Instagram
Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker
Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
Loc: Land of Oz
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: Workman]
#5585933 - 05/03/06 01:56 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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An interesting aspect on the "interracial hybrid", some studies were done on schools in Papua New Guinea. Turns out that the schools there were filled with a disproportionate amount of "hybrid" children(ie from mixed white and local parents). Supposedly they exhibit a degree of hybrid vigor - out performing both white/local children on average in many tests.
Quite cool 
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EonTan
bird
Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 468
Loc: very south
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Re: Crossing two strains IS possible..Heres how... [Re: fastfred]
#5587333 - 05/03/06 07:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago) |
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A1B1 monokaryons can mate with A2B2
A1B2 can mate with A2B1.
They just have to be different A and B factors.
A1B1 can also mate with A3B3, etc...............
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