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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1309066 - 02/15/03 02:27 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1309076 - 02/15/03 03:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

And? Same with the print of the cloned mushroom.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1309191 - 02/15/03 05:15 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I understand what you are saying.

Joshua


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1309200 - 02/15/03 05:23 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think we need Teonan here.....

Teonan ! !


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Invisiblespores
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1309888 - 02/15/03 01:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Josh,

Just a minor point but, the 2 nuclei do not fuse (karyogamy)after plasmogamy, but continue growth as a dikaryotic, binucleate organism.  Division at this stage usually proceeds by clamp connections.  As you said later in your post, it's not until the gills are formed that certain dikaryotic cells (the
developing basidia) undergo karyogamy to create diploid cells.  Very shortly after this meiosis occurs and haploid spores are generated from those cells.  The diploid phase in basidiomycetes is very short and only occurs in the spore bearing part of the fruit body.  The faster growing mycelium is dikaryotic and not diploid.  Good post though :smile: .

Peace

DH 


Edited by DethHed (02/15/03 01:49 PM)


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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1309922 - 02/15/03 02:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Exalent reading thanks for taking the time :smile: very good thread.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: spores]
    #1310104 - 02/15/03 04:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Good point. I was confused about the term dikaryotic v. diploid. You have cleared this up for me.

Joshua


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: TeRzMaStA]
    #1310167 - 02/15/03 05:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It would be like the difference of taking a skin sample from me which would contain my exact genetic make up or a semen sample which does only contain the limited amount of genes I could pass on but still has many more genetic variations.




Not totally sure how this works in mushrooms, but for humans, you are mistaken. A DNA sample from a skin cell contains 100% of your genetic information. A semen cell (or a female's egg cells) contains only 1/2 of your genetic information, a random selection from from each pair. A complete semen sample could contain your complete genetic makeup, but each cell would still only contain 1/2. A semen sample will never contain more genetic variety then your DNA because you cannot produce additional genes. This is why inbreeding leads to deformed children, the lack of genetic variation.
I hope that was clear.  :smile:

jssmthrfcknchrst 


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1310254 - 02/15/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think Joshua's point was that the continued isolation or cloning of the mushroom whereby the same exact genetic information is used for generations is creating a bottleneck situation. This is because one particular set of genetic information is being continually propagated and the diversity of one spore-match's genetics are limited.
This would be circumvented by using a print from the cloned mushroom - where you would no longer be in a bottleneck situation due to the genetic diversity contained in the various spore. Thus returning to spore-match competition.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1312704 - 02/16/03 09:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Awsome topic.. this is by far the best thread I have read in a long long time.

So for isolation, taking a section of mycelium or cloning would be done,
to keep diversity, a print must be taken, and
to increase diversity you could mix several prints from several mushrooms.


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1312939 - 02/17/03 12:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i am far from being a mycologist and so like some of the analogies being used here
Joshua said
"A bottleneck event is an event in which the genetics of a population is reduced greatly. Imagine 100 people are left on the Earth. Only the genes from these 100 people will be present in future generations. If all of these people were
Eskimos, the future progeny would appear as Eskimos. You would lose all other races."
then it was said
"A complete semen sample could contain your complete genetic makeup, but each cell would still only contain 1/2. A semen sample will never contain more genetic variety then your DNA because you cannot produce additional genes. This is why inbreeding leads to deformed children, the lack of genetic variation.I hope that was clear."

if there is only 100 eskimos then their children will be eskimos. so if i grow PFs there "children" should be PFs. if the eskimo children's parents try to vary every time will there be more genetic diversity? if yes, then if i grow 100 PF mushrooms and take prints is there any advantage to mixing up all 100 prints and starting multispores with that. is a spore print like a semen sample? so if i get one print and grow 100 shrooms and mix the spores is it the same as inbreeding the shrooms since the spores all came from the same "father"? is there any advantage to crossing strains, like mixing PF spores with GTs, or better still mixing all the different available cubensis strains so there is a better chance of the spores mixing. is growing a single strain a "bottleneck event" as there are no "other races" there to lose to begin with? is it better to start spores out on substrate that you plan to grow them all on. if i clone an eskimo who thrives on fish and then change his diet he may get unhealthy. i have asked this further back but got no replies, if planning on growing on rye would with liquid innoculant would it be better to start your spores in a liquid broth of rye flour since the spores that prefer rye should dominate the solution?
i hope i havent offended any eskimos :smile:


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OfflineCurious_George
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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: blackout]
    #1313343 - 02/17/03 07:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Would this not take centuries before it becomes a problem??

Isolate or not, as long as it produces better/more even/heavier flushes, i still don't see it being a problem.

How many generations of clones would it take to totally weird out a strain???

Have any of you witnessed it before??

I've heard of albino shrooms etc.... how frequent is this?

cg


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: blackout]
    #1313883 - 02/17/03 12:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

As Anno pointed out to me it is only the original print from a wild specimen that produces a true bottleneck event. Any isolation from those spores would only reduce the genetic variability slightly from the wild print.

I think this is what you were trying to point out to me Anno.

__________________________________________

Blackout-

if the eskimo children's parents try to vary every time will there be more genetic diversity?

Yes. This actually occurs in human population. Humans release pheremones (airborn chemical signals) that are perceived by the human body. You are more likely to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex who emits pheremones different than yours. Pheremones are a genetic trait that will vary less between people of close getetic relation.

if yes, then if i grow 100 PF mushrooms and take prints is there any advantage to mixing up all 100 prints and starting multispores with that.

No. It would be like mixing 100 of your sperm samples together v. one of your sperm samples. The sample came from the same source therefor, either sample contains the same genetic variability.

What would be beneficial to maintain genetic diversity in your shroom population is to periodically mix in wild prints from the same strain.

Agriculturists use this principle to genetically modify wheat crops. Many wheat strains have been cultured for so long they may lose the advantage of genetic diversity. A specific wheat crop may be unable to fight off a certain bug because it lacks the gene that makes the wheat toxic to the bug. There may be a wild strain of wheat that has this gene for toxicity to the bug. Geneticists will cross the domestic strain w/ the wild strain in hopes of obtaining a hybrid strain that has the favorable characteristics of the domestic strain and the immunity to the bug from the wild strain.

so if i get one print and grow 100 shrooms and mix the spores is it the same as inbreeding the shrooms since the spores all came from the same "father"?

Yes. Certain species are more sensitive to inbreeding than others. It may take P. cubensis 1000 inbreed matings before noticeable mutations occur, whereas humans can show noticeable mutatations after 1-2 inbreedings. The royal family in Russia had/has hemophilia due to inbreeding. They wanted to keep their royal blood pure and only wed to other Royal families. This led to the high prevolence of hemophilia w/i the Russian Royal family.

is there any advantage to crossing strains, like mixing PF spores with GTs, or better still mixing all the different available cubensis strains so there is a better chance of the spores mixing.

It depends on how much work you put into it. I believe Stamets says that about 1 in 1000 Oyster hybrids are more vigorous than their parental strains. These hybrids are direct matings of different strains. Mixing spores would rely on random matings which would mean you would need to do a lot of testing to find that one hybrid strain in one-thousand that is a better strain.

is growing a single strain a "bottleneck event" as there are no "other races" there to lose to begin with?

Yes. As soon as you take that first wild print, you have removed a significant ammount of genetic variation available for future matings. See my first statement of this post.

is it better to start spores out on substrate that you plan to grow them all on. if i clone an eskimo who thrives on fish and then change his diet he may get unhealthy. i have asked this further back but got no replies, if planning on growing on rye would with liquid innoculant would it be better to start your spores in a liquid broth of rye flour since the spores that prefer rye should dominate the solution?

Maybe. The idea is good. However the enzymes used to digest the nutrients that the mushrooms use will work on rye, rice, straw....etc. I think your method would help, but so little it would be hard for you to notice. It is not good to grow the same strain out on the same substrate very many times. The mycelium may not be able to get all of the nutrients it needs from a single substrate.


___________________________________________

I am a student w/ limited knowledge regarding these topics. Please take my information as such.

Joshua


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1313981 - 02/17/03 12:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

good info. But what is the solution? Say you had a single print, domestic.. incoculated several jars, and birthed each one seperatly. Due to probability, most will be different from each other and all should be different from their parent. Then mixing several prints from several different casings/cakes would increase the probability of diversity, Right? And since your only taking prints from the best of each casing/cake you are generally taking better traits (but also increasing the chance that they are the same as from the other casing). But essentially doing this over time would better the traits while remaining diverse. Or would this only maintain the diversity not increase it?

Also, If you are selecting prints from the best, why is it so helpfull to isolate? Just higher probability of creating a quality mushroom? Doesn't make much sense though. Doesn't a cloned mushroom have the same spores as the one it was cloned from?

Sorry for all the questions, it's just a really interesting topic, but rather confusing.


Edited by ExtravagantDream (02/17/03 12:40 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1314038 - 02/17/03 12:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314060 - 02/17/03 12:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

How long would it take an isolate to senescing?


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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1314142 - 02/17/03 01:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: Anno]
    #1314297 - 02/17/03 02:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Both prints won't be identical. They will both be random assortments of the genes of both donor nuclei from the original Dikaryon.

Both will be equally diverse, but equally limited as well. Limited in the sense that they are spores coming from the same ORIGINAL DIKARYON.

Diversity is Combining spores from as MANY DIKARYONS as posible. All of which is IRRELEVANT, because the RACES in cirulation are at best the product of 10 individuals removed from a population. How many ORIGINAL WILD PRINTS are the donors for all the STRAINS in cirulation? How many EQ prints were originally used, how many GT?

If all the printsfor a given Strain in circulation are the product of the random assortment of a single Dikaryon in the wild, DIVERSITY is non-existent, compared with the WILD STRAIN(RACE), which itself is the product of a limited number of individuals originating from another STRAIN, which is the product of another group of limited individuals originating from another STRAIN. All Strains are the product of POSSIBLY a single random mutation that created a SINGLE individual, that was from a Limited population of a STRAIN of another SPECIES.

Random assortment maintains alittle diversity, but nothing compared to the interaction of haploid myceilum within a population of MANY individuals. I.E spores of one dikaryon potentially mating with spores of 100,000 different dikaryons.

It is always better to Be picking from a population of 100 individuals, then a population of 1.

Expanded. It is better to be picking a single dikaryon formed from a population of 100 different dikaryons, then picking a single dikaryon from a population originating from 1 dikaryon.

100 prints from 100 dikaryons of a single strain, mixed into a syringe is more diverse then taking a 100 prints from a single Dikaryon from a single strain and mixing those into a syringe. Both are VERY DIVERSE. But the former has more DIVERSITY because it originated from more then a single INDIVIDUAL within a Strain.

Strain EQ from vendor 1, EQ from vendor 2, EQ from vendor 3 a print each all mixed together in a syringe is more diverse then just mixing 3 prints of Vendor1 EQ into a syringe.



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Anonymous

Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ]
    #1314360 - 02/17/03 02:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

ANNO is correct.

A print from a clone is as diverse as a print from a Multispore Dikaryon originating from the same Print. THEY are the same.

Diversity is only increased when the multispore is made up of Spores from MANY DIKARYONS.


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Re: Getting a strain isolate without agar ?? [Re: ]
    #1314594 - 02/17/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

>Diversity is only increased when the multispore is made up of Spores from MANY DIKARYONS.


So this would translate to:
Diversity is only increased when the multispore inoculation is made with several prints at once and the prints itself being from different multispore cultivations(=not from the same clone)


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