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Gr0wer
always improving
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 6 years, 10 days
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how is a strain made?
#2679680 - 05/14/04 07:16 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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What made me think about this is penis envy which was a strain that was made, at least that what thehawkseye.com says. How would one go about making there own strain?? Would i just be isolating features by taking prints of that shroom and keep continuing the line of offspring that carry these traits? Or do you use chemicals and stuff to mutate the shrooms?
Edited by Gr0wer (05/15/04 12:05 AM)
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Transplant
Janitor
Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: how is a strain made? *DELETED* [Re: Gr0wer]
#2680191 - 05/14/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Transplant
-------------------- Will Screw For Shrooms
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Gr0wer
always improving
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 6 years, 10 days
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Transplant]
#2680723 - 05/15/04 12:04 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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?? are you joking??
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@cro
new name
Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 1,224
Loc: The PNW
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2681367 - 05/15/04 04:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hmm.... I don't really remember waht was written but I think this has something to do with what you are talking about.... Strains Peace - @cro edit: that url was fucking up the size
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Edited by @cro (05/15/04 12:22 PM)
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2681460 - 05/15/04 06:41 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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you would start by ignoring nearly everything you read on the Hawkseye website as it is all bullshit... A strain is a mixture of various phenotype expressions of one species - if you found a cubie in the wild that had naturaly selected its phenotypes it could take about 40 generations to really alter these significantly...
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Transplant
Janitor
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Re: how is a strain made? *DELETED* [Re: Zen Peddler]
#2681509 - 05/15/04 07:18 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Transplant
-------------------- Will Screw For Shrooms
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doc34
Fungitarian
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Re: how is a strain made? *DELETED* [Re: Transplant]
#2681512 - 05/15/04 07:22 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by doc34
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2681579 - 05/15/04 08:12 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post History Deleted Upon User's Request
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#2681582 - 05/15/04 08:14 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post History Deleted Upon User's Request
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Mycena
mycoexplorer
Registered: 05/02/03
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#2681788 - 05/15/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Im interested Bluemeanie can you justify that claim? or is 40 an arbitrary #
I was under the impression a 'strain' doesnt reall exist in our context, except for a few mutants like penis envy and PF classic Other than that what is grow are either isolates/clones or Spore races
Spore races are not strains as there is always some variation. maybe we should call them varieties as they seem to fit well with the concept of that like vegetable cultivars or even humans...
Broccoli for example is self infertile and in a variety you must have several compatibility factors to ensure outcrossing can occur. If the genetic base goes too low and these are lost the variety withers and cant reproduce or maintain vigour. Shrooms also need mating types to reproduce and these are mantained over the generations
Every dikaryon is therefore a hybrid, just like every Human and every broccoli plant
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NoG
journeyman
Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 98
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Mycena]
#2681857 - 05/15/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Think of shrooms as people how many strains of people do you think there are ? rofl
everyone is similar but have things unique to them for example finger prints, hair colour & type. eye colour, skin colour, height & weight. so does this make every individual a different strain ? no
a great NoG quote from one evening i was tripin
"we are all the same but different"
Later NoG
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spores
haploid
Registered: 02/18/99
Posts: 2,486
Loc: Washington
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Transplant]
#2681865 - 05/15/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I believe the fungi you're thinking of is yeasts, which is often used for cell biology/genetics research. While they are fungi, they're unicellular and have a much more simple life cycle than mushrooms, you aren't going to do 40 generations of a basidiomycete fungus on a single plate. Bluemeanie seems to be one of the more knowledgable members of this website when it comes to "advanced studies of mycology" and I think he knows more than you give him credit for... You on the other hand, it sounds like you just got the bio101 basics of yeast genetics and are extrapolating them to all the organisms in the entire kingdom... So if you do actually know of any instances where multicellular fungi have been used for (non-molecular) gene mapping studies and such things, post them and enlighten me . DH
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2681899 - 05/15/04 10:42 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Psilocybe cubensis is the species.
Gt is the spore race(Strain). Within GT there are many substrains(strains)(Dikaryons).
GT is a population of monokaryons. These monokaryons share certain traits that make them a Spore Race or strain. The individual monokaryons that mate and form the dikaryons that make the next generation of monokaryons, MUST have disimilar alleles on the Mating type loci. This is different then saying they are completely different, because they are not. They can still share enough genes to keep them as members of a SPORE RACE or STRAIN.
When two monokaryons do mate, and they are both from the same spore race, it is not a hybrid. They are only different at the mating type loci.
Mating a GT monokaryon with a EQ monokaryon would result in a hybrid dikaryon, that could potentially fuse nuclei, undergo meiosis, and produce hybrid spores. These spores would be the new spore race or strain.
Phenotypes are just the expression of the genotype in an environmnet. GT has many phenotypes, as do each and every spore race.
I use spore race interchangably with STRAIN. Referring to the population of individuals within a group. I use Strain interchangably with Substrain, reffering to the actual dikaryons(individulas of the population).
If you take a monokaryon from GT and mate it with a monokaryon from EQ, and this dikaryon forms spores, these new spores are a new STRAIN.
If you mate a monokaryon with a compatible monokaryon both from GT, you have not created a new strain(spore race) but you have created a new Substrain (Strain)of GT. This is inbreeding within a spore race. Compatability factors guarentees that dikaryons are not formed by monokaryons that have similar compatability factors. The monokaryons still share enough genetic traits that they remain GT. They STILL LOOK LIKE GT.
Mutation can occur all on it's own, or artificially. This could also lead to new spore races developing.
NO one has performed compatability tests between all the strains in circulation, so we don't know how similar or disimilar they all are.
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Gr0wer
always improving
Registered: 09/16/03
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: ]
#2682150 - 05/15/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think you guys are thinking strands, not strains, there are millions of strains but only 40 or so strains.
so basicly it owuld take allot of work to get a little bit diffrent strain but it is possible. the only thing is if you wanted to make a potent strain and did extractions comparing the content the environment and substrate would have to be identical to get good results.
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NugDumper
Member of theThird Eye Club
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Posts: 3,088
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2682198 - 05/15/04 12:33 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Do like the vendors and completely bullshit everyone and just start renaming your spores. Think about it.... South American.... looks alot like an EQ, oh wait, its the same fucking thing. hmmmm all the Thailand strains look nearly identitical and all suck the same ass.... oh wait, they are the same. Alot of these dumbass vendors put their own little names on shit... either they name it after the state they live in or come up with some bullshit name... Golden Teacher???? Can you be any more vague and less scientific?
THIS IS WHY YOU DONT MIX SCIENCE WITH BULLSHIT VENDOR BUSINESS.
-------------------- All that I need is the air that I breathe... and all that I need are things I don't need... and all that really matters is what matters to me me me... -Shannon Hoon Racism is schism on a serious tip! -Bradley Nowell
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2682202 - 05/15/04 12:34 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I am not confusing anything. The work is not that much. And the differences would be as significant as the difference between GT and EQ.
If you can't see a difference between the two strains, then yes, it is alot of work for nothing.
Some of us can see a difference between all the strains(races). Some of us can even see a difference between individuals within a Strain(race).
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doc34
Fungitarian
Registered: 02/14/04
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Loc: Myceliaville !!!
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: ]
#2682979 - 05/15/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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When I tried to explain that I was called stupid!But yet you are now trying to steal glory?
I know I didnt use the right words or the right approach,but the damn Idea was the same Teonan. I was told it couldnt be done and that I didnt know what I was talking about,but yet you just stated what I was trying to. What gives you the right to muffle me? Some people,man,some people!
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: ]
#2685509 - 05/16/04 03:03 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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toad - plaese dont reply or read my posts - they are far too intellectual for your small penis... Have a read of his sight- he tells us how his collegue fruited cubies off wood when they lack the enzymes to be able to do this without another nutrient base - he tells us that various panaeolus species are the 'second' or 'third' most potent in the world - when any one who has tried them and any woodlover can demonstrate this quite false - i could go on all day but i cannot be fucked - but suffice to say as far as vendors and their info - he is right up there with PF and that other old prick that got banned - forget his name now...
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2685529 - 05/16/04 03:11 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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What is a strand? The difference between two strains of a species is a human idea - in actual fact their genetics are highly variable and differ only because of environmental isolation. But if you wank every tuesday night at exactly 11:30pm and then praise the moon three times from below a willow tree your isolates will slowly mutate into an almighty wsuper strain that will be so potent that your balls will explode...
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doc34
Fungitarian
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#2685648 - 05/16/04 04:27 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Idiots-fucking idiots!Get your asses out of those books for a minute and try something for a change and you might see for yourself that "YOU""DONT" have all of the fucking answers to everything-you are not a mushroom god!Though I know you want to consider yourself as one-you are not,by far! You guy's told me it couldnt be done and that I was a dumbass for thinking so-but yet you turn right around and tell other ones the same damn thing I was trying to say and coming from your mouth it is fact?!Fuck you,you glory stealing bitches-I may not use the big words and yes I may copy and paste,but that doesnt make me wrong nor does it make me dumb,asshole! I said basically the same damn thing and now you say it is true!you are a two faced bitch in my book!
Edited by doc34 (05/16/04 04:47 AM)
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Gr0wer
always improving
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 6 years, 10 days
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2686402 - 05/16/04 12:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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why did you delete the post?
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doc34
Fungitarian
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Posts: 2,667
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2688019 - 05/16/04 06:03 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I dont want to spread stupid information,so I deleted my post!
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Gr0wer
always improving
Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 6,056
Loc: El Paso, TX
Last seen: 6 years, 10 days
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2688170 - 05/16/04 06:49 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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LOL, Your contimplating yourself by doing that. Anyways just chill out.
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2688911 - 05/16/04 09:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post History Deleted Upon User's Request
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Transplant
Janitor
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 77
Loc: Texas
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: spores]
#2689300 - 05/16/04 10:45 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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DH, I deleted posts due to your request for a free education. Although I was not going to respond and focus on other issues, I felt it would be rude to someone truly wanting to talk about mycology. Here is a link that should get you started. BTW, yeast was not used at my University for Pathogen Genetics, I guess we had the funds for real research that would have medical potential. http://www.fgsc.net/
BTW, my knowledge is far from advanced and if I did not make mistakes or knew all the answers, there would be no reason for me to be learning now on the shroomery, I would instead getting patents and curing a lot of illnesses.
-------------------- Will Screw For Shrooms
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2690121 - 05/17/04 03:54 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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thanks for the feedback there Doc but you mistaking me for someone who cares...
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doc34
Fungitarian
Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 2,667
Loc: Myceliaville !!!
Last seen: 9 months, 18 days
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Zen Peddler]
#2690240 - 05/17/04 04:50 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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you replied didnt you ? lmao
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spores
haploid
Registered: 02/18/99
Posts: 2,486
Loc: Washington
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Transplant]
#2690552 - 05/17/04 09:17 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Interesting link, thanks for posting and not taking things personally . All of those besides the coprinus are a lot more simple than mushrooms, so I don't quite see the parallels you were trying to make earlier but that's still pretty cool stuff . Peace, DH
Edited by DH (05/17/04 09:31 AM)
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Transplant
Janitor
Registered: 05/07/04
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Loc: Texas
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: spores]
#2690571 - 05/17/04 09:28 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't think I understand what I was trying to say also in the state of mind I was in. I am sure I caused confusion to more then just myself. My apologies.
-------------------- Will Screw For Shrooms
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NoG
journeyman
Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 98
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Transplant]
#2692788 - 05/17/04 06:50 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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woot im scottish and i struggle to fit so many swear words in one breath. You dudes needa chill lol.
Later NoG
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charvo
JOURNEYMAN
Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 654
Loc: In The Hand Of The World
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: NoG]
#2693023 - 05/17/04 07:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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doc34
Fungitarian
Registered: 02/14/04
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: Gr0wer]
#2695050 - 05/18/04 05:26 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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All I want to know is-would it be possible for a home cultivator to obtain a "new"strain,at home,in a kitchen? If so,what are the steps in doing just that?
Even if not,what are the steps?
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ragadinks
MrBeatle
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2695054 - 05/18/04 05:31 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, that would really be an interesting kind of "tek" ...
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doc34
Fungitarian
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Loc: Myceliaville !!!
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: ragadinks]
#2695185 - 05/18/04 07:20 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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It would indeed!
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YesItsMe
Homeless GOHOME !...
Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 253
Loc: Working for Piss ;...
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2695508 - 05/18/04 10:29 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
doc34 said: All I want to know is-would it be possible for a home cultivator to obtain a "new"strain,at home,in a kitchen?
Clear question , we would like a clear answer ! pliz
Any experts !
-------------------- God save the Queen
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Mycena
mycoexplorer
Registered: 05/02/03
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2695886 - 05/18/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Obtain though selection - maybe - probably yes obtain by design - prob no
The most you can do with any kitchen tek is to take a wild print or regular strain and sift through the matings and find the mutants and recessives
Albino strains for example
but you are not really making a new strain just deriving one If you want to amke it you need to separate all your nonokaryons, test incomapitbilities, reconstruct the genetic properties of the monokaryons by the characteristics of the cross matings and then take the monokaryons dsiplaying the traits you want and cross themn to obtain the stated outcome
this is the kind of program they used to turn the brown cold temperature Enoki into the commercial asian high temp white enokis in use today
prior to this they used the former technique of somatic selection and derivation of new strains by selection. this technique had reached its limits so the starins in circulation were used to intentionally breed new hybrids
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2697791 - 05/18/04 05:14 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I did not tell you that it could not be done.
It seems to me that you are acting more like a troll, then a contributing member, or even someone interested in learning.
There are many people here who have alot of information to share. It seems that most of these people if not all of them are ignored, or disrespected by newer members that lack any information to share, and seem more interested in arguing then learning.
Because people use words you consider big, doesn't make them arrogant, or snobby, it just makes explanations easier. It helps to use the proper terminology to get a point across. It also makes learning easier, becasue simply trying to define terms you don't understand will help you learn the entire process being discussed. If we use a word like Dikaryon, and you don't know what it is, you look it up. Next time you try and discuss something, you know the proper terminology.
Dikaryon is a word that relates to a specific event in MYCOLOGY. It does not relate to an event in animal biology. It is not a big word for the sake of big words, it is as simple as CAT or DOG. It is just a word. Trying to explain it's meaning, would require the use of lots of other BIG words, and woulod lead to more confusion.
You make NEW strains by bringing monokaryons from two existing STRAINS together to form a third strain that has equal parts of the two other strains. A haploid nuclei from one sytrain comes under the same roof as a haploid nuclei from another strain. If and when these two nuclei fuse together and undergo meiosis, you have recombination of the A factors of the two different strains, and recombination of the B factors of the two strains. YOU NOW HAVE COMBINATIONS OF GENES THAT DID NOT EXIST TOGETHER, BEFORE YOU PUT THEM TOGETHER.
You have a strain from America mating with a Strain from Australia, combining genes from these two different Strains together. THAT IS A NEW STRAIN. IT may or may not be stable.
A strain is a group of individuals homozygous for certain traits. This means in the fungal world, that the mating type factors are different, but other genes are shared. So no two identical monokaryons mate, but the group of disimilar monokaryons share certain traits that make them a population of a STRAIN.
Taking a single Strain(print) and doing all work from that single print is SELECTION. Bringing monokaryons from two different strains together in a controlled way is hybridization, and it leads to NEW strains.
New strains also come about in nature by isolation. A strain is introduced into a new environmnet, and begins inbreeding in that location, over time, it will favor individuals that produce best in that climate(selection) or new alleles may arrise through mutation of existing individuals which can lead to new Strains arrising from the population.
So if you want to breed for potency, you have to isolate the BEST monokaryons from a Strain(selection) and mate them with the best Monokaryons from another strain, and MAYBE the HYBRID Strain will possess the Trait for High potency, and it will have been put into a NEW STRAIN. But even if the trait is in the new strain, you still have to isolate(select) for the best individulas.
In essence you have to work with monokaryons to have any control over the outcome of the dikaryon.
So you are both right and wrong.
If a strain is pure it is homozygous for certain traits, but can still be very heterozygous for lots of other traits. Since we are defining a strain as a population of individuals that share traits, they are homozygous and pure.
All GT will resemble each other coming from a single print. This appearance may change due to environmnetal influence, but the changes will be uniform across the entire population. GT grown on RYE at a certain temp, etc... may look different from GT grown on Millet, but the individuals will look similar to each other on the same substrate in the same environmnet. The heterozygosity means that certain individulas will be permorming better then others, and this is where selection becomes important.
Selection is picking the best individulas in the group for your particular environmnet. Making new strains is a combination of selection and hybridization, or mutation.
And I thought you were leaving this lame site.
the purest strains of pot still show variability, they are just Pure for certain traits, like high potency. But even though they are all higher potency, some will be more potent then others. THERE IS STILL VARIABILITY.
Discounting GT as being something unique from EQ is WRONG. They are different. We just don't know how different they are. They may share one common ancestor, or they may have different ancestors all together.
Lets theorize for a second.
Lets imagine that Lipa Ya is the mother of all cubensis. It would have a common mating type loci with all other cubenis. Only 3/4 of all mating with any other cubensis would work. Only 1/4 of all matings with itself would work. Lets imagine that it had no relation to a few cubenis strains, then 100 % of the matings would be succesful with any of the cubensis it was not related too.
This is what needs to be determined to KNOW how related all the cubensis strains are. We need to perform compatability studies within each Strain, and between each strain. Once we know ancestory then a good breeding strategy can be done. NEW STRAINS of superoir peformance can be Manufactured, and selected for. Manufactured in the sense that you are doing the selections and bringing the monokaryons together.
If you want to be a stickler for EXACTNESS, there is absolutely nothing in the world that is made by man. Even the most synthesized shit on the planet has it's origins in something made by GOD or Nature or whatever creation philosophy you subscribe to. Whe just bring things to gether that would never come together, or alter them in ways they would never be altered.
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doc34
Fungitarian
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: ]
#2697998 - 05/18/04 05:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Can We be Friends now?
Thank you for the explaination.
I am not a troll(may smell like one every now and then)! I was leaving until now! This site isnt lame. I'm right and wrong?I can deal with that! I do try to contribute what I can. I am learning!
I just thought that I may be able to put my signature on a new strain,and yes I get mad at times(genetic flaw?)But I mean well. Even though The only part I got out of that was"seperate your krayon's". It will take me while but I'll be back with a few new words in my vocabulary,of course with their definitions too! I guess I have some studying to do!
Thank you Mycena , and Teonan ,for your replies,they are in my fav's so I dont forget!!!
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YesItsMe
Homeless GOHOME !...
Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 253
Loc: Working for Piss ;...
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: ]
#2700054 - 05/19/04 05:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thank u Teonan
-------------------- God save the Queen
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Anonymous
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Re: how is a strain made? [Re: doc34]
#2705074 - 05/20/04 10:14 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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