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Invisibleretread
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Mating Strains
    #3037670 - 08/22/04 10:39 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

For two biological entities to be grouped in the same species, they must be able to mate and produce fertile offspring. Using this simple fact of biology, why is it that people recommend against mixing spores of different strains? Couldn't strains be mixed the way they are with cannabis sativa plants? They should be able to, if they are truely the same species.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3037828 - 08/22/04 11:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

mushrooms reproduce asexually


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: TODAY]
    #3037909 - 08/22/04 11:39 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Oh? Aren't carpophores the sexual body of the fungus? I don't think that the kariotic mating process is "asexual".


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3038112 - 08/23/04 12:59 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

They're not asexual.

There is a full sexual cycle involved.


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InvisibleSubGen1us
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3038195 - 08/23/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

1 spore can grow the mycelium. but u need a second spore to have a fruitbody.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: SubGen1us]
    #3038407 - 08/23/04 03:25 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SubGen1us said:
1 spore can grow the mycelium. but u need a second spore to have a fruitbody.


A second compatible spore of the same strain otherwise the clamp connection cannot occur (fact). Just the way it is sorry bro.


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Offlinepsiloz
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3038885 - 08/23/04 10:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nothings ever as simple as that with Fungi

several basidiomycetes have been fruited from monokaryons
but the fruit bodies are often smaller

IMHO the reason why people recommend against it and why theres nothing but hearsay about is that no-one here has done it to actually see. All opinions based pretty much on extrapolation from theory

Isolating monokaryons is actually quite involved (need microscopes etc) and those with the knowledge, equipmenst and time normally arent the ones with the motivation to work on Cubensis - hence the reason why we all have to extrapolate using other species...

Just do it and report if you get anything notable
Try mixing two very distinctive strains so its easier to spot the intermediates


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: hyphae]
    #3039216 - 08/23/04 01:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

SubGen1us said:
1 spore can grow the mycelium. but u need a second spore to have a fruitbody.


A second compatible spore of the same strain otherwise the clamp connection cannot occur (fact). Just the way it is sorry bro.




Any links or evidence of this statement, which contracts the entire principle of nomenclature and species grouping?


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3039736 - 08/23/04 03:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Gene splicing is a way to hybrid in mushroom culture. I've seen several multi strain casings produce multiple strains never mutating. There was one example where there were 5 strains innoculated and only 2 actually fruited bc they were the most vigorous. Here is a good study done by Penn State


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InvisibleHarveyWalbanger
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3040084 - 08/23/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The odds of 2 diffrent strains making the sex matches and then taking over the entire jar is improbable. Heres some reading material... especially with basic limits like clumping...

basic spore info

the long debated strain mixing


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: TODAY]
    #3040194 - 08/23/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i believe it is still asexual...1 parent shroom is needed to produce offspring, unlike two parent marijuana plants.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: TODAY]
    #3040289 - 08/23/04 06:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TODAY said:
i believe it is still asexual...1 parent shroom is needed to produce offspring, unlike two parent marijuana plants.



A spore is an asexual "seed" that contains no endosperm. Agreed


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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3042819 - 08/24/04 06:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

a crossbreeding program would go something like this...first, dilute 1 or 2 drops from a standard spore syringe into about 150ml sterile water, use this to make 10 or so syringes, do this for each of your 2 strains...innoculate 100 or so petris for each strain, incubate...at first sign of germination, subculture all germination points to seperate petris...at 2-3 germination points in each petri, you could easily end up w/ 200+ petris for each of 2 strains...once these start to colonize, you will need to make backups, at least 3-4 petris of each isolate to prevent loss from contams, etc...this will give you 600+ petris for each strain, a total of over 1200 petris...at this point you will need a high power microscope and the ability to make good slides...make a slide of each isolate & check for clamp connections...if these are present, the isolate is dikaryon, monokaryons will not have clamp connections...throw out dikaryons, keep monokaryons...this will somewhat reduce your petri collection...now the fun part...once your monokaryon isolates have colonized, subculture isolates of the 2 strains together in the same petri...make 3-4 petris for each attempted mating for backups...once these start to colonize, subculture the mated mycellium into yet more petris w/ backups...once again, make slides of each culture & check them w/ the microscope for clamp connections, which indicate a dikaryon which hopefully has the ability to fruit...throw out any cultures lacking clamp connections...now you can innoculate each culture into 3-4 half pints of sterilized grain or etc...obviously this will give you a fair number of jars...let colonize, leave substrate in jars & case, put into fruiting chambers...probably 3-4 large rubbermaid tubs w/ inviromental controls would be sufficient...hopefully most of these will fruit, clone the best 10 fruiting strains onto multiple petris...innoculate these into 3-4 quarts of sterilized grain or etc, let colonize, case & fruit in trays, use several trays per strain for backup...check for eveness of pinset, spore production, yield, etc...keep subculturing & fruiting until you are left w/ one very exceptional fruiting strain, make multiple culture slants & store...congratulations, you now have a hybrid strain! Obviously this is a hell of a lot of work & a major pain in the ass...


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Invisibleretread
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: SubGen1us]
    #3043675 - 08/24/04 12:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Thats about what I was thinking of doing. However, when it comes down to it, I don't think that any strain has any attributes that make it more or less "better" for the home cultivator. If you like nipply-caps, go with an Asiatic strain, if you like rounder caps, pick a different one. If one strain was totally immune to any contaminiation, could colonize 10x it's mass in substrate in 4 hours, and had 8x the potency of regular cubes, then it would be worth it. I don't think that their is enough of a difference in strains to really make this worth while. I am, however, considering opening my own spore vendor company and it would be nice to offer strains that have never been available before.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: SubGen1us]
    #3045312 - 08/24/04 07:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You could do a much easier crossbreeding program than you suggest SubGen1us. You don't need that many petris or a microscope.

Just dilute your spore solution so that you get 4-5 colonies per plate. Pick them before they grow into each other, and place ones from each strain next to each other on petris. If you get a strong sector coming from the intersection of the colonies then there is a good chance that you have a mate. If there is a dividing line then there was no mate. If they just grow together then the result is indeterminate.

Sure, it's not as precise as looking for clamp connections, but it's a heck of a lot easier to do. The key is seeing a change in the morphology, then you know that a mate has almost certainly occurred.


-FF


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Re: Mating Strains [Re: fastfred]
    #3047282 - 08/25/04 03:43 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You guys are funny! :lol:


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OfflineWorf
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: retread]
    #3049789 - 08/25/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

mushrooms are both aesexual and sexual. in the sexual reproduction they have two stages plasmogamy and karyogamy.

plasmogamy is the fusion of the two parents' cytoplasm when their mycelia come together.

karogamy is the fusion of the nuclei of the two parents.

But plasmogamy and karyogamy can be seperated in time by hours, days, or years, or even centuries.

Ok, so lets say that some mycelium from the different strains did mate and made some more mycelium. The chances that particular mycelium will turn into a mushroom and give off spores is really really low. But it is possible if that makes you happy =]


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: Mating Strains [Re: Worf]
    #3050258 - 08/25/04 10:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It should also be noted that just because clamp connections are present, it does not mean the "hybrid mycelium" has the ability to fruit.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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